Doom II: Delta-Q-Delta - History

[John Revoredo]

Agh.. I made a longer introduction for the 31 Seconds mix, but THE LIGTHS WENT OUT WHEN I ALMOST FINISHED IT...........AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA......... shit.......... Okay.. I'm re-doing it right now

[Flik]

I'm tempted to take a stab at one of the remaining tracks. Maybe the final level if it's still open...

[The Orichalcon]

I'm tempted to take a stab at one of the remaining tracks. Maybe the final level if it's still open...

You're very welcome to have a crack at that track. I like your style of mixing and nobody's on that one at the moment.

[Flik]

Awesome. If it's the track I'm thinking of (the level where you blast rockets into the evil head) then I may have some neat ideas to try out when I'm back in town after this weekend.

[The Orichalcon]

Yep, that's Map30.

[John Revoredo]

Okay.. finally the 31 seconds mix with extended intro is done...

The Orichalcon : --> I'm not sure if the first two bell "dings" should go in the song... i think it could be better erasing them.. (anyways.. that's 2 seconds of erasing, i think)

Well.. I hope u like it man.. I'm really willing to see this project released ^^

[Flik]

Ok, while in the process of cleaning a mass quantification of junk out of my basement, drinking smirnoff grape, and sitting in chat, I just now came up with the perfect way to start my track. When I'm done destroying everything down here I'll head up to the "studio" and get something started.

[John Revoredo]

okay, I'm giving a try to do a Nine-Inch-Nails - ish mix of Opening to Hell with a singer whose voice resembles to Kurt Cobain's voice (sorry I couldn't find any Trent Reznor LOL) ... Do you guys think this one can get in the project?.. Anyways, if it doesn't , I'm planning to finish it anyways and send it to OCr... ^^

[big giant circles]

I've got about a minutes worth of junk that I've kicked around for an Icon of Sin remix. Seems like there's a few people looking to do that one. We could always attempt another 8 person collab in effort to rival OWA

[djredlight]

That reminds me.

A few of the tracks on the Doom 2 soundtrack are based heavily around certain rock songs, and it was decided not long ago that remixes of these tracks in particular won't be accepted onto OCR:

Map07 - Shawn's got the shotgun - Dead Simple

Slayer - South of Heaven

Map10 - The Demon's Dead - Refueling Base

Slayer - Mandatory Suicide

Black Sabbath - Time Machine (Wayne's World Version)

Map18 - Waiting for Romero to Play - The Courtyard

Pantera - This Love

Map23 - Bye Bye American Pie - Barrels O' Fun

Alice in Chains - Them Bones

Map25 - Adrian's Sleep - Bloodfalls

Alice in Chains - Angry Chair

So if you're planning on submitting to OCR and you've taken one of these tracks, you'll have to pass on it this time.

I was unaware of this until yesterday when i read that post (after completing two of the aforementioned tracks).

According to John Romero, (lead designer of doom 2) on his own website.

"..Bobby Prince was a lawyer before he was a musician. He knew the legal amount of sampling that he could do without getting into trouble."

As far as i know, Id software nor Bobby Prince ever encountered legal problems regarding the soundtrack.

From the ocr faq, regarding remix source qualifiers...

"..The music does have to be from a game, however - it can't be a bonus track off a commercial OST that wasn't actually in the game. In addition, popular movie themes (i.e. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc.) or commercial songs that happened to be used in game soundtracks are not valid ReMix material. The music has to have been composed for the game, not simply used within it."

If he was allowed to copy as much as he did for the tracks to be legally considered original compositions for the doom 2 soundtrack, and not simply just covers, shouldn't that make them eligible for OCR?

[John Revoredo]

I've got about a minutes worth of junk that I've kicked around for an Icon of Sin remix. Seems like there's a few people looking to do that one. We could always attempt another 8 person collab in effort to rival OWA

Whoa.. that could be great fun, man! ^^ I would be chillin' loving forward to that.. I'll send ya what I've done so you tell me what you think !

--edit:--

To DjRedlight: I've also found this

http://www.doomworld.com/linguica/doomcovers/Bobby%20Prince%20is%20a%20Filthy%20Thief.mp3

An mp3 that showcases the similarities between known songs and doom tunes.

Here is the individual comparison

http://www.doomworld.com/linguica/doomcovers/

[djredlight]

No arguments from me there, i know he's based the soundtrack heavily on those songs, some moreso than others. My point is that if he's rearranged the tracks enough for them to be considered legally an original composition, wouldnt that qualify as a song written for the game's soundtrack and hence a valid OC remix source?

[The Orichalcon]

Well, the exclusion tracks were sort of decided back when Dark Side of Phobos was still under works. David suggested that we let the cover tracks slide for that project (ie: remixes of covered rock songs were still allowed to be posted to OCR then) but enforce the rule once the project was finished. So that means that tracks on DQD are subject to the rule.

Now, I started a topic on the panel to get opinions on whether or not we could make another exception for DQD, specifically because of how good DJR's Map 18 remix is.

