OUYA: A $99 Android console meant to open up console gaming

[Crowbar Man]

Nexus 7 also doesn't have a controller.

Controllers relatively are dirt cheap, they are only marked up high by console manufacturers to return huge profits to offset the loss of the cost of hardware.

As far as shipping, they dont have to ship to stores at first like most products (not sure if they ever plan on shipping to stores?), Im pretty sure only the Kickstarters are getting shipping free anyways. When the console gets released, you'd be paying for shipping

I really do not think they plan on manufacturing a million units any time soon. They only need enough to cover preorders and the Kickstarter for launch

Without knowing how much they had on hand before Kickstarter and how much they may obtain afterwards, its kinda hard to tell if they can pull all this off, but it will be a challenge for sure.

But a lot of people seem to be under the impression that A) Kickstarter is where ALL their capital is coming from and They are going to launch like a standard console

Neither are true

Since when is Mojang a big name? They made a successful game. Doesn't make them a "big name". They're a pretty small company.

I said big and small. Regardless, Mojang has a lot of money to play around with right now for an indie. Their name is pretty huge in the Indie circle and well beyond.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[The Derrit]

so, three things to add here.

1. if they sell the system at a loss they're NOT going to make it back in game profits and licensing costs because the entire point of this goddamn system is to have really low licensing costs to give profit to the indie developers. that point is moot. you can't really play that one from both sides.

2. i've seen this in multiple places, ouya has said they're not looking for other investors outside kickstarter. they clearly had money before it happened but unless something changed they're not raising anymore after it.

3. four of the companies you listed i've even heard of before, and twitchtv and onlive literally have to do nothing except say 'okay you can stream from our website, just give us money when you do it.' that's not a large investment on their part. and namco is in 'active discussions.' kind of the same way every third party developer is in 'active discussions' with nintendo before not putting any games on their system.

and four just for you crowbar, that was it. except you got all butthurt over me saying one of your favorite indie games was pointless. the issue being you completely missed the clear implication that we were talking about business, because you were too busy boiling over and crying that i insulted your favorite game, which i didn't even do. that was where the discussion devolved.

[Crowbar Man]

1. if they sell the system at a loss they're NOT going to make it back in game profits and licensing costs because the entire point of this goddamn system is to have really low licensing costs to give profit to the indie developers. that point is moot. you can't really play that one from both sides.

Well, really low does not mean none at all. Theres a difference between charging developers a small fee (like $99/year for iOS and $25 for Android) and requiring tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars per game license (XBLA/PSN).

Also theres a huge difference in how much money they need to "make back" off these units compared to the big guys. They dont need to make back tons of RD for custom expensive chip designs and/or new media formats, nor do they need to make back money from millions of units they created at LESS THAN COST which is what MS/Sony do at launch.

But since we dont know if they are making profit or not at $99 I couldn't tell you. I doubt they are charging less than cost though

And I can play from any side I want. You aren't the boss of me!

2. i've seen this in multiple places, ouya has said they're not looking for other investors outside kickstarter. they clearly had money before it happened but unless something changed they're not raising anymore after it.

Well, I've pointed out the Kickstarter isn't really their funding capital. So we are in agreement there i guess?

And they said they weren't going to run out and contact venture capitalists immediately after the Kickstarter.. but I wouldn't say "never" in the future.

four of the companies you listed i've even heard of before

Well at least you admit you don't know about the indie scene. !

Doesn't really matter if YOU dont know about them, they exsist, have popular games, and have pledged some sort of support for the console. It doesn't matter what "investment" they have. If they are publicly speaking with Ouya and putting their name out, they would not consider it a con wouldn't you think? Same goes for SE and Namco Bandai. Why would they be announcing anything, at all, if it was a complete con? Whether a product comes out is irrelevant (but since they already have android products out, why would they not?)

and four just for you crowbar

JUST FOR MEEE!

As far as the conversation you are still trying to backpedal out of, but for some reason bringing up again, anybody can see if they read this thread you are full of it and that wasn't what we were talking about. Keep trying to backpedal but you aren't doing a good job of it. I wouldn't bring it up again, it just makes you look odd

FYI (Since you seem to have blocked it out of memory): The conversation at that point was about developers making games with low/no budgets. How this directly related to Ouya's costs of producing a game system, and why you insist you were talking about this when you said Cave Story was a waste of time to be made when it was released free, I have no idea. The conversations are almost completely unrelated, and I can't figure out how you are linking them, and how you still think you are in the right either way.

Oh and uh I dont think Cave Story is just "my" favorite game. I'm pretty sure a large portion of the gaming community, especially people who play indies, has it as one their favorites, including the people who called you out on your BS here at OCR.

If you havn't played it, maybe you should? Then feel bad for what you said Mister.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Dhsu]

Don't waste your time, Crowbar, it's not worth it.

