*NO* Final Fantasy 6 'Figaro Chiptune'

[djpretzel]

Personally, I'm skeptical of this brand of ReMixing overall, but it *is* Sam, so... -djp

HELLLO EVERYONE!

This is a chiptune remix of "Edgar and Mash". I didn't use "expanded-channel" options or anything like that. Just good old fashioned 3 melodic channels 1 for percussion. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH EXPANDED CHANNELS!!! I just simply prefer the challenge of only having 3 notes to use at any given time [also... if you want to use the "pseudo reverb" trick, you have to sacrifice one third of your entire arsenal OMG!]. Here is LInk to song:

[Liontamer]

http://snesmusic.org/spcsets/ff6.rsn - "Edgare and Mash" (ff6-107.spc)

Personally, I didn't hear anything here to feel "skeptical" about. Part of getting an NES chiptune passed on OCR is being very creative despite working with channel limitations, which I think Sam did in spades here.

There were several creative variations on the source melody, and plenty of good harmonization ideas. The percussion coming in at 1:15 was long overdue, as nothing was moving the track along, but waiting that long to bring things in provided some good contrast. All the while, there was plenty of phrasing ideas that sounded very obviously like Sam's prior work.

My main issue was on the production side, as the volume was too loud and there were really nasty piercing frequencies in the low midrange. On my laptop's speakers, it wasn't a big deal, but on headphones it got to be a problem. Compared to an actual NSF, this didn't sound as clean. I don't quite see the volume issue as forcing me to switch my vote, as it seems easily remedied, but I'd prefer to have the volume adjusted about -4 or -5db before posting so the track isn't abrasive. I really don't think it should be posted as is with this volume.

YES with volume adjustment

[JJT]

YES

I know Dave values sound quality in OCReMixes, but as far as the composition is concerned, this ReMix is in the very top tier of what the community has seen.

It will probably take twice as many listens as I've currently given Figaro Chiptune to pick up on everything Sam has crammed into it.

To highlight just a few of my favorite parts-

1:16 through 2:16 sounds like a collaboration between Keith Jarret and Bun Bun, and I feel like Thom Yorke could have written the transition at 3:06.

I wouldn't object to a quieter mixdown, as Larry pointed out this might need.

In conclusion, I have a schoolboy crush on this mix, with it's extremely mature harmonization, challenging mixed meter, and efficient use of 4 channels.

Dig.

[The Orichalcon]

Well, personally I think all chiptunes are bad, and I don't think this should qualify as a remix for the site. But we have to look at it from the site standards view, and I don't see anything that really stands out as bad or unworthy of the site.

The quality of the file is really bad, but that's to be expected because it's a chiptune, they all sound bad. The arrangement is really the focus here, and like JJT said, it's remarkably good for a chiptune. I don't know a lot about the limits of the genre beyond the sound limits, but this sounds pretty good to me. Surprisingly, it even sounds less dissonant than most of Shna's non-chiptune stuff.

I think OCR needs something like this every now and then to remind people that sound quality isn't everything, and what better way to present that point than with a standout chiptune arrangement?

YES

[GrayLightning]

Quick comments before I go on vacation...

Wow, just wow. I don't believe what I'm seeing here. I'll vote on this when I get back from vacation. If we're going to pass this, then we should pass that happy hardcore mix or Mazedude's we had major issues with recently, not to mention too many to list NOs we've been giving out. The production here is worse, it being a chiptune is not an excuse based on past precedent. I can not think of a mix we've passed in the last two years with lower production values than this one.

I don't see on what planet this would fit our production guidelines at all. I do like the compositional elements here, but at the same time it is being limited by the artist's purpose. This sounds too basic on some levels. Also there is an art to chiptunes beyond these basic applications. For me, this is a pedestrian chiptune mix, and one I don't see that should pass. Maybe if it were to the quality of Virt chiptunes. But this.... Again, I go back to the very substandard production (even within the context of a chiptune).

I want a full panel vote on this one.

NO, full vote later. I'm gonna be out of town and will be back after new year.

Additional Edit:

Ok I'm back from vacation. Larry, Jon, TO please reconsider yesing this. There are some huge issues here.

