Overwatch

[Kat]

2 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

It's not omnipotent

Try to flank it. It turns almost instantly and begins firing into your face. Try to dash past it via Genji or Tracer - Note how during the .2s travel time it locks on and fires several bullets(which all hit you - it has 100% accuracy even on fast moving targets).

3 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

It doesn't take a fair amount of teamwork, it takes the most basic amount.  In some cases, it doesn't take any amount and just a half decent hanzo (I should know, as I'm a half-decent hanzo myself).

2 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

and it can actually be taken down in a matter of seconds by a half-decent sniper.

 

I'd like to point out your turret-destroying strategies are best-case scenarios. Remember that we also have an entire enemy team to deal with on top of this. On several maps, there is nowhere for the attacking team to snipe it without being within its 40m range. Hanzo and Widowmaker need to line up a shot/charge/etc, which is plenty of time for it to lock on and attack them. The obvious solution is to either shield them with Reinhard or have another team member take the aggro. Using your best-case-scenario logic, we have to assume the enemy team will also have a Reinhardt or other players actively guarding said turrets, or otherwise denying you easy shots at it. This means you're using at least two players to deal with an automatic mechanic created by one player. If they have multiple Torbs and a half decent team, forget about it.

I'd also like to note that as someone who plays Genji religiously, I can tell you he can't simply "E" the turret. That works against a Lv.1 turret(though his basic attack is far more effective at that point, considering its slow attack rate and the likelihood of Torb being around to repair it), but the Lv.2 turret has too much health to burst down with Deflect, especially if Torb is attending to it.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

Git gud has never been truer than in this argument.

"Git gud" is never effective in an argument. In most cases it's the equivalent of saying "I can't git gud without that mechanic so you should git gud instead!". By the way, his rivet gun is very effective both in close range and long range. Firing rate is 2RPS and it does 70 damage. His molten core makes his turrets even more powerful while also making him a bigger threat. He is fully capable of defending himself without his turret in it's current state.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

3 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

It's not omnipotent, and it can actually be taken down in a matter of seconds by a half-decent sniper.  Being able to rebuild it matters not.  Level 1 turret does minimal damage and goes down almost instantly.  Oneshot if you attack it shortly after being deployed.  In tf2, you need an uber to destroy a well positioned engi nest, and it requires equal amount of teamwork to defend it.  Nobody thinks engi is op in tf2, because its not, its easily countered, just as Torb is.  Or, get a tracer and ulti the turret.  Or, get a genji to E it.  Or many other ways.  

Like I said, you guys can whine all you want, but I'm pretty damn sure Torb isn't getting any nerfs anytime soon, and the patches in the upcoming months will show that.  At most, he will probably receive a rework so he's actually usable in high competitive, but I don't expect that to come anytime soon.  Git gud has never been truer than in this argument.

My bad, it is omniscient.

Also, this

2 hours ago, Kat said:

I'd like to point out your turret-destroying strategies are best-case scenarios. Remember that...

[Neifion]

Balanced or not, I just don't think fighting against AI turrets is fun. Basically, I'm like: "Damn it, gotta take out this turret." Then once we do, I'm like, "Okay, now I can have fun again."

A good enemy Tracer is a nuisance. Basically a fast-moving turret. But I still have fun playing against her because she's a fast, dynamic, unpredictable bee.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

They announced today that they're going to be balancing the PC and Console versions differently. I shouldn't be surprised by that at all, but I never really thought about it until I read that. That may very well mean I won't bother picking the game up on PS4 when and if the price drops to play with my friends who don't have a PC.

Also, the internet is just killing it with these

 

[Kat]

Personal favorite:

 

Though the Gray Fox as Genji one is a close second.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

3 hours ago, Kat said:

Personal favorite:

 

Though the Gray Fox as Genji one is a close second.

Ffs see what I mean about the turret being overpowered? It just knew where all those guys were and they were behind a wall.

[Sir_NutS]

11 hours ago, Kat said:

Try to flank it. It turns almost instantly and begins firing into your face. Try to dash past it via Genji or Tracer - Note how during the .2s travel time it locks on and fires several bullets(which all hit you - it has 100% accuracy even on fast moving targets).

It works exactly this way in tf2 and in 2300+ hours of gameplay I never heard whining about it.  It won't kill you instantly either.
 