With regard to investors, Uhrman explicitly states in the Kickstarter video that they got some funding from "friends and family" which in this case includes the founders of Digg, Flixster, and Jawbone. In addition, she only said they weren't going to be seeking outside funding while the Kickstarter was going, so it's entirely possible there have been further talks since then.

Edit: Well here's something I wasn't aware of.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Dhsu

[Newt]

I really do not think they plan on manufacturing a million units any time soon. They only need enough to cover preorders and the Kickstarter for launch

They need to sell enough units to make their platform worthwhile to acknowledge for developers. 70k is an exceptionally low number. At that number, even 'major hits' would likely not provide any return on investment. Especially with free-to-play numbers.

You realize that $0.25 ARPU is pretty good for free-to-play, right? Let's be generous and say that they get $0.50 ARPU and /saturate/ the market (which is essentially impossible, especially with a non-zero number of people who want one only to play SNES games). That's only $35k for a miracle game.

Games cost more than that to make. If even the unicorns can't make back their opportunity cost, why would anyone bother with it?

[Dhsu]

Ouya games aren't required to be completely free to play though, only to have at least some free gameplay. Devs are allowed to set their own prices.

Of course no one would bother with Ouya if they had to pick a single marketplace, but as a few have pointed out it would generally take little to no effort to port your existing game over. With no licensing fees, there's no reason NOT to have your game on the Ouya.

[Brushfire]

Cave Story is a terrible game anyway. Modern Warfare 3 was way better.

[Crowbar Man]

They need to sell enough units to make their platform worthwhile to acknowledge for developers. 70k is an exceptionally low number. At that number, even 'major hits' would likely not provide any return on investment. Especially with free-to-play numbers.

That would be true if A) this was a major console release it wasn't aimed at Indies C) Android didn't already exist and didn't have a huge amount of developers already

You realize that $0.25 ARPU is pretty good for free-to-play, right? Let's be generous and say that they get $0.50 ARPU and /saturate/ the market (which is essentially impossible, especially with a non-zero number of people who want one only to play SNES games). That's only $35k for a miracle game.

Well thats just the initial batch numbers, you act as if nobody will ever buy one in the future. Also as Dhsu pointed out, those numbers only if your game is completely "Free to Play" which is not required (minimum requirement is a free demo). Also you are not considering that is on top of the numbers you are already making off of Google Play if you already have the game on the Android platform.

Games cost more than that to make. If even the unicorns can't make back their opportunity cost, why would anyone bother with it?

Uh, as previously discussed, depends on the game/developer really. If you've spent next to nothing making the game, getting anything back is profit.

I really don't get why people keep ignoring that this is an Indie game console and the fact Google Play exists. I keep making these same statements but doesn't seem to click with anybody :/

Edited August 30, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Newt]

Uh, as previously discussed, depends on the game/developer really. If you've spent next to nothing making the game, getting anything back is profit.

I really don't get why people keep ignoring that this is an Indie game console and the fact Google Play exists. I keep making these same statements but doesn't seem to click with anybody :/

I don't know of a game that can be put to market in less than three man-months and no outside resources. Opportunity cost is a cost; if a developer isn't at least making that back, it's not fiscally responsible for them to create games.

"Has games that you could play on your phone/tablet" is not the draw of the system. "Has a real controller" is a draw. There is /literally/ no reason to get one if games on it wont make reasonable use of the controls -- the only benefit you get from it.

I fail to see how "it's an indie console" means "developers ignore money". Business is business.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I really don't get why people keep ignoring that this is an Indie game console and the fact Google Play exists. I keep making these same statements but doesn't seem to click with anybody :/

The market demographic is too small for Ouya to sustain itself.

You can't say "But this is for indies!" and have magical money fall down from the sky as God's special funding for indie games/system.

It's not "not clicking with anybody", it doesn't change anything.

JUST FOR MEEE!

As far as the conversation you are still trying to backpedal out of, but for some reason bringing up again, anybody can see if they read this thread you are full of it and that wasn't what we were talking about. Keep trying to backpedal but you aren't doing a good job of it. I wouldn't bring it up again, it just makes you look odd

FYI (Since you seem to have blocked it out of memory): The conversation at that point was about developers making games with low/no budgets. How this directly related to Ouya's costs of producing a game system, and why you insist you were talking about this when you said Cave Story was a waste of time to be made when it was released free, I have no idea. The conversations are almost completely unrelated, and I can't figure out how you are linking them, and how you still think you are in the right either way.

Oh and uh I dont think Cave Story is just "my" favorite game. I'm pretty sure a large portion of the gaming community, especially people who play indies, has it as one their favorites, including the people who called you out on your BS here at OCR.

If you havn't played it, maybe you should? Then feel bad for what you said Mister.

