which matters more when trying to get work as a composer?

[GSO]

the degree or the portfolio? cuz I'm taking music theory lessons. I just wonder if a 4-year degree in music composition is necessary. or if really good ideas and luck will be enough.

[timaeus222]

A degree is helpful, but not entirely necessary all the time. If you want a degree, it's still a good idea.

[DrumJ8]

the degree or the portfolio? cuz I'm taking music theory lessons. I just wonder if a 4-year degree in music composition is necessary. or if really good ideas and luck will be enough.

I really think the portfolio matters so much more. The degree looks good on paper but is not really helpful if the portfolio is not good. It's definitely not necessary. However, if you truly think that by getting the degree and focusing your efforts in actually learning and retaining the information, that in turn could HELP your portfolio.

When you're networking, I just think saying "I have a music degree" is not as potent as being able to say "listen to my awesome music."

[AngelCityOutlaw]

The portfolio by far. No one cares how you learned to do it as long as you do it well.

[Rozovian]

No degree, who cares? Bad portfolio, no jobs.

[timaeus222]

The portfolio by far. No one cares how you learned to do it as long as you do it well.

I need to make this clear. There are some clients who won't hear much of a difference between your level of production and another person's level of production, and the main thing they'd look for is what styles you're capable of. If that's the case, the degree might actually be the deciding factor. If they CAN tell though, then it's safe to bet that polishing your portfolio is the better way to go.

For example, let's say we were to compare bLiNd and Sole Signal. They both have a really good handle on bass presence, but to the general client, would they be able to choose if neither bLiNd nor Sole Signal had a degree? Maybe not. Would they be able to choose based on musical style rather than production quality? Yeah, probably.

In the end, field experience is key. People normally care if you can definitely do something, not that you can theoretically do it.

Edited July 25, 2013 by timaeus222

[Meteo Xavier]

I'll be the dissenter and say the degree probably matters more, because right now the game composing "industry" is filled to the brim with spirited amateurs who didn't do much else than buy Fl Studio and EWQLSO and study MIDIs and forums to get their business started.

Anyone can make a portfolio, just put together 20 ultra-generic, Final Fantasy type tracks on a soundcloud and call yourself Uematsu. A guy who posts saying he wants to hire a game composer will get 150 portfolios to sift through in a day's worth of time, and any serious game maker knows what kinds of applicants he's getting. Most of these people are kids under 25 with real jobs and real lives, this game thing is basically just a hobby to them, and the guy knows it.

But a degree shows that you put some serious time and effort into doing it for real. You can't just get a degree, you have to earn one, and it shows you want to do music full time. Full time musicians have actual time to do music the way they want it, and since they make the prices*, they want someone who will do more for the same price. On paper, and logically, getting a degree is better, since you will likely already have a portfolio to start with.

The honest answer is that neither is actually that useful. What actually determines if you get any kind of job doing music is luck and the complete willingness to be a puppet for your employer. The supply of music people today is 100x the demand, and most of those jobs get taken and kept. Game employers know this, and they use this to justify getting more servitude from their composers for less, if any, money. "You want your creative freedom? You don't want to start tracks over from scratch 5 times because it didn't fit my vision? Well, fuck you, I can find someone who will in 10 minutes." You're going to be better off getting your degree in IT or something.

Sorry to be a downer on the subject again, but someone has to remind people the reality of being an up-and-comer in a highly sensationalized and extremely tight market. The best tools available are the same tools everyone else get nowadays and the same generic philosophical advice that sounds sagely, but is just fluff from lucky, successful musicians who couldn't give two shits if you actually succeed or not (and you can bet they wouldn't give up their seat for you).

* - And yes, ask any actual working composer here and they will tell you YOU set the prices, but that's just not how it works in the real world. Unless you're a celebrity, you don't call those shots. Don't believe me? Go ahead and tell an employer you want $500 a minute and see how well that works for you.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I need to make this clear. There are some clients who won't hear much of a difference between your level of production and another person's level of production, and the main thing they'd look for is what styles you're capable of. If that's the case, the degree might actually be the deciding factor. If they CAN tell though, then it's safe to bet that polishing your portfolio is the better way to go.

