Your opinons on these Sequencers.

[Nicholestien]

When I mean Sequencer, I really mean just the sequencer. I've been considering getting a program that allows recordings, such as sonar, cubase, logic, and pro tools. BUT, there is something I TREASURE, AND LOVE, ALOT, AND IT'S THE MIDI SEQUENCER, THE PIANO ROLL, I MUST HAVE A GOOD PIANO ROLL OR I WILL DIE.

Rate each of the programs below, give your opinons on them, which you prefer and why, don't just post your preferred sequencer because it's useless,

Pro Tools < is it really as good as people are telling me?

Cubase 4

Sonar 6 < What is the difference between studio edition and producer edition?

Cubase SE3 <the difference?

Fruity Loops Studio <Good recording capibilitys?, I havn't seen a better piano roll yet. I might consider going fruity. ;D)

Reason (I've been using this for awhile, I hate to say this, but it's just to limited, the sequencer is something I like alot though, very good stuff in my opinon, the piano roll can go to hell though)

You can tell me about other programs too.

I'm looking for a program, that is pattern based sequencing, while at the same time, having linear sequencing, I can't really explain it, like, having fruity loops for drums, and having sonar or something for the melody. get where i'm coming at dawg?

[OverCoat]

THE PIANO ROLL, I MUST HAVE A GOOD PIANO ROLL OR I WILL DIE.

Sonar and FL Studio have the best ones, in my experience. Also, both are generally fine pieces of software but there's a big difference in workflow between the two.

AnywHEY WAIT A MINUTE

just download the demos! you're in no hurry, try these things out for yourself. In the interest of time anyway, check out FL Studio or Sonar first.

And Renoise. Not enough Renoise love here :[

[anosou]

And Renoise. Not enough Renoise love here :[

Word!10charlimit

[Skrypnyk]

As far as I know:

Pro tools is really good for recording.

Cubase (not sure which one) is excellent for midi

FLStudio has a better piano roll then Reason.

[Kanthos]

I've tried and own FL Studio 7 and Cubase 4, and have tried demos of Sonar, Reason, and Live (although those were well over a year ago and I don't remember much about either of them, only that I found FL Studio best at the time). Cubase is by far the better choice, for me. FL Studio's piano roll is definitely better, but I prefer to input using a MIDI keyboard or via live recording, so that's not as important for me. Cubase's big win, for me, is the tempo track and the fact that you can change time signatures as often as you want. The recording tools seem more natural in Cubase, and the fact that the interface is oriented around seeing the parts for the entire song as opposed to working with shorter patterns and combining them to form a song is a plus too; I like having everything in one window instead of having to deal with the Song window in FL Studio.

EDIT: I also find Cubase to perform better. The time spent to open a track is shorter than FL Studio for songs with roughly equivalent length and the same set of instruments. This is probably because Steinberg defined the VST standard and understand how to incorporate it into their DAWs better than anyone else. Either way, the loading is noticeably faster in Cubase on my machine.

[anosou]

FLStudio has a better piano roll then Reason.

Kill u!

No but seriously, Check out reason 4. The sequencer has got a MAJOR face lift. And the new synth Thor is amazing too

[SenPi]

personally I dont understand why people like fl's piano roll better than reason? Is it just the fact that you can insert and delete without ... OH NOES!! PRESSING ANOTHER KEY TO CHANGE THE TOOL?!?!? OMG!!!.. aside from that.. I really dont get why ppl like fl's piano roll better.. Ive used both quite a lot and I still say reasons is better XD..

[Skrypnyk]

Is it just the fact that you can insert and delete without ... OH NOES!! PRESSING ANOTHER KEY TO CHANGE THE TOOL?!?!? OMG!!!

uhhh...yea, that's pretty much the reason right there.

[OceansAndrew]

uhhh...yea, that's pretty much the reason right there.

That'd be a deal-breaker for me too. No idea what FL does, but garageband's rightclick/leftclick works pretty nice.

[Garii]

I'm pretty new a sequencing, but I like the feel of Cubase more than the others. Not much difference between 3 and 4, apart from a few extras in the effects department and some extra tools. SE is the light edition of 3 though, as cubase studio is the light edition of 4. If you want something heavy duty, you'll want SX3 or just plain ol' 4.

In the Mac department, I'm pretty fond of Logic Pro 7. That has a good flow too, but it seems pretty limited to me compared to cubase.

I can't really tell you anything about the others... havn't really used them.