Perhaps he would listen to you if you actually decided to remain on-topic rather than make personal comments. You're basically saying to him "What you're saying is valid, but since I don't like you, I'm going to insult you to make it look like I'm still having an argument to make." He was talking about Ouya from a business standpoint because this is a thread about Ouya.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Neblix

[Dhsu]

"Has games that you could play on your phone/tablet" is not the draw of the system. "Has a real controller" is a draw. There is /literally/ no reason to get one if games on it wont make reasonable use of the controls -- the only benefit you get from it.

"You don't have to squint to see what's going on" is a draw.

"It doesn't cost as much as a phone or tablet" is a draw.

[Nabeel Ansari]

You don't have to squint for a tablet. In fact, the games will probably look terrible on the big screen considering they're low resolution and they look like perfection on a tablet screen.

[Dhsu]

As Zircon mentioned, it's not a big deal to re-render your assets and tweak your UI positioning. It's like releasing FLACs along with your MP3s.

[Crowbar Man]

I don't know of a game that can be put to market in less than three man-months and no outside resources. Opportunity cost is a cost; if a developer isn't at least making that back, it's not fiscally responsible for them to create games.

I think you are still thinking too big.

You can make a game in your bedroom in your spare time.

Not sure why we are using a 3 month timespan but there are several compos where indies make games in a short amount of time and release them for free.

Its more than possible.

"Has games that you could play on your phone/tablet" is not the draw of the system. "Has a real controller" is a draw. There is /literally/ no reason to get one if games on it wont make reasonable use of the controls -- the only benefit you get from it.

There are lots of games that come out on Android (and iOS) that use an on screen controller and suck because of it. Remove the on-screen controller, use a real one, problem solved?

I fail to see how "it's an indie console" means "developers ignore money". Business is business.

I fail to see why a game company, large or especially small, would ignore money, of any ammount? You can make money on Ouya. Its basically free money if you already have your product on Android

Perhaps he would listen to you if you actually decided to remain on-topic rather than make personal comments. You're basically saying to him "What you're saying is valid, but since I don't like you, I'm going to insult you to make it look like I'm still having an argument to make." He was talking about Ouya from a business standpoint because this is a thread about Ouya.

Eh, I dont think hes made hardly any valid points honestly. Not really insulting him either

Also, he wasn't talking about Ouya, and if he was, I wasn't talking about Ouya when he entered the conversation I was having at the time (which was about devs making games with no money, again, nothing to do with Ouya) and started saying what he was saying, which is completely unrelated to Ouya too. Did you forget the conversation too?

You both need to reread then. Nobody else seems to agree

Edited August 30, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Brushfire]

I really don't get why people keep ignoring that this is an Indie game console and the fact Google Play exists. I keep making these same statements but doesn't seem to click with anybody :/

Many of us aren't casual gamers.

[Newt]

You can make money on Ouya.

I am yet to see a compelling argument that this is true.

[EC2151]

I am yet to see a compelling argument that this is true.

What are you talking about? The creators pocketed a cool 9mill!

[Crowbar Man]

I am yet to see a compelling argument that this is true.

Put game on Ouya. Have some sort of revenue for it for it (Charge for it, Free 2 Play, Ads, etc). You've made money.

Not sure what there is to "argue".

Just because a big name company may not be able to spend millions on an exclusive AAA title on the Ouya doesn't mean nobody can make money. It is not for that.

It is specifically targeted as a console for small devs to make games on, at extremely lower costs than it does the big consoles

Also as I've mentioned, so so so many times. Big or small, if you have a game on Android, then you already have a game for Ouya, and putting it there is essentially free money.

Also if you are building a game, on any platform, with Unity (one of the leading multiplatform game making tools):

They are also partnered with Ouya, so theres probably going to be an option for Ouya. Again, basically "Free Money" outside of the cost of the Unity license to do so.

If you can't understand that "compelling argument" then nothing I can do for you :/

Kind of tiring repeating myself over and over.

Many of us aren't casual gamers.

Well I'd be fooled by the general lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Not sure what "Casual Gamers" has to do with the conversation, unless this is one of your "jokes".

Edited August 31, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Well I'd be fooled by the general lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Not sure what "Casual Gamers" has to do with the conversation, unless this is one of your "jokes".

Many people here like games with budgets and that aren't either time wasters and/or derivative rip-offs of better games.

Many people at this point in the console generation already own probably 3 devices that can do exactly what the Ouya wants to do, with MUCH more established distribution models. One of which(Steam), offers exactly what the Ouya offers to indie devs(free licensing among other things) and is already a haven for this sort of thing.

Unless Ouya manages to cast a HUGE marketing net, I don't see how it'll break out more sales than just the 60k backers that originally supported it.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Crowbar, you're confusing "I have no reason not to" with "I have a reason to".

Just because there's no reason not to put your game on Ouya doesn't mean you will. People don't work that systematically.