The general opinion was that Larry and David would take each track into consideration as they were presented, since some tracks are direct covers (map 18,) where other tracks just use parts of songs to create an entirely new song (map 07.)

I didn't exclude them from the project because, covers or not, they're what made Doom 2's soundtrack complete, and they're going to be remixed for the project. The only screw in the woodworks is that remixes of the covered songs won't be elligable for direct posting to OCR. They'll still be on the project website (likely to be doom2.ocremix.org) as well as in the torrent and mirrors. They'll get just as much exposure as the rest of the doom 2 project tracks that aren't posted to OCR (It's likely that a maximum of 4 or 5 will be posted to OCR, which is what happens with every project.)

So, I'm sorry if I didn't make the ruling specifically clear on those tracks. It's worth pointing out that it's not really a legal issue with the exclusion so much as a personal choice by Dave on the site's behalf. He's made the decision that the site caters more to remixes of truely unique songs written for games than songs that are inspired by rock tracks or other people's work.

Anyway, I'm all for getting as many DQD tracks posted to OCR as possible. So if anyone wants to submit a remix of one of those tracks, just run it by me first and I'll see what I can do about getting it posted.

Just so you know, DJR, I'm gonna chat to Larry about your Map07 remix tonight if possible and get it put in the direct post queue for the project's release along with Evilhorde's Map01 mix. Map07's source is original except for the drums which were covered from Slayer's "South of Heaven", so melodically the parts that you actually remixed are fine and should be allowed.

[Liontamer]

This is just my opinion, and not the panel's collective call.

TO brought up Map18 in May, and I'm 100% on not allowing it. I also don't care what Prince did in terms of legally insulating himself. Some of the remixes on OCR could probably be considered originals by that reasoning. IMO, the legal status of the Doom tracks has got nothing to do with how similar some Doom tracks sound next to their mainstream inspirations.

Just to clarify, I've only done comparisons with Map18 and Map07. Other Doom 2 sources in question, I will be glad to check the others in due time and report back here with how I felt about the comparisons.

In the meantime, I'm quoting myself from a judges discussion post a few minutes ago:

As far as Map18 goes, I'm dead set against it. It's not using all of Pantera, but like I said and like Jesse said, the parts that are used are near-verbatim. No dice from me.

Map07 is definitely a lot more debatable. Prince isn't using the Slayer melody at all; The similarity/derivation is obvious, but ultimately I personally don't think we'd count Map07 as an arrangement of Slayer. To me it clearly sounds inspired by Slayer, but so different as to be considered an original composition. I'd say Prince actually distanced himself enough from it. I can only speak for myself though.

IMO, Map07 seems fine to me. We gotta make sure some other Js feel the same. I personally would have 0 problem with Map07 as acceptable source material.

Like I just mentioned to TO, lemme just run Map07 by one or two more of our colleagues just to make sure there's no conflict, and I'll be glad to basically sign off on it. Don't pull your hair out, Ash.

[djredlight]

Thanks for getting back to me on this one Larry, and so you know, I'm not "pulling my hair out", I'm simply looking after my own work.

I can understand where you're coming from and thats fine. Its not my position to argue with your's, Dave's or the panel's opinion on what is considered a valid source. I'd just like to make it clear that whichever of my works OCRemix won't consider, I will withdraw and keep for myself.

Apologies to TO, I wish I was aware of all this earlier.

[Liontamer]

I'd just like to make it clear that whichever of my works OCRemix won't consider, I will withdraw and keep for myself.

Our eligibility standards have no bearing on the quality of a track, though it's unlikely you read into it that way.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but if I am, what's the long-term benefit of withdrawing a track from the project on account of it not being eligible for OCR? Seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. When the project hits, most fans who hear of DQD won't hear about it because of this site's main page, they'll hear about it through internet word of mouth.

A Map18 mix still honors Doom II in the scope of the album project, yet fans who will download the album would end up not hearing what you made as a result of a pull. It just sounds like they would all lose out, AND you would lose out on that opportunity to increase both your fanbase and fan nostalgia for Doom II.

[djredlight]

I see the whole thing as quite frankly, very petty and silly. Some tracks are acceptable and some are not, but you might allow them subject to a debate. DQD's tracks are subject to all this rubbish, but DSOP's weren't. But as I said, its your perogative to do what you will, and I'm in no position to argue with the system. But had I known about any of this, I wouldn't have remixed either of the tracks I did.

Increasing fan nostalgia? From what I gather, OCRemix's opinion is that the tracks in question are actually composed by commercial bands, and not for the Doom 2 soundtrack. However you'll let them slide in DQD for the sake of a complete project.

As far as cutting off my own nose, think about what you're asking me to do. You're asking me to post my music on the same site that is screaming out black and blue that it was originally a rip and not an acceptable source. So no, I cant say i share your view, It doesn't do me, or my music, any favours for it to be muddied by all of this.

As I said before, this has nothing to do with being posted on OCRemix. In between school and work and other things going on, those remixes took me months to do and I refuse to treat them flippantly.