11 hours ago, Kat said:

I'd like to point out your turret-destroying strategies are best-case scenarios. Remember that we also have an entire enemy team to deal with on top of this. On several maps, there is nowhere for the attacking team to snipe it without being within its 40m range. Hanzo and Widowmaker need to line up a shot/charge/etc, which is plenty of time for it to lock on and attack them. The obvious solution is to either shield them with Reinhard or have another team member take the aggro. Using your best-case-scenario logic, we have to assume the enemy team will also have a Reinhardt or other players actively guarding said turrets, or otherwise denying you easy shots at it. This means you're using at least two players to deal with an automatic mechanic created by one player. If they have multiple Torbs and a half decent team, forget about it.

how do you, as hanzo or wm, have to deal with an entire enemy team? unless you're going to the frontline there's always vantage points you can take to snipe them.  Yes you will get attacked but again, they won't kill you instantly.  If you know how to peek and shoot they WILL go down without issue.  Again, git gud.  If they're using reinhart or other players to protect it, then they are using TEAMWORK to win, not a single player strategy.  And so should you.  

11 hours ago, Kat said:

I'd also like to note that as someone who plays Genji religiously, I can tell you he can't simply "E" the turret. That works against a Lv.1 turret(though his basic attack is far more effective at that point, considering its slow attack rate and the likelihood of Torb being around to repair it), but the Lv.2 turret has too much health to burst down with Deflect, especially if Torb is attending to it.

Yes, that's why you need to be smart about it, aka git gud.  If you go while nobody's attacking of course you're not going to kill it.  If you go in while there's ANY kind of distraction then you will.  Or when you have your Q ready.  If your team is going in one by one and dying, you're not losing because Torb is op.
 

11 hours ago, Kat said:

"Git gud" is never effective in an argument. In most cases it's the equivalent of saying "I can't git gud without that mechanic so you should git gud instead!". By the way, his rivet gun is very effective both in close range and long range. Firing rate is 2RPS and it does 70 damage. His molten core makes his turrets even more powerful while also making him a bigger threat. He is fully capable of defending himself without his turret in it's current state.

Oh but it IS an effective argument.  Because Torb turrets pose no problems for me, nor it does for any pro player as Torb sits at less than 5% usage(not that I'm comparing myself with a pro, as I'm only average).  If you know how to approach them, then they don't pose more of a problem than any other good character.  If I die to them, I never blame Torb being OP but me being dumb about approaching them.  

Again, you can whine all you want but we'll see the patch notes.  I highly doubt any nerfs will be coming for Torb and since that will be the case I advise you to git gud because you're going to have to deal with them, that's reality.

 

EDIT: This reminds me of this great article I read recently about the NA CSGO scene, NA CSGO had been the butt of many jokes for quite some time, as they have never won a major.  NA CSGO teams and players kept making excuses as to why that was the case and why EU had the superior teams.  Then comes along the Brazlilian csgo players and teams and in a span of about 2 years grow to become a contender and Win a major and place above NA teams.  I liked a quote at the end of said article: "  A winner will find a way to succeed, while a loser will find an excuse not to. "  Which is a motto I hear often in the fighting game community too, and it's one I've found to be true in every competitive game I've played.

https://gamurs.com/articles/the-thorin-treatment-brazil-exposes-north-americas-excuses

[Sir_NutS]

^This however is something I've noticed as well but I thought it was just Hanzo's arrow hitbox being huge.  May be a contributing factor to those weird deaths that seem impossible and most of us attributed to the slow af tickrate.

[Bleck]

9 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

It works exactly this way in tf2

no it doesn't, not even close

[Sir_NutS]

24 minutes ago, Bleck said:

no it doesn't, not even close

 

20 hours ago, Kat said:

Try to flank it. It turns almost instantly and begins firing into your face. Try to dash past it via Genji or Tracer - Note how during the .2s travel time it locks on and fires several bullets(which all hit you - it has 100% accuracy even on fast moving targets).

 

Yes, yes it does.

[Kat]

TF2 turrets are notably different. Scrap("Metal") works differently in that game - Not only are their costs higher, but their primary large source of metal is a respawning drop that both allied and enemy engineers can grab(in addition to the usual drops/debris). That is not present in Overwatch. In addition to knockback(which Overwatch's turret does not have),  TF2's sentry gun also has ammo, which costs metal to replenish. They also have a notable lock on time and warning before they start shooting, and they do not fire while being built/upgraded..Also of note is that TF2 has the Spy, whom can disable turrets with little difficulty if the enemy team isn't paying attention(but we know they are). TF2 turrets don't fire on cloaked or disguised spies. The spy can sap it to prevent it from firing and can easily dispose of it in those situations.