I think since we have so many new judges lately it is important to put a historical perspective here. What is the mission statement DJP has given the site? The two main elements he has asked us to vote on with equal emphasis are Arrangement and Production. We can and have slightly towards one way or another in many cases, but this is too lopsided (one area is critically lacking, while the other is not in my view passable). In DJP's words, this is an MP3 site. Vig gave a lot of examples on where we can, and justifiably can give exceptions, but this is not one of them. This is too unbalanced and completely devoid of the production elements we are looking for. This isn't about voting on what you might view as interesting for OCR, it's about adhering to what DJP has given us as a foundation of how we look into mixes. In particular Prot, Vigilante and Myself, for the last few years have been trying to hold onto a singular standard that would be fair for all, while keeping the standards high, but accessible enough. This is the course of action the old guard of judges have chosen and one that we collectively have tried to adhere to in the recent years/months since then. A vote of yes in this case would be a clear changing of these very values that we've tried to uphold - to dimish DJP's mission statement/instructions on what this site is about and the standards that we have tried to hold up. This is a clear case scenario that isn't subjective, quite frankly.

It is also important we look at 3 landmark decisions that have taken us into this path. First is an issue of when a mixer continues to get mixes up consistently, the bar for that mixer does go up slightly at least. Production elements need to at least go up, rather than do a 180 turn around and disregard the maturation of these elements. Case in point Coop, who has virtually left the remixing community because he can't evolve in this regard.

Case Study 1: http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28527

Darius 'Silverhawk Legacy'

For the record, I came VERY close to vetoing this. We've indicated before that whilst The Coop's arrangements are usually sound, audio quality/samples used are extremely borderline for OCR and that improvement is really needed. I am reticent to involve myself to the degree of overriding a panel decision and using the veto, but NEXT time if we have the same sorts of issues and the mix is passed regardless, that's what I'll do. Without going into further detail, there has to be a balance between arrangement quality and sound quality, and things have remained lopsided a little too long, while OCR standards have risen.

Coop has given up submitting because of our demands. Now we collectively want to go against this and suddenly accept something that is far inferior in this aspect? This would not be fair at all. You can make your own rules and say whatever rationale you want, but the bottom line is you would be disregarding one rule. Let's be fair in this regard.

We have been passing quite a lot of stuff from Shna lately, so it must be clearly mentioned this has nothing to do with slighting Shna. We all collectively like his mixes, but in the above example this issue of falling back greatly comes into play.

Case Study II: http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=61482

Super Mario Kart 'Pentagon Path' *RESUB*

Plagued by production issues. The production was in some ways better in the Kart mix than in this FF6 mix. I won't go on too much about this, as the comparison is evident for us who were on the panel at the time.

Case Study III: http://www.ocremix.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=65719

Fröhn 'Remastered Gabber Mix'

There are some mixes that simply aren't up to OCR standards. It is very important for us in the panel to give a nod to genre restrictions, and we do that to the best of our abilities, however, at the end of the day, the singular panel standards have to be the most important issue here. If I flip the example around instead of production issues to composition issues. There are many electronica genres out there with only a four on the floor line, melody and bass line - with no harmony. Should we let these into OCR because a genre dictates it? Should we let basic hip hop drum pattern with no bass and harmony under a rap vocal in, because the production was uber-tite? Should we let Yoga music with some harmonic pad along side bird chirp music in? There are many genres out there, and they are indeed viable forms of music, but there is a limit and a line has to be drawn somewhere for us to accept something. DJP and us in the panel have drawn these lines over the past few years. Chiptunes are no different. By its very nature, a chiptune (and especially in this particular case) has the most basic of production elements to almost preclude it from passing.

To quote DJP in the gabber mix.

From what I've heard of gabber and happy hardcore and similar genres, this is above average i.e. "good" for the genre. However, WHILE REMAINING OPEN-MINDED WHEN IT COMES TO ALL GENRES, what I think we have to take into account here is that certain musical genres are inherently less conducive to fulfilling OCR's requirements of production and arrangement.