[Fray]

I certainly like Sonar's piano roll Don't have too much to compare it to. Producer edition comes mostly with better instrument and effects plugins; I don't think it has anything special for sequencing purposes except for maybe the drum patterns that come with Session Drummer.

Don't get me wrong though -- the plugins that come with Producer edition are WELL worth the extra money.

From my understanding Pro Tools isn't all that hot in the sequencer department, unless they really beefed it up in a recent version. I believe its strengths have more to do with stability and exclusive high-end hardware and plugins. Someone's going to get mad at me for saying this, but: it's really more for the recording studio fat cats -- they don't need to sequence because they can hire musicians ^.^

[Moseph]

Can't really make any comments about pattern-based capabilities of any of these programs, since I mostly do linear stuff.

Pro Tools -- Pro Tools is designed for audio recording (and does a really, really good job with it), but its piano roll capabilities are limited compared to more MIDI oriented programs such as Sonar and Cubase. In my opinion, the biggest problem Pro Tools has is that you cannot view multiple tracks of MIDI data on the same piano roll (as far as I know, this is still true for the most recent versions).

If you go with Pro Tools and are using a PC (especially a laptop), check the Digidesign site before you buy to make sure your computer is supported. I understand that some people have compatibility issues when running it on a PC.

Sonar -- Sonar (which I use and like) can do multiple tracks on one piano roll, and I think Cubase (which I've never used) can also do this. This lets you see all of your notes in one place without having to switch among lots of different tracks. Kinda important, at least to me.

As Fray mentioned, the difference between Sonar Studio and Producer is basically the number of plug-ins they come with. I think you can upgrade to Producer after buying Studio for about the same as the price difference between the two versions, so if you want Producer but don't want to spend that much, you can always get Studio and upgrade later if you decide you definitely need the additional stuff.

Also, Sonar is Windows-only. Not sure which OS(es) you use, since you have both Sonar and Logic (Mac-only) on your list.

Reason -- Like Pro Tools, it can't do multiple tracks on a single piano roll (this refers to Reason 3; I'm not sure about Reason 4). Generally limited piano roll features, as I think you've discovered.

Cubase -- Never used it, so I can't say much about it.

FL -- Never used it. I think it's the cheapest, though.

Logic -- I've only used it for basic audio editing, and I'm not familiar with its MIDI/piano roll features. Mac-only.

If you're using a Mac, you might also want to check out Digital Performer. It basically does anything Sonar and Cubase can do.

Acid -- Loops-based, but I haven't used any recent version of it. I think it does audio recording now. Pretty sure it's Windows-only.

[OverCoat]

Additionally, I'd recommend Samplitude over Pro Tools [and I'm sure tons of other people would do the same]. ProTools hasn't changed very much recently and the fact that you need to have "RTAS" synths is kind of ridiculous. Samplitude is also a way better buy.

But, are you going to record multitrack audio? Forget ProTools or Samplitude if you aren't.

[Yoozer]

When I mean Sequencer, I really mean just the sequencer. I've been considering getting a program that allows recordings, such as sonar, cubase, logic, and pro tools. BUT, there is something I TREASURE, AND LOVE, ALOT, AND IT'S THE MIDI SEQUENCER, THE PIANO ROLL, I MUST HAVE A GOOD PIANO ROLL OR I WILL DIE.

Cubase and Logic have the most tools in terms of MIDI editing (and editing afterwards), but gushing over the piano roll is uh. Not practical? It's just a way of viewing the notes, editing can be done better if you learn how to play.

Rate each of the programs below

*EEEEP* stop. Having a lot of experience with all the programs is rather uncommon, unless you work in a music store, and even then you have to specialize. PICK WHAT WORKS FOR YOU - THEY WON'T MAKE YOU A BETTER MUSICIAN.

While Cubase may be excellent in MIDI editing (and it's got an amazingly kick-ass arpeggiator, too - very deep), SX3 sucked compared to just dragging and dropping effects (chain can be any length) or synths (built-in combinator, how cool is that) in Live. Which told me at least that I should go the Live way.

Pro Tools < is it really as good as people are telling me?

No, it isn't. Mostly because you're never going to touch it; you're going to work with Pro-Tools LE or Pro-Tools M-Powered (which are compatible in terms of projects, so you could use it at a small studio and then bring everything over to the big one and load it up directly).

