Hale-Bopp Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 So, I'm in the market for a new pro/semi-pro soundcard and with all the research I've done, I can't seem to decide what I'm better off with, a firewire unit or a breakout unit that connects to a PCI card. Anyone know if there's a major or minor difference in reliability? latency issues? CPU overload? anything to take into consideration one way or another? I know PCI is going out sometime in the future (not sure how soon) and PCIe is coming, but how soon and does it really matter? Like, will we see PCIe pro soundcards within the next year? I'm guessing not, but I don't know. Well, anyways. I'm looking at either the Echo Layla 3G or the Echo Audiofire 8. I welcome any other suggestions as well from experienced pro card users. Any thoughts? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klm09 Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Sorry, I don't really have any answers to contribute.. but I'd like to ask something myself as well. I recall reading about there being some issues with PCI cards used in PCIe motherboards, does anyone know anything about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
po! Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 my Echo MIA is very reliable and I have a latency of 2ms personally, i wouldn't worry about PCI being phased out. I doubt companies would release PCIe cards until it's widespread enough.. which might take awhile oh.. i just found this... http://www.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=3005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hale-Bopp Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 my Echo MIA is very reliable and I have a latency of 2ms Good deal! I'm hearing mostly good things about Echo products lately. oh.. i just found this...http://www.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=3005 Wow, great find there. That's definitely some interesting insight. I wonder what other audio card companies think of PCIe now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darangen Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I know Ailsean uses/used the Echo Mia as well, and always highly recommended it. I'm pretty sure Virt uses the Layla as well, not positive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I think it was Chad Seiter that used a Mia and I haven't seen him for months now that I think about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoozer Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 If you're worried about PCI going out of style; USB or Firewire. I know Ailsean uses/used the Echo Mia as well, and always highly recommended it. I'm pretty sure Virt uses the Layla as well, not positive though. Those things are 5 years old . Nice if you can find 'm secondhand, but that's pretty much an eternity in computerland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hale-Bopp Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 I'm actually more concerned about firewire's reliability and performance, though I know that varies from brand to brand. I'm also hoping more people who went the route of firewire audio will respond with their thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Apparently the firewire Audiophile blows, and the latency is ridiculous I know a guy that has [had?] one, and he said this. Maybe he set it up wrong but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analoq Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 well here's one man's story: like you, i had heard good thing about Echo's audio interfaces. the Delta44 i had was OK but i needed more. so i went out to my local music store and bought Echo's top-of-the-line rack unit, which like all their other products was PCI. i gleefully returned home with my new toy and proceeded to install the PCI card in my computer. hmm.. now my computer won't turn on! i take out the PCI card. now my computer works. i put the PCI card back in. hmm... no dice. turns out the PCI card is not compatible with my motherboard. i sadly returned the Echo to my local music store and came home with a MOTU 828, which was Firewire. a firewire audio interface? this was unheard of at the time. i had my doubts, but i figure it could do no worse. i was pleasantly surprised. it worked fantastic. and continued working great for over 5 years. it worked great on my PC, great on my laptop, and great on my Mac. how's that for reliability? i'm not suggesting you'll run into the same motherboard problems i had, it's just part of the story of how i've come to like firewire. as for latency, 2ms is a piece of cake. i less than that on my Mac. but sure, firewire isn't all rainbows and sunshine. maybe someone else has a story about how an Onyx 400 tried to kill their family and a brave EMU 0404 came to their rescue. exciting! cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 You guys and your <2ms latency... crazy! I'm happy if I run at 10ms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hale-Bopp Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well, it seems like somewhat of a crapshoot then as far as compatibility goes. That is unless I do a lot of research and find out if what I'm about to purchase is compatible with all of my computer's components. Even then you never know until you try something out, right? With that in mind, does anyone know if zzounds or other online retailers offer returns with no hassles if their customers discover that the equipment they bought and tried out simply isn't compatible with their setup? I'm leaning towards going with the Audiofire 8, but I'm not 100% on it yet. Argh, decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darangen Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I'm pretty sure they have a 30 day return policy. One of the best around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hale-Bopp Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Sure enough! "30-Day 100% Satisfaction Guarantee Applies On This Item " Can't go wrong there, especially with free shipping. Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souliarc Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Just wanted to add that my experience with the Echo MiaMIDI has been grand. And is 2ms latency really necessary? I guess if you can get away with having it down that much, you might as well, but the human ear can only detect around 11ms of delay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 And is 2ms latency really necessary? I think it's far more important for audio recording, especially if you have multiple things recording at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Yeah, it's more for recording than anything else. But even so, I can reasonably play and record my guitar at 10ms and it sounds OK to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klm09 Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I got my new comp now, and I can currently get what basically equates to 0 ms latency. Running at 96kHz sample rate, with a 64 sample buffer, the latency is under 1 ms. For example Reason just rounds it off to 0. However, to get more overhead, I keep it at 48kHz and 128 samples, which is a bit less than 2 ms. Here's the specs in case anyone cares: M-Audio Audiophile 2496 Asus P5NSLI motherboard Core 2 Duo E6400 2 GB 533MHz DDR 2 (Corsair, I believe) Seagate 320 GB SATA 3Gb/s 7200 RPM with 16MB cache MSI GeForce 7600 GT (fanless / heatsink) Nexus Breeze, 500 watt PSU LG DVD-RW So, basically, the Audiophile 2496 works brilliantly for me despite the PCI-E based nForce 5 chipset motherboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion303 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 the human ear can only detect around 11ms of delay. Where did you get this information? I'm far from having a perfect ear, but the delay when I'm playing my guitar at 10ms is too distracting for me to stay in time. -steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souliarc Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 the human ear can only detect around 11ms of delay. Where did you get this information? I'm far from having a perfect ear, but the delay when I'm playing my guitar at 10ms is too distracting for me to stay in time. -steve I've just been told and read about it different times. Still, if you take into account the Haas Zone, lag isn't perceptible until around 50 ms. Sound is either reinforced or phased out below that level. I can't remember which delay times pertain to each aspect. However, being that there's pretty much only one sound source (your speakers, headphones, whatever) if you're playing electric, and not 2 seperate waves (inital and delay), maybe it's more perceptible. Maybe your computer is introducting latency not represented by your DAW? Or maybe i'm just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 We need to call discussions like this "buffer limbo." How low can YOU go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analoq Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 the haas effect only applies to reverb/indirect sound. not really a good example. the 11ms is fairly accurate though. here's an experiment you guys can do at home: 1. take a sharply percussive sound and make a click-track with it. 2. grab a delay effect that lets you fine-tune the delay in ms. (like mda dubdelay) 3. put the delay on the track, 0 ms, no feedback, mix it in at 50% 4. play the clicktrack sequence and gradually move the delay up to 10, 15, 20 ms.. etc. you'll notice it just sounds phased from 0-15ms, yet from 20 and above you will hear a noticeable flam. or something like that. also be aware that the latency figures that your audio driver tells you apply to.. your audio driver. it does not account for whatever audio software you are running on top of it. if you think you're actually getting 2ms latency -- think again. your recording software is probably adding 10ms to that. your actual latency depends on several factors. cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion303 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Maybe your computer is introducting latency not represented by your DAW? Or maybe i'm just wrong. Actually, that's right. Analoq went into some detail on this, but it makes sense that your audio card isn't reporting the latency between its in port and your speakers, but the latency between its in port and the PCI bus (or wherever it connects). So real latency for me might be soundcard + DAW + effects + signal path to speakers + distance I'm standing from the computer while I play, which explains why the sound from my finger hitting a string ~2 feet from my ear would hit my ear so much sooner than the sound from the speakers does, at least at latencies higher than 10ms or so. There's also the (probably negligible) latency of the signal going from my pickups through the 20' cord before it even hits the soundcard to consider, too. -steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souliarc Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Maybe your computer is introducting latency not represented by your DAW? Or maybe i'm just wrong. Actually, that's right. VIKTOLY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klm09 Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Sound travels in air at about a foot per millisecond, so if you're about a yard from your speakers, that's another 3 ms "latency" right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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