[Liontamer]

We don't "let anything slide" for the sake of inclusion on a project. What's allowable for a project is more of a question of what game was involved, as well as the project director's discretion.

the same site that is screaming out black and blue that it was originally a rip and not an acceptable source

From what I gather, OCRemix's opinion...

This is just my opinion, and not the panel's collective call.

With that said, we did in fact debate DSoP informally among the panel and we'll be debating DQD. Everything that's been debated re: Doom II will be looked at, including how DSoP was decided on in the past, so there's a lot to consider. To clarify though, nothing has been decided yet with this game.

[djredlight]

TO informed me of this last night.

As far as Map18 goes, I'm dead set against it. It's not using all of Pantera, but like I said and like Jesse said, the parts that are used are near-verbatim. No dice from me.

The example you chose, map 18, barely qualifies as a remix. It's nearly verbatim, and there is nothing in the doom track that isnt in pantera. just because the guy didn't just stick the Pantera MP3 into doom doesn't mean he did anything particularly creative with it, which he didnt. genre adaptation, whatever. It's the same song, minus the later sections.

It appears that the panel has already taken a stance on this, that Map 18 was indeed composed by Pantera.

Of the five "black-listed" tracks in doom 2, FOUR have been remixed already and are currently hosted on OCR. Not to mention the numerous tracks with the same status from Doom 1 and DSoP. The whole thing has become quite ridiculous, and seems to only apply to my work. Hypocrisy aside, I was asked to join this project only to stumble upon this by accident after I had finished my remixes. Needless to say this project has become a sizeable waste of time for me.

I don't understand why you would call for remixes of these questionable soundtracks for an OCRemix site project on one hand, yet condemn those remixes by taking the stance that they were never written by the composer we're supposed to be honoring on the other.

I am withdrawing myself and my remixes; Map 7 ("Dance of the Mancubus") and Map 18 ("Still Waiting") from the project. I'd like to avoid any further debate over my music as I didn't join this project to remix Pantera or Slayer.

Again, my apologies to TO.

[The Orichalcon]

Tracks 07 and 18 are now available.

Edit: Also, added further information to the first post to make it absolutely clear what the status is on individual tracks in the project.

[tweex]

Just to let you know, I'm working on Map 5, and not Map 4 .

[analoq]

Needless to say this project has become a sizeable waste of time for me.

sounds like you joined this project for the wrong reasons. my contribution is ineligible for OCR as well, but i didn't join this project to get a remix on OCR, i joined it to contribute to the project. in this case: why should i or anyone care what the judges think?

i agree TO shouldn't of asked for remixes of those songs; if he's not gonna include the Wolfenstein songs but include the Pantera songs... it's not a complete project anyways. his stance doesn't make much sense, but it doesn't make much difference either.

clearly you'd prefer to throw a tantrum than contribute to this project, so i suppose a "fuck off and have a nice day" would be appropriate but i'll just leave it at:

cheers.

[The Orichalcon]

i agree TO shouldn't of asked for remixes of those songs; if he's not gonna include the Wolfenstein songs but include the Pantera songs... it's not a complete project anyways. his stance doesn't make much sense, but it doesn't make much difference either.

I had a good think about those wolfenstein tracks and decided that since they're the exact same versions as were in the game wolfenstein (where-as the Pantera/Slayer stuff is either covers or arrangements for Doom 2) then it wasn't really Doom 2 music. Besides, Map31 is itself a rearrangement of the song Black Sabbath which would've made it inelligible also.

But I'm not absolutely against a Map31 or 32 remix. If anyone made a good remix of them for the project I'd certainly consider adding them.

But as for why I added these 5 pieces for the project. They're part of Doom 2, whether they're based on rock songs or not. The MIDI's that are in the game are unique to that game, so there's really no point in leaving them out.

[anosou]

I might try one of the tracks. I'll keep in touch and hook TO up with a WIP when and if I start one.

[LiezaMcDohl]

Personally I have to agree with redlight. I mean honestly, if you are currently hosting the remixes of these songs, then I do not see the problem with hosting them now. If one actually looks into the facts, Bobby Prince was told to remix those songs by such bands for Doom because they were popular at the time. The songs themselves have a few moments within them that makes references to the songs done by Pantera and whatnot, however, not the entire song is that song. Music is a free subject, people use other bands rifts, beats, etc all the time for their own music. An example of something like this would be Kashmir by Led Zepplin being used by Puff Daddy in his song, Come With Me, featured on the 1998 Godzilla movie.

Now beyond my rant, personally I believe that music is music. The songs were used within a game, correct? Thus a remix of this track is technically by accounts considered to be remixing Game Music, which if I recall is what this site is all about. I am not trying to start anything huge or argumentive about this, however, I felt it was right to state my opinions on this matter. I am pretty indifferent on Doom 2, I never really played it that much compared to Doom 1, but I do have the soundtrack because I enjoy listening to it.

That would be my two cents. Ignore it if you wish, or whatever.