All you've been saying in response to the concern of devs willing to put their games on Ouya is "Why wouldn't they?" You can't speculate the success of something based on the idea that there's no reason it wouldn't succeed, or that there's no reason anyone wouldn't support it.

On the flipside, there ARE plenty of reasons it wouldn't succeed. I'm not going to list them because that's what Newt has been saying for the past thread.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Neblix

[DaMonz]

Guys, I don't really understand how any of you can predict if this console will be popular or not. How can we know how many devs will support this project? How can we know how many people will be buying the console if it comes out? How can we know how well the free version/paid version system will pay out in the end (I'm talking about the concrete revenues for the OUYA team AND the devs)?

I'm pretty sure nobody in this thread who has affirmed anything about these questions (e.g.: "This console is only good for a small niche of people" or "This system just won't make any money") has backed his opinions with relevant facts and/or statistics. Is it really just for a niche of people, or is it just your feeling? A product like this is new. It's a variant of console gaming that may or may not work out in the end. That's all. If some of you think this product is doomed to failure, I think you're just plain pessimistic. There is absolutely NO reason to believe this project will fail. Yeah, I know that "9 million dollars are not enough to fund such a project", but how do you guys know if they only have that money? Who told you that? They said they wouldn't get other backing than kickstarter during their kickstarter. Maybe they had enough funds for the whole thing already and they just decided to hit kickstarter for marketing reasons. Maybe not. We can't know, so please stop thinking this project is bound to failure.

Edited August 31, 2012 by DaMonz

[Dhsu]

Many people at this point in the console generation already own probably 3 devices that can do exactly what the Ouya wants to do, with MUCH more established distribution models. One of which(Steam), offers exactly what the Ouya offers to indie devs(free licensing among other things) and is already a haven for this sort of thing.

Again, using Steam on your TV is impractical if you only have one PC and it's not in the same room, and it's more expensive to build another PC than to buy an Ouya.

Without licensing costs, games can be made available to Ouya faster and be updated more often than XBLA and PSN. In fact, licensing costs will likely make many of these games exclusive to Ouya.

Crowbar, you're confusing "I have no reason not to" with "I have a reason to".

Just because there's no reason not to put your game on Ouya doesn't mean you will. People don't work that systematically.

All you've been saying in response to the concern of devs willing to put their games on Ouya is "Why wouldn't they?" You can't speculate the success of something based on the idea that there's no reason it wouldn't succeed, or that there's no reason anyone wouldn't support it.

Free. Money.

[Nabeel Ansari]

There is absolutely NO reason to believe this project will succeed.

Fixed, and read my sig plz

Free. Money.

A few dollars will only compell a dev with nothing better to do with his time. There's no guarantee that this "free money" actually amounts to anything substantial.

[Crowbar Man]

Many people here like games with budgets and that aren't either time wasters and/or derivative rip-offs of better games.

Indie doesn't mean Casual. If you only like games with large budgets, then you aren't really into indie gaming. Also insinuating that Indie games are just ripoffs of better games is kinda offensive. A lot of them are more unique and fun than produced by the big guys. That is the whole point.

Many people at this point in the console generation already own probably 3 devices that can do exactly what the Ouya wants to do, with MUCH more established distribution models. One of which(Steam), offers exactly what the Ouya offers to indie devs(free licensing among other things) and is already a haven for this sort of thing.

As I mentioned, if a person dont want to support Indie gaming, that person already own all the consoles, and nothing comes to Ouya of that persons interest, then the console isn't for that particular person. Not a big deal, some people only even buy 1 console. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be options

Also, I don't believe Steam licensing is free. Greenlight may have changed that, but regular Steam licensing isn't free. And Steam isn't a console. See my other posts about the other distro models.

Unless Ouya manages to cast a HUGE marketing net, I don't see how it'll break out more sales than just the 60k backers that originally supported it.

Well they made a pretty big splash on Kickstarter and gaming news.

Neblix:

I'm simply providing counter arguments / information. I've never said Ouya would be gigantically successful or anything. But I can point out the obvious things people seem to be missing, over and over.

Again, as stated before (sigh), if you are an Android dev, you should already be looking to make sure your game is working on as many devices possible anyways

Saying devs will simply ignore "Free Money" is a very odd argument. It is possible I guess, but if people are arguing devs want money uh.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Dhsu]

A few dollars will only compell a dev with nothing better to do with his time. There's no guarantee that this "free money" actually amounts to anything substantial.

Is there actually something better a dev can do with his time between projects? It might be only a couple dollars here and there, and it's better than the nothing he's earning while he's developing his next project. I think that's worth a few hours that he probably would've just used to play LoL anyway. And it's not just about the money either; often the exposure and feedback is just as, if not more, valuable. I mean, heck, OCR is entirely being supported and sustained by people who don't get paid at ALL.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Dhsu