All these add up. Really, the decision here is clear. To yes this would be completely hypocritical and unfair to all the production rejections we have made in the last few months - including mazedude's mix, blad's, etc. Who had superior production efforts to this one. Production simply isn't the quality of the presentation. Production has 3 basic elements to it. Sound/synth/sample quality, the application of how to mix and master, and fx processing. For example, in some of Prot's older mixes that Vig alluded to the sample quality wasn't always the hottest, but he knew how to design the synth, mix and master it, and process it.

Again, I go back to the nature of this mix. The production is too negligent to pass. And one really can't say because the genre makes it acceptable it is acceptable for the site. I gave 3 important case studies that refutes all these notions. Just because you like it or think the genre allows something this lacking, it doesn't mean it is passable. Please be fair in the application of these rules. We have rejected too many mixes on "subjective" opinions, but we finally get a clear cut example here of a mix that is lacking or nonexistent in one aspect, but then we go and turn around and say this is completely fine, on an element that is completely subpar.

Let's respect the panel foundations, the mixers, and this site's mission statement. Please reconsider your votes here.

If this passes, for the sake of fairness, I am requesting DJP step in to veto this vote, just as he did with the Happy hardcore mix. This would not have passed a year or two ago, and I am shocked that the panel is regressing and is on the brink of passing this - when we have rejected so many superior production efforts.

[Vig]

I am a fan of Sam's music. Very much so. He's one of if not the most sophisticated composer in the community. That is evident in this mix as it is evident in everything else he puts out. The most significant difference between this mix and his other material is that this sounds like poo.

More preciesely, it sounds like an NES. Nostalgic as we may be, lets be honest; the NES sounds like poo. I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why we remix in the first place. I appreciate the notion that using such a limiting format emphasizes the remixer's compositional prowess. Unfortunately that notion is not mutually exclusive with the notion that this sounds like poo.

I know for a fact that it is possible to achieve the former without relying on the latter. Sound quality has never been Sam's focus. Protricity pops to mind as another artist who makes amazing tracks with sub-amazing samples. However, in the material posted by both artists, the sound quality has never been so poor as to detract from the listening experience.

This, on the other hand, sounds like poo. The instruments all sound painfully Lo-Fi, which is exactly what they are. The instruments are limited by the format, and I can't listen to this without being painfully aware that I'm listening to an exercise in compositional cockwaving. I can appreciate the talent involved, but listening to this is not enjoyable.

The listening experience is unecessarily handicapped. There is nothing about this arrangement that requires it to sound like poo. The composition would be just as good if the instruments weren't irritating, and I may dare say that better-than-poo sound quality would not necessarily de-emphasise the composition (citing all of sam's other works).

The sound quality only hurts this song; there's no reason why it shouldnt sound more pleasant.

NO

We're looking for creativity and enjoyability. I don't think OCReMix is a chiptune website.

[Liontamer]

Submission Instructions & Standards]Under sound quality, the mixing (mastering, panning, effects), processing, and sample quality are taken into account. OCR hosts MP3 files for a reason, and if the sound quality of your submission could easily have been achieved using the General MIDI soundsets of most budget consumer soundcards, it will be rated down in this category. Even if you submit the most ingenious reworking of a game theme ever, with sequencing and programming and chord progression all highly refined, if it clearly sounds like a default FruityLoops demo or General MIDI playback, your submission will not be accepted. An OC ReMix strikes a balance between creatively reworking the original composition and paying attention to mixing and sound quality, and is thus judged accordingly in both of these two areas.

There aren't many 2A03/4-channel chiptunes working within the limits with as much compositional complexity as "Figaro Chiptune". Not so much in the beginning, this nonetheless has enough polyphony/activity going to be engaging in my opinion. Gray saying that the NSF synths are too "cheap and inferior" compared to soundfonts and General MIDI is merely an opinion that I don't agree with, the same way he doesn't agree with mine.

While soundfonts are better, I don't think NSF is inferior to General MIDI, which is why, despite NSF being a basic sound format, I don't think you can merely take the above Submission Standards quotation and shoehorn NSF into it. The sounds involved don't sound ugly to me, and the fact that they don't have any added effects/processing doesn't amount to a violation. Depending on how you interpret the above guidelines, feel free to NO it sure, but even there I don't feel the sound format, synths, or lack of post-production processing are a dealbreaker.

Like anything that has good composition and weaker production, it's a balance issue, which is partially how Gray sees it. Personally, I didn't have any significant production issues. The sounds are distinct and layer well.