For example, let's say we were to compare bLiNd and Sole Signal. They both have a really good handle on bass presence, but to the general client, would they be able to choose if neither bLiNd nor Sole Signal had a degree? Maybe not. Would they be able to choose based on musical style rather than production quality? Yeah, probably.

In the end, field experience is key. People normally care if you can definitely do something, not that you can theoretically do it.

I think you're confusing composition and production in that part about bLiNd and Sole Signal. When you go to school for composition at most places, that's what they teach you to do; compose. At the Universities in my province, the last year of a 4 year degree teaches you just absolute basics about using a DAW for the purpose of composition. Although they can be done by the same person, being hired to compose is not necessarily the same as being hired to mix and master music.

It's like how I hired you to mix and master my composition for that game. I'm more than willing to share a percentage of any money I make (which has never been huge money) to make sure my music sounds far better than I could mix and master it.

If you're a composer, your focus should be composing great music. That's not about EQs, compressors and faders; it's about your knowledge of actually composing and most of that comes from a strong knowledge and application of music theory. That being said, if one way or another you can't provide good production, you probably aren't gonna get hired.

I'll be the dissenter and say the degree probably matters more, because right now the game composing "industry" is filled to the brim with spirited amateurs who didn't do much else than buy Fl Studio and EWQLSO and study MIDIs and forums to get their business started.

Anyone can make a portfolio, just put together 20 ultra-generic, Final Fantasy type tracks on a soundcloud and call yourself Uematsu. A guy who posts saying he wants to hire a game composer will get 150 portfolios to sift through in a day's worth of time, and any serious game maker knows what kinds of applicants he's getting. Most of these people are kids under 25 with real jobs and real lives, this game thing is basically just a hobby to them, and the guy knows it.

But a degree shows that you put some serious time and effort into doing it for real. You can't just get a degree, you have to earn one, and it shows you want to do music full time. Full time musicians have actual time to do music the way they want it, and since they make the prices*, they want someone who will do more for the same price. On paper, and logically, getting a degree is better, since you will likely already have a portfolio to start with.

The honest answer is that neither is actually that useful. What actually determines if you get any kind of job doing music is luck and the complete willingness to be a puppet for your employer. The supply of music people today is 100x the demand, and most of those jobs get taken and kept. Game employers know this, and they use this to justify getting more servitude from their composers for less, if any, money. "You want your creative freedom? You don't want to start tracks over from scratch 5 times because it didn't fit my vision? Well, fuck you, I can find someone who will in 10 minutes." You're going to be better off getting your degree in IT or something.

Sorry to be a downer on the subject again, but someone has to remind people the reality of being an up-and-comer in a highly sensationalized and extremely tight market. The best tools available are the same tools everyone else get nowadays and the same generic philosophical advice that sounds sagely, but is just fluff from lucky, successful musicians who couldn't give two shits if you actually succeed or not (and you can bet they wouldn't give up their seat for you).

* - And yes, ask any actual working composer here and they will tell you YOU set the prices, but that's just not how it works in the real world. Unless you're a celebrity, you don't call those shots. Don't believe me? Go ahead and tell an employer you want $500 a minute and see how well that works for you.

Some composers who work freelance for major film and game companies can often demand and receive a percentage of the project`s budget. Sometimes as high as 10%. 5-10% of a project that has a budget of millions of dollars is VERY good money. Music is a huge part of films and games so paying the composer 5-10 percent of your company's budget is hardly an unreasonable expense. However, the number of people constantly scoring such well funded projects are few. So no, you DO set the prices, but you have to be working for someone who can actually pay those prices and that is all about connections.

Speaking of which, most "composers" don't want to get out there and actually meet people face to face. They just post on indie forums that no one looks at and then cry about how unfair the music industry is when they either A. Can't find work or B. Complain that all they get is indie-projects that pay little to no money.