Finally, one huge difference: TF2's turret only has an instant detection range of around 90 degrees. It can and will rotate 360 degrees to lock on, but it's not instant and gives plenty of time to quickly move by small exposed areas(in particular, doors or other openings). You really can't compare the two.

 

 

[Sir_NutS]

6 minutes ago, Kat said:

TF2 turrets are notably different. Scrap("Metal") works differently in that game - Not only are their costs higher, but their primary large source of metal is a respawning drop that both allied and enemy engineers can grab(in addition to the usual drops/debris). That is not present in Overwatch. In addition to knockback(which Overwatch's turret does not have),  TF2's sentry gun also has ammo, which costs metal to replenish. They also have a notable lock on time and warning before they start shooting, and they do not fire while being built/upgraded..Also of note is that TF2 has the Spy, whom can disable turrets with little difficulty if the enemy team isn't paying attention(but we know they are). TF2 turrets don't fire on cloaked or disguised spies. The spy can sap it to prevent it from firing and can easily dispose of it in those situations.

Finally, one huge difference: TF2's turret only has an instant detection range of around 90 degrees. It can and will rotate 360 degrees to lock on, but it's not instant and gives plenty of time to quickly move by small exposed areas(in particular, doors or other openings). You really can't compare the two.

 

I know they aren't exactly the same.

That's why I pasted the comment I was reffering to, which mentions aspects in which they ARE the same.

 

Try to flank it. It turns almost instantly and begins firing into your face. Try to dash past it via Genji or Tracer - Note how during the .2s travel time it locks on and fires several bullets(which all hit you - it has 100% accuracy even on fast moving targets).

 

1-TF2 turrets turn almost instantly.
2-Then being firing into your face.
3-they lock onto you and track you all the time.
4-Bullets have 100% accuracy (missiles do not, however.  Those can be dodged)

[AngelCityOutlaw]

11 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

how do you, as hanzo or wm, have to deal with an entire enemy team?

The argument that has already been made several times is that many maps allow for placement of turrets in such a position that a sniper cannot reliably hit it without being hit as well. If you don't believe me here, go to Hanamura and set up a turret on the ledge just by the small opening on the right side of the wall (defenders perspective) and try to take it out as widow or hanzo (without his ult.) Also, any competent defending team is going to have their Genji, Widowmaker, Tracer etc. seeking out the snipers. Also, remember that the enemy team will be shooting at you too.

11 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

Yes, that's why you need to be smart about it, aka git gud.  If you go while nobody's attacking of course you're not going to kill it.  If you go in while there's ANY kind of distraction then you will.  Or when you have your Q ready.  If your team is going in one by one and dying, you're not losing because Torb is op.

This is not an accurate representation of Kat's argument. Nowhere in that argument is there a suggestion that because this strategy isn't effective by yourself, Torb is broken. Kat is saying that you cannot simply defeat the turret by pressing "E" as Genji as you did suggest.

11 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

Oh but it IS an effective argument.  Because Torb turrets pose no problems for me, nor it does for any pro player as Torb sits at less than 5% usage(not that I'm comparing myself with a pro, as I'm only average).

No, this is a terrible argument because skill can overcome just about anything in video games. Also, just because "pros" don't play as X that much doesn't mean anything outside of that character simply isn't popular. I would say that Torbjorn is probably one of the least common characters I've seen thus far. The game hasn't even been out officially for a month yet, you can't assume that the popular characters in the pro or casual circuits will be the same even six months from now. Magneto, Storm and Sentinel weren't always a popular combination.

They're going to nerf McCree's stun-fan-roll-fan combo because it can melt most characters in just a few seconds. I don't have a problem with it, though and perhaps most "pro" players don't either so instead of nerfing it, why doesn't everyone else just "git gud"? 

Infinite combos in MvC are a thing, but if you're good enough, you can avoid getting caught in them entirely so obviously they're not a problem. 

TL;DR - Torb's turrets don't ruin the game for me, but I don't see how people can be in favor of nerfing McCree for doing a bit too much damage and having ridiculous range with a six-shooter, but shut down criticism of a single player's omniscient structure, which can spin on a dime, has extremely favorable positioning on certain maps, can be repaired in real-time and rebuilt instantly but it's not an issue because I don't have an issue with it, TF2 did it too, "git gud" and pros don't really play as him. 

