Starcraft 2

[BardicKnowledge]

I need to eat more Korean food or something to increase my battle clairvoyance. I lost every one of my matches this weekend.

Were you cheesed in any of them, or all legit losses?

[HalcyonSpirit]

Were you cheesed in any of them, or all legit losses?

Getting cheesed is still losing legitimately, you know... there's no "broken" cheeses that I'm aware of. Please don't start thinking like IdrA.

[Bleck]

cheese is the reason why playing this online is a waste of time

[Arcana]

Getting cheesed is still losing legitimately, you know... there's no "broken" cheeses that I'm aware of. Please don't start thinking like IdrA.

This.

Almost every "cheese" tactic is defendable. From 6-pools to Terran command-centre liftoff-behind-rocks strategies, they're all defendable.

One time I lost against a Terran player who lifted their base off behind rocks at the start and then built banshees. When I scouted at about 12 supply I couldn't find his base and was all confused. The game still lasted about 15 minutes.

Another time I was Terran, built too slow, and lost to a 3 zealot rush. But that is totally my fault.

Um there was another game where I eventually lost to a Terran player. He tried to cheese me by building a barracks right outside my base, but I scouted him early and killed him. Actually I might have won that one, I can't remember now.

Some people tell me that in bronze league, basically all you see is cheese because most players don't know how to properly defend against attacks. Also, most bronze league players are very passive and depending on how passive they are, it might make early harass difficult. I played a ZvZ last night. The enemy zerg player turtled big time, building like 3 spine crawlers and 3 spore crawlers all inside one base and I was unable to scout him out well. He went straight to mutas against my roach/zergling army and destroyed all of my workers (I was down to two, and had converted about 4 of them to spore cralwers). I eventually won because he never expanded out of his main but he had tons and tons of static defenses and rarely tried to attack, which made the game drag on a bit.

Day[9] generally advises in bronze and silver leagues to focus up on macro, because in these leagues players are passive and don't like to attack, so the game ends up favouring whoever has the largest army.

[Souliarc]

I've been getting raped by cheese. From baneling drops on my workers to massing infestors and spewing out TONS of infested terrans. It was all my fault too.

You know what though, from what I have learned, it seems the MAIN reason for my loss is not scouting well enough and seeing these things ahead of time. Scouting is so important, and I still suck at it (mainly it's taking up a too much of my time and forget about macro).

Almost every time I check out a replay, I have enough units to wipe them out but I hesitate for fear of the unknown. If I would have scouted, I would've known that they were taking twice as much time getting up their tier levels to make infestors (thus, sacrificing their army count), while I already had 10 charged zealots. Or if I would've seen those banelings, I could've gone with a sentry/stalker combo.

Ever since a few run overs by ling rushes, I learned how to gap my base off with one zealot in the hold position that way they can't get the surround (of course, watched that one over pro replays ).

There's always a way. Just expand your tool set, and you'll be ready for anything.

[Conan The Politician]

I've been getting raped by cheese. From baneling drops on my workers to massing infestors and spewing out TONS of infested terrans. It was all my fault too.

I love folks that are wary of baneling drops. They move their workers off the mineral line even when I'm just scouting with an overlord. I don't blame them for being cautious, but unless they haven't scouted, most zerg players don't learn to hide tech buildings very well, namely a baneling nest.

[Souliarc]

I love folks that are wary of baneling drops. They move their workers off the mineral line even when I'm just scouting with an overlord. I don't blame them for being cautious, but unless they haven't scouted, most zerg players don't learn to hide tech buildings very well, namely a baneling nest.

It is quite a horrific sight...

Exactly though, thorough scouting would turn the tide.

[Necrotic]

Cheese strats are actually my favourite to play against just BECAUSE they're so easy to win against. They're all essentially all-in strats that basically only work because someone didn't scout properly but the person doing it gets so far behind economically immediately after it's fended off.

I wouldn't say a mineral line rush is cheese as they're easy to defend against and wrecking economic advantages are an integral part of the game in general.

[Arcana]

Fight cheese with cheese!

That's the way.

[Conan The Politician]

Cheese strats are actually my favourite to play against just BECAUSE they're so easy to win against. They're all essentially all-in strats that basically only work because someone didn't scout properly but the person doing it gets so far behind economically immediately after it's fended off.

I wouldn't say a mineral line rush is cheese as they're easy to defend against.

There are ways to 'cheese' in a conservative fashion that work well for some races, at least for how most plat/diamond players operate. Look up a Terran's 1:1:1 build. It allows for versatility in unit composition AND nasty drops/harass. Considering how a game goes, it's very easy to transition to an end game strategy with.

As a zerg player, I HATE dealing with this build. As it may be easy for a zerg to build lots of units fast, they don't get new units/utility as quickly as protoss or terran.

[Necrotic]

There are ways to 'cheese' in a conservative fashion that work well for some races, at least for how most plat/diamond players operate. Look up a Terran's 1:1:1 build. It allows for versatility in unit composition AND nasty drops/harass. Considering how a game goes, it's very easy to transition to an end game strategy with.

As a zerg player, I HATE dealing with this build. As it may be easy for a zerg to build lots of units fast, they don't get new units/utility as quickly as protoss or terran.

Hard to define whether that's cheese or simply intelligent or competant playing at that point.

[Conan The Politician]

Hard to define whether that's cheese or simply intelligent or competant playing at that point.