I have never been paid a shitload of money or enough to live on with music, but I'm no longer convinced that it is impossible. The odds are stacked against you for sure, but if work to constantly improve your craft, get out there and go to places where the people who work in the business are and make good connections and friends, or even do other kinds of jobs working for those companies, it is absolutely possible.

A music degree will make people more interested in checking you out, but it means nothing if you don't get out there and network. The reason you should go to school and get a degree in the arts is not to get a job; it's to learn from others how to improve your craft. It's not the only way, but it's definitely easier and faster than teaching yourself.

Edited July 25, 2013 by AngelCityOutlaw

[ShrackAttack]

I'll be the dissenter and say the degree probably matters more, because right now the game composing "industry" is filled to the brim with spirited amateurs who didn't do much else than buy Fl Studio and EWQLSO and study MIDIs and forums to get their business started.

Anyone can make a portfolio, just put together 20 ultra-generic, Final Fantasy type tracks on a soundcloud and call yourself Uematsu. A guy who posts saying he wants to hire a game composer will get 150 portfolios to sift through in a day's worth of time, and any serious game maker knows what kinds of applicants he's getting. Most of these people are kids under 25 with real jobs and real lives, this game thing is basically just a hobby to them, and the guy knows it.

But a degree shows that you put some serious time and effort into doing it for real. You can't just get a degree, you have to earn one, and it shows you want to do music full time. Full time musicians have actual time to do music the way they want it, and since they make the prices*, they want someone who will do more for the same price. On paper, and logically, getting a degree is better, since you will likely already have a portfolio to start with.

The honest answer is that neither is actually that useful. What actually determines if you get any kind of job doing music is luck and the complete willingness to be a puppet for your employer. The supply of music people today is 100x the demand, and most of those jobs get taken and kept. Game employers know this, and they use this to justify getting more servitude from their composers for less, if any, money. "You want your creative freedom? You don't want to start tracks over from scratch 5 times because it didn't fit my vision? Well, fuck you, I can find someone who will in 10 minutes." You're going to be better off getting your degree in IT or something.

Sorry to be a downer on the subject again, but someone has to remind people the reality of being an up-and-comer in a highly sensationalized and extremely tight market. The best tools available are the same tools everyone else get nowadays and the same generic philosophical advice that sounds sagely, but is just fluff from lucky, successful musicians who couldn't give two shits if you actually succeed or not (and you can bet they wouldn't give up their seat for you).

* - And yes, ask any actual working composer here and they will tell you YOU set the prices, but that's just not how it works in the real world. Unless you're a celebrity, you don't call those shots. Don't believe me? Go ahead and tell an employer you want $500 a minute and see how well that works for you.

Either I've been incredibly lucky in the past 2 years just starting out or you just deal with incredibly shitty people and have done zero networking or something. I don't even know what to tell you. I've always negotiated my own prices for every commercial thing I ever have done. I've only had to do an annoying amount of re-writes one single time and I've done 5+ upfront payment projects in the past year(not that this is a lot, but its enough for me to live on) and multiple royalty/profit share games with high potential. Especially now with the huge amount of indie games, you should be able to get on a pretty decent looking indie and get a good 5-15% cut while you work a day job if you're just starting out.

You can't just do one style of music and nothing else and call it a day (in most cases) if you want to be able to eat and pay bills. Personally I do multiple styles of music (at least decently), SFX design, audio implementation in FMOD, Wwise, etc. If I don't know how to do a style of music (which is often the case) then I spend a day and learn it and bullshit it the best way I can until I can genuinely do that style. I have spent time even learning other areas of game design so I know how everything works together. I know the ins and outs of Unity, Cryengine 3, Unreal, etc and it is these little things that can make you look way better than someone else. These little things do not take that long to learn to a very basic level.

As far as your question goes: I have a Music Technology BA degree but I would say your portfolio (you need an actual reel you can send someone on the fly), ability to communicate well, and a good attitude are easily the most important things to getting a gig or an inhouse job. And honestly, networking and being amicable to people you meet and GENUINELY becoming friends with them will be a catalyst for you getting a job in the future. People want to work with people who are friendly and someone they could potentially have a beer with.