To me, it's all about proficiency of usage. The main concern for me regarding a chiptune is whether it creates a full enough atmosphere. NSFs ultimately sound too sparse if not pushed to their limits. Due to the 4-channel limit, the constant polyphony involved here is a direct reflection of substantive compositional choices. The sound is full and developed enough despite itself and its limitations. Literally if one doesn't think NSFs sound "ugly and inferior" in this context, then they're simply not gonna look at it the same way as Gray does. I certainly don't.

I don't think this a particularly different situation from Final Fantasy 8 "Moontang", where arrangement was able to compensate for inferior samples. Basically what it boils down to on Gray's side is that NSF samples are inherently poor and displeasing in this context, which I don't agree with. Provided the complexity in arrangement and channel usage is there, and the sounds are distinct, there's nothing precluding a limited-format chiptune from passing. My vote is firmly with YES. For the record, I have no problem with a rejection for Gray's reasons or a veto from djp.

If this is rejected, I think the precedent it sets is that limited channel chiptunes like NSFs or SIDs aren't passable, which I don't agree with but don't have a huge issue with. More importantly, it doesn't preclude anyone from making an NSF that doesn't hold to the 2A03's 4/5 channel limit, i.e. FDS, FME-07, MMC5, M106, VRC6, or VRC7 expansion channels.

[JJT]

I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that the production is good. It's a chiptune, and by definition is NOT.

quoth david lloyd today:

a chiptune mix could concievably pass, if the arrangement were so freakin' amazing as to make you crap your pants...

In my humble opinion, this mix does that. Most of the panel probably doesn't agree with this, but I feel like if I changed my vote, it would be for the wrong reasons.

YES STANDS

veto away.

[The Orichalcon]

My yes also stands. I feel the arrangement here is enough for this to be acceptable in contrast to the production. I feel we're putting too much emphasis on production here and blowing it way out of proportion. Although I can see Gray's points clearly, I just don't think it would be that big of a deal if the strong grip on production values was loosened for a standout arrangement, even if it's only once.

Unlike the gabber mix, the production values were good for the genre of the mix, so it's a step above that decision.

Oh and JJT, perhaps a change of underwear is in order.

[GrayLightning]

Basically what it boils down to on Gray's side is that NSF samples are inherently poor and displeasing in this context, which I don't agree with. Provided the complexity in arrangement and channel usage is there, and the sounds are distinct, there's nothing precluding a limited-format chiptune from passing. My vote is firmly with YES. For the record, I have no problem with a rejection for Gray's reasons or a veto from djp.

If this is rejected, I think the precedent it sets is that limited channel chiptunes like NSFs or SIDs aren't passable, which I don't agree with but don't have a huge issue with. More importantly, it doesn't preclude anyone from making an NSF that doesn't hold to the 2A03's 4/5 channel limit, i.e. FDS, FME-07, MMC5, M106, VRC6, or VRC7 expansion channels.

We have already set such precedents. We don't accept certain genres, as I said in my vote. Why don't we allow great dance music with only melody, bass, and four on the floor if it's really danceable? Why don't we allow Yoga music, etc. One can go on and on, but again we have driven a line on a sand for the benefit of the site. To say otherwise, is simply not true. To say otherwise would just be voting on personal opinion contrary to the standards/policies DJP has set prior. Read case study 3 where he set the preceedent on HH/Gabber type mixes. I don't see you making a big outcry there. The same holds here. If we're going to allow this and make genre exemptions for one, we should do it for all. Not just this one.

Secondarily, saying NES sound quality for your view is fine and all. But that is your pesonal view that goes against a lot of factors and the standards of the site, the standards that djp has given - in addition the collective consumer, professional, technological opinion that spurred Nintendo to team up with Sony to produce the SNES soundchip, due to the inferior NES sound quality that hampered it in gaming circles, by contrast to the superior sound capabilities of Sega Master System or Turbo Grafx 16 (and this was in the 80s - so now 20 years later now this is in vogue because some people say so?). There is a reason this technology was so lackluster that Nintendo tried so hard with Sony's help to improve itself with their next console. So you can say you like it, and it's fine, I like it on some level too. But in terms of application of it to our standards, you are arguing against the consensus. Bottom line, an arguement is being made here where from a judge perspective something sounds good because you say so, even if You can disagree with me, or the facts presented, but saying so based on personal opinion does not make it so - especially if it's contrary to history of videogames/technology, facts, and standards.