IdrA calls it 'imba bull****'. But then again, he's quite the rager, and doesn't lose with grace. I guess that's why people love him so much. He's the Hollywood Hogan of SCII.

[Arcana]

Hard to define whether that's cheese or simply intelligent or competant playing at that point.

Yeah, 1/1/1 is pretty common. I enjoyed watching MaDFroG vs. TheLittleOne to see how the Zerg player fended off the 1/1/1 and the inevitable Hellion harass. Watching that invitational series has taught me as a Zerg player to build spine crawlers by your mineral line vs. Terran.

[HalcyonSpirit]

Fight cheese with cheese!

That's the way.

Mmm... cheesy...

I saw that too. Twice, actually; it's on HD's channel as well.

I like watching high-level SC2 battle commentaries. I'll probably never be as good as them, so at least getting to watch the good players is fun.

[miyako]

banelings drops on your mineral line and mass infestor isnt cheese

cheese is being used way too liberally here

cheese is the reason why playing this online is a waste of time

ya too many sticky bombs in sc2 for you

[BardicKnowledge]

banelings drops on your mineral line and mass infestor isnt cheese

cheese is being used way too liberally here

ya too many sticky bombs in sc2 for you

Agreed, anything that requires more than 5 minutes of time to research / produce is not a cheese strategy.

Similarly, imo rushing any tier 3 at the complete expense of early defense is a terrible idea and the opponent should wreck you at the 2:00 mark with their first harassment attempt. (Exception: in 3v3 or 4v4, having one person rush void rays or banshees isn't terrible if you know that the rest of the team can cover for him).

[Souliarc]

banelings drops on your mineral line and mass infestor isnt cheese

From Liquidpedia Wiki:

"The usage of the term "cheese" has expanded to include most "all-in" strategies which involve a great sacrifice of economy".

As the player who dropped banelings on me very early in game, had nothing for economy (after I watched the replay), I'd consider it cheese. Getting the Lair, ventral sacs, double extractors early... it hurt their economy. If I only would have scouted, they'd be done for. Hence, cheese. Same with the infestors.

[BardicKnowledge]

I agree with "all-in" early strategies being cheesy -- but mass infestors is hardly an "early" move unless the very first offensive units he built were 2-3 infestors. Similarly, mass dark templars is not an early move, it's a midgame play. Taking advantage of your lack of detectors, whether that is with infestors, banshees, or dark templars is not cheesy, it's just good use of tier 2 units.

[smileOK!]

From Liquidpedia Wiki:

"The usage of the term "cheese" has expanded to include most "all-in" strategies which involve a great sacrifice of economy".

As the player who dropped banelings on me very early in game, had nothing for economy (after I watched the replay), I'd consider it cheese. Getting the Lair, ventral sacs, double extractors early... it hurt their economy. If I only would have scouted, they'd be done for. Hence, cheese. Same with the infestors.

lair is way too late to be considered cheese

[miyako]

From Liquidpedia Wiki:

"The usage of the term "cheese" has expanded to include most "all-in" strategies which involve a great sacrifice of economy".

As the player who dropped banelings on me very early in game, had nothing for economy (after I watched the replay), I'd consider it cheese. Getting the Lair, ventral sacs, double extractors early... it hurt their economy. If I only would have scouted, they'd be done for. Hence, cheese. Same with the infestors.

baneling dropping your workers isn't an all-in strategy. it is just a bad strategy.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese

examples of all-in strategies given. notice how they all require tier 1 and not lair and ventral sacs (not early game at all)

mass infestors which require lair and infestation pit and infestors which cost 150 gas a pop isnt early game either. again bad strategy

[Scrobble]

very few people use it now, but i'm hoping that will change if i post here: #ocrsc on etg! if people actually come and use the channel, it might be a cool thing to have.

[Souliarc]

I dunno. I can see where you all are coming from, but like the Liquipedia Wiki states, that term "cheese" has been EXPANDED to any strategy that sacrifices economy, and some even use it in mid-game.

I think initially the term "cheese" was set for very early game (like the examples given) but now it recognizes later investments.

And yeah, the players first combat units were infestors.

[moooonpie]

people latch onto the concept of cheese because their egos depend on it. to be blunt (i don't understand why everybody is sidestepping the issue), losing to mass infestors is simply getting badly humiliated, nothing more, and to call it anything else requires an incredible amount of self-delusion. stop externalizing your losses, stop calling things cheese, and you'll find yourself improving faster.

[miyako]

i mean the wiki also states that "If a build order classified as Cheese fails, the player using it will usually be far behind in the game," but the player is already behind doing this funky baneling drop and mass infestor strategy anyway. you yourself said the game would have ended if you just scouted it and attacked. even if you scout 2gate proxy, 6pool, 6rax reaper, you don't have the same luxury of being able to compose your army and attack his base since you have to defend against it first

i would be skeptical of that page anyway. cheese coming from korean origins? lol

[Conan The Politician]

people latch onto the concept of cheese because their egos depend on it. to be blunt (i don't understand why everybody is sidestepping the issue), losing to mass infestors is simply getting badly humiliated, nothing more, and to call it anything else requires an incredible amount of self-delusion. stop externalizing your losses, stop calling things cheese, and you'll find yourself improving faster.

As flamatory as this statement may be, it's definitely all about your attitude towards styles of play considered 'cheesy'. If you're going to keep playing as if people shouldn't/wouldn't play against 'cheese', you're not only going to lose more, but you're probably going to become frustrated.