And I'm not completely disagreeing with you Meteo. Any creative field is potentially going to be very competitive. That's just how it is. Fun jobs aren't easy to get.

[dannthr]

the degree or the portfolio? cuz I'm taking music theory lessons. I just wonder if a 4-year degree in music composition is necessary. or if really good ideas and luck will be enough.

A degree is not a factor in acquiring work.

An education is an opportunity for you to improve your skill--take it or don't, it's not the only opportunity, but there isn't really any like it.

A degree will never be a factor in you getting music work in any the entertainment industries.

Only 3 things will get you work:

1) Your ability to deliver assets professionally (quality and on-time).

2) Your apparent talent (you don't have to have actual talent, people just have to think you do).

3) Your network (you have to know the people who have work before you can get it).

In most professional spheres, your credit list will satisfy the first two--MOST of the time, people will be more interested in your credits than your portfolio as it will stand-in for your portfolio and say a lot more about your professionalism.

Your portfolio can help with #2, but that's about it.

A degree doesn't help any of those things.

An education can be harnessed by a student to increase all three:

A project based curriculum will help you improve your ability to deliver assets at high quality and in a timely manner (#1).

A theory and production heavy curriculum can help you hone your skills so that your work feels original and impressive (#2).

Most programs that focus in production and more contemporary entertainment fields are populated by students who are on similar paths and teachers and students both who have connections if not work in the various entertainment industries--for most, school is the beginning of your professional network (#3).

Don't go to school because you think it will get you work, go to school because it's an opportunity to learn.

[SnappleMan]

Should be noted that the process of getting a degree can significantly widen your network. The most reliable clients I have are the ones who I went to school with, and the biggest gigs I've gotten have been thanks to the connections I made (and I simply took a few music courses as electives while working on a getting my CSC degree). Granted I only do professional work as an engineer/mixer, so my composer friends have no problems helping me find work.

Some people I know who are earning a professional living with music don't have music degrees, some never went to college and a couple never finished high school, so nothing is a prerequisite.

So yeah if you're a composer, make friends with engineers and mixers, no competition there. And get into writing library/production music! Do whatever you can to get yourself out there. If you got time to post on this message board then you're not doing enough to launch your music career!

The only person I known who managed to create a (seemingly) sustained career as a composer has been Jake Kaufman. And as long as I've known him he's never had time to relax. It's a 24/7 commitment, and wondering if a degree is good or not just opens your mind up to excuses for failure. You need tunnel vision and a resilient butthole, cuz you're gonna get fucked hard.

[timaeus222]

I think you're confusing composition and production in that part about bLiNd and Sole Signal. When you go to school for composition at most places, that's what they teach you to do; compose. At the Universities in my province, the last year of a 4 year degree teaches you just absolute basics about using a DAW for the purpose of composition. Although they can be done by the same person, being hired to compose is not necessarily the same as being hired to mix and master music.

I actually meant exactly what I said, but I'm gonna clarify some more then. I was saying that based on bLiNd and Sole Signal's skills with bass presence as an example, they match each other's level of skill very well. In a case like that, if the client truly can't tell who's better at mixing bass in particular, a degree would make a difference. If the client were to look at their musical styles, not skills, and decide which one fits their purposes and intents better, since bLiNd does mostly dance music, and Sole Signal loves to do cinematic and orchestral mainly, their compositional styles are pretty distinct, which makes the decision a bit easier even if a degree wasn't considered.

Edited July 25, 2013 by timaeus222

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I actually meant exactly what I said, but I'm gonna clarify some more then. I was saying that based on bLiNd and Sole Signal's skills with bass presence as an example, they match each other's level of skill very well. In a case like that, if the client truly can't tell who's better at mixing bass in particular, a degree would make a difference. If the client were to look at their musical styles, not skills, and decide which one fits their purposes and intents better, since bLiNd does mostly dance music, and Sole Signal loves to do cinematic and orchestral mainly, their compositional styles are pretty distinct, which makes the decision a bit easier even if a degree wasn't considered.

Oh okay, I thought it was an odd example at first since it you were talking about production and the thread is asking about composition. I see your point.