[Liontamer]

To clarify, my vote on Fröhn 'Remastered Gabber Mix' cited both the arrangement and sounds as lacking. I felt the arrangement was too straightforward to pass regardless of sound choices.

I'm really not concerned what the industry currently or retrospectively thinks of the 2A03 chip. Some like it, some hold it in no regard. I'm just saying that IMO, the arrangement sounds pleasing and well-written in spite of the "primitive" sound choices and more importantly pushes the limitations of the sound format. I do not hold the 2A03 format itself or its limitations as inherently a violation of guidelines or below standards provided the arrangement is comprehensive and the soundscape/atmosphere is solidly constructed, which both need to be the case for my YES. Ultimately I feel that is the situation here.

[djpretzel]

I'm just saying that IMO, the arrangement sounds pleasing and well-written in spite of the "primitive" sound choices and more importantly pushes the limitations of the sound format. I do not hold the 2A03 format itself or its limitations as inherently a violation of guidelines or below standards provided the arrangement is comprehensive and the soundscape/atmosphere is solidly constructed, which both need to be the case for my YES. Ultimately I feel that is the situation here.

Alright, here's the deal: arrangement and production both boil down to a number of decisions, good or bad, an individual ReMixer has to make when putting together a mix. When you choose genres like gabber, happy hardcore, and in this case chiptune, you place a limit on the number of decisions you can make. Period. No one's saying you can't like the sound of NSFs, but part of ReMixing as we've defined it is instrumentation, panning, mixing, DSP, etc., and regardless of whether it sounds pleasing or not, the control and decisions a mixer makes when working with chiptunes are greatly reduced. There's simply far less room for making the types of creative decisions that we take into account when evaluating mixes. That's what this particular judges' decision boils down to: respecting the work that ReMixers put into their submissions when it comes to instrumentation, DSP, and mixing, and realizing that any piece that chose a genre which intentionally limited the ability to make such decisions would have to compensate. HARDCORE.

Please take that into account - this isn't about whether Sam's mix has high enough production values to pass, it's about whether almost any chiptune mix could really meet our requirements. And yes, I stand by my comment that if the arrangement was simply fucking brilliant, even a chiptune could pass, but with all due respect to Sam, I think even HE would agree that this isn't his magnum opus in that arena.

[zircon]

I've discussed this at length in the IRC channel and it looks like all the views have been laid out. After a lot of consideration, I agree with Gray on this. Our standards that we've laid out and forged over the last few years should hold that this mix doesn't pass. This is a brilliant arrangement. If this was done in any other style except "chiptune" I think it would easily pass.

NO

[DarkeSword]

I've thought long and hard about this mix and I'm going to vote NO, as well as ask djpretzel for a policy clarification as to chiptunes of this nature.

First, let me say that the arrangement in this mix is very good. Lots of great interpretation harmonically and rhythmically. The whole thing is a really enjoyable listen.

The problem here is that with OCRs, we're striving for sound quality in terms of texture and design. Don't get me wrong; I love NES chiptunes, and listen to them on a regular basis, and I can certainly appreciate the texture of squares, triangles, and noise working in tandem.

However, I think that OCR strives to elevate what we listen to beyond the simple textures of yesterdecade. An arrangement like this is, from a certain POV, limited by the bounds of the NES sound, and I believe that it could be better with some creative effects and signal processing.

The arrangement, as I said, is great, but sometimes it seems like Sam is trying to compensate for the lack of more complex sound design by tricking out the arrangement as much as possible. Overcompensation? Perhaps. Does it matter? Probably not; I just judge the end product, but I think it bears mentioning that this could be on the very opposite extreme of a MIDI-rip; instead of trying to compensate for lack of arrangement with killer sound design, the simple sound design is compensated with killer arrangement.

Ultimately though, I think that a pure NES chiptune, while fantastic and enjoyable in its own right, doesn't really match up to what we're looking for at OCR.