[Sir_NutS]

25 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

The argument that has already been made several times is that many maps allow for placement of turrets in such a position that a sniper cannot reliably hit it without being hit as well. If you don't believe me here, go to Hanamura and set up a turret on the ledge just by the small opening on the right side of the wall (defenders perspective) and try to take it out as widow or hanzo (without his ult.) Also, any competent defending team is going to have their Genji, Widowmaker, Tracer etc. seeking out the snipers.

I don't know what this position is.  I've yet to find a position where a turret is completely invulnerable to proper attack but if you can be more precise about it that'll help.

You can't assume the team will have competent genjis or whatever seeking out your snipers, because I can do the same and say that my team will have competent players countering those too.  Which is one of the reasons why balancing around stupidity or lack of skill is... stupid.  And no good competitive game does it.
 

31 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

This is not an accurate representation of Kat's argument. Nowhere in that argument is there a suggestion that because this strategy isn't effective by yourself, Torb is broken. Kat is saying that you cannot simply defeat the turret by pressing "E" as Genji as you did suggest.

Fair enough, though I never said it destroys a turret, I said its one of the things you can do to counter torb, among other things.
 

33 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

No, this is a terrible argument because skill can overcome just about anything in video games. Also, just because "pros" don't play as X that much doesn't mean anything outside of that character simply isn't popular. I would say that Torbjorn is probably one of the least common characters I've seen thus far. The game hasn't even been out officially for a month yet, you can't assume that the popular characters in the pro or casual circuits will be the same even six months from now. Magneto, Storm and Sentinel weren't always a popular combination.

If you think players at the top of a competitive game don't play a character out of popularity then... I don't know what to even say.  Players at the top of any competitive game will do ANYTHING to min/max their performance.  Switch to a powerful character, play a certain meta, etc.  Also the competitive scene for overwatch has been there for over 6 months now, I think probably over 9 months.  With professional teams, sponsors, and money tournaments.  Pro players didn't start playing on launch, they started on the beta.  I can't say the meta is completely stable after just 1 year of competition, but I can say its fairly stable and it would take a huge shift in power to bring torb from 3% usage to the top.  

 

37 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

They're going to nerf McCree's stun-fan-roll-fan combo because it can melt most characters in just a few seconds. I don't have a problem with it, though and perhaps most "pro" players don't either so instead of nerfing it, why doesn't everyone else just "git gud"? 

McCree has been an issue for half a year now, it is not a new thing, teams have been running double McCree on most maps for a long time now and YES they do have a small issue with him.  McCree has been proven more useful than expected on ALL levels of play.  It makes sense to nerf him, even though I wouldn't care either way.  nerfing Torb because it's not even op in casual play? wut? nonsense.
 

40 minutes ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

TL;DR - Torb's turrets don't ruin the game for me, but I don't see how people can be in favor of nerfing McCree for doing a bit too much damage and having ridiculous range with a six-shooter, but shut down criticism of a single player's omniscient structure, which can spin on a dime, has extremely favorable positioning on certain maps, can be repaired in real-time and rebuilt instantly but it's not an issue because I don't have an issue with it, TF2 did it too, "git gud" and pros don't really play as him. 

Yes.

Like I said, it comes down to balancing a competitive game.  Balancing around low levels of play is stupid.  Absolutely nobody does it.  If it worked, blizzard would be doing it on sc2,  Riot would be doing it on LoL, Capcom would be doing it on SFV and Valve would be doing it on CSGO.  But they don't.  Because its stupid and it doesn't work.  They balance around the meta, which is set by the highest levels of play, which makes sense, because on low levels of play the meta is diluted and there are 1,000 ways to play the game which is impossible to balance around.  Now, Torb is OBVIOUSLY counterable, because he's almost got his own tier due to how low he is.  McCree on the other hand, shows strong at all levels of play, and creates a problem where other DPS classes just don't see much play.

Torb is fine.
Git gud.
Nobody balances a game around casuals.

Now it may be that Blizzard does find Torb powerful, which would puzzle me to no end, but if that's the case, then I'll concede the point and say that you guys are right.  Until then, I'll go with logic and common sense in the meantime.

[DusK]

I'm not seeing this argument about Torb turrets being OP.

A Genji reflect plus a couple of left clicks takes it out.

Cornershots with Widowmaker make short work of turrets as well, all while taking no damage yourself. I don't play Hanzo a whole lot, but I'd imagine it'd be the same with him. Range really isn't an issue there; I've done it point-blank with Widowmaker.

Pharah wrecks turrets from anywhere, with minimal damage. Cornershooting or just popping over walls for a bit.

Winston can drop a shield right next to the turret, waltz up to the border of the shield, and make short work of the turret.

Rein can charge the turret, stun it, and destroy it in a single swing, or a couple if Torb's right there.

Reaper can counter too, just spectre up and shoot it a few times, though it's usually kinda painful.

Hell, cornershooting with McCree or using heal crossfade + amp it up with Lucio and cornershooting can take care of a turret as well.

I'm sure there are more, but those are the easy solo counters. Team communication can make things easier. Rein's shield or DVa's defense matrix + just about any class can take care of a turret with zero damage to the team.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Oh, also

Kat was talking about hit boxes with Hanzo or something earlier. The issue is not that his arrow has a big hit box, it's that your character does. You can even try this in practice mode. Aim above the shoulders or just above the head and it counts as a headshot.

 

[Bleck]

18 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

It works exactly this way in tf2

 

8 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

I know they aren't exactly the same.

[RiverSound]

18 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

It works exactly this way in tf2

On 6/7/2016 at 2:51 AM, Kat said:

Try to flank it. It turns almost instantly and begins firing into your face. Try to dash past it via Genji or Tracer - Note how during the .2s travel time it locks on and fires several bullets(which all hit you - it has 100% accuracy even on fast moving targets).

 

9 hours ago, Sir_NutS said:

I know they aren't exactly the same.

Get it? 

Personally, I've not had much problems with enemy torbs, but I sure like to wreck disorganized attack teams with him. But every once in a while the enemy team actually knows how to completely counter the turrets (I don't think it's as hard as some people here feel) and when that happens, good ol' torbs isn't good for shit. 

 

[Sir_NutS]

1 hour ago, RiverSound said:

Get it?

Thank you.

On another note, it seems like they're doing tests to implement higher tickrate soon.  Also the mention of custom servers in the future sounds just awesome.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20744975070?page=2#post-36

Also confirmed McCree fan the hammer dmg nerf, and likely D.Va buffs (scary!)

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-07-overwatch-blizzard-answers-the-big-questions

3 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

Oh, also

Kat was talking about hit boxes with Hanzo or something earlier. The issue is not that his arrow has a big hit box, it's that your character does. You can even try this in practice mode. Aim above the shoulders or just above the head and it counts as a headshot.

That was me, check this video:

 

[Bleck]

1 hour ago, RiverSound said:

Get it?

no, because his point is that they're the same as tf2 turrets, and therefore aren't annoying or not fun to deal with

but everyone else is saying they aren't the same as tf2 turrets, and when pressed he said they aren't the same as tf2 turrets

which would make his point invalid

get it

[OceansAndrew]

Which champions are good for attack when you have no teamwork? It seems that in the few games i've played, its super easy to defend, but it's really hard to attack. Teamwork is probably the answer, but I never expect that, since people love to run in one by one and die. What champ can i pick to go in with one other lemming to fight it out and have the best chance of making progress?

[DarkeSword]

Supports, honestly. Lucio and Mercy will make you a teammate magnet. Zarya's ability to share a force-field also works. Spam a lot of "group up."

[Sir_NutS]

27 minutes ago, OA said:

Which champions are good for attack when you have no teamwork? It seems that in the few games i've played, its super easy to defend, but it's really hard to attack. Teamwork is probably the answer, but I never expect that, since people love to run in one by one and die. What champ can i pick to go in with one other lemming to fight it out and have the best chance of making progress?

 

2 minutes ago, DarkeSword said:

Supports, honestly. Lucio and Mercy will make you a teammate magnet. Zarya's ability to share a force-field also works. Spam a lot of "group up."

This.  Mercy is one of the most powerful champions atm, so it's a great pick for beginners.  I think I have one of the highest win ratio with her.  Lucio is a good pick too but his Q is more clutch IMO, so requires a bit more teamwork and knowledge of when its right to use it.  Zarya is good but she's also requires a fair amount of skill to play her well. 

[DarkeSword]

It also fun when you're playing as Mercy and you pair up with someone who knows what they're doing. Hit that damage boost and rake in the kills.