The big plus of PT (non-LE or non-M-Powered) is that is offloads certain things to hardware, and the latter two don't have that hardware so it's your computer doing the crunching. Anyone pointing to professional producers using it shouldn't be trusted (for you're not going to get that unless you're prepared to plonk down several thousands); anyone working with it in a project studio telling you should should keep your scope in mind - if you're not recording an entire band and just layer your tracks one by one, it won't be much more useful.

The RTAS stuff can be solved by a wrapper, by the way, so you can still run VST effects.

Cubase 4

Which is good in MIDI editing, but it depends if the workflow fits with you - Cubase is rather conservative after all and expects you to think in a certain way that relates to the hardware studios.

Sonar 6 < What is the difference between studio edition and producer edition?

If you have to ask, you're doing it wrong. Search for a comparison chart.

Cubase SE3 <the difference?

SE3 and SX3 are no longer supported. In fact, when I asked tech support that I wanted to sell SX3 and maybe had to fill out some forms, it wasn't necessary. SE3 + extras = Studio 4.

Fruity Loops Studio <Good recording capibilitys?, I havn't seen a better piano roll yet. I might consider going fruity. ;D)

Uh, yeah, why wouldn't you?

Reason (I've been using this for awhile, I hate to say this, but it's just to limited, the sequencer is something I like alot though, very good stuff in my opinon, the piano roll can go to hell though)

Whatever they say about 4, sign up as a beta tester or wait until 4 is actually released, or demand hard screenshots of existing features explaining step by step how things are done. Don't buy on the basis of promise - "oh, that'll be there in an update" is not worth it.

You can tell me about other programs too.

Ableton Live, but its piano roll is rather minimal. It's got the MIDI thingies mainly in the shape of MIDI effects processors. What Cubase does with the quantizing in the menu, Live solves in another way. Quantizing has to be done manually, though.

get where i'm coming at dawg?

The "how" will last 5 years, the "why" will last you forever. Don't frack around too much with the tool; if FL works for you at the moment, nobody else can decide for you that it's not professional enough.

[anosou]

if you're not recording an entire band and just layer your tracks one by one, it won't be much more useful.

Why is everyone saying this? This is wrong. ProTools is much more than just recording multiple tracks. ProTools has a simple, fast interface (except it's a tiny bit outdated in the midi-part, something I'm solving with rewire), it's extremely stable, it comes with the best suite of plug-ins around, it offers really good sound quality because it's bundled with high-class soundcards and the audio editing part is unbeatable.

So the talk about PT being only for multi-track recording is just not right. What makes PT only for recording multiple audio tracks at the same time? Sure it's good and stable, but that's not all it is. I think you're all missjudging PT.

also, every program is good. No DAW is bad, they all are up to date with most new features and offers great functions everyone of them. It's just a question of finding something that fits your workflow and what you're trying to do.

I'm using Reason coupled with Live and later ProTools. Reason because of the massive ammount of great sounds at the cost of second-to-no CPU power, rewired into the idea-breading Live. Live gives me tons of options and ways to manipulate the track in new ways. Then into ProTools for mastering, effects (did I mention the amazing plug-in bundle?) and recording and editing of audio tracks. Also Reason+ProTools is great too, you get a really great DAW and interface + a great midi sequencer with amazing sounds at the same time.

This is just me though

[Groovemaster303]

To be honest whatever you get you will grow to love. if your used to Reason you will prefer it over anything else same with Fruity etc etc.

[Nicholestien]

I'm looking to create a remix that is unique. Something that sounds different then the rest. And I don't mean just a bunch of self made sound effects. After looking it over, really hard, I'm defanantly leaning towards FL Studio. I'm pretty sure Soft synths got me covered bros and brahs. I don't need programs like sonar or cubase, because I feel FL Studio is the king of MIDI and soft synths. if you feel i'm wrong post your opinons on why i'm wrong. and I will evalute them as such.

Which remix's on this site where done with FL Studio, I listened to alot of Zircons remix's and I hear he is an FL Studio user, I would like to make a hybrid of his type of music, and incorporatz more "ACOUSTICS" sounds like pianos violins choirs and stuff. CHOIRS are very important to me because I love the beatuful voice of the human and the stars and the sun and stuff.

CAN IT BE DONE WITH FL STUDIO!? WILL IZOTOPE OZONE GET THE JOB DONE BROS?!

AH BRAHS I'M SO BAFFELED!

[Nicholestien]

another question, what type of monitors am i looking for in a fruity loops mansion? near field monitors or what? what is bi-amplified? I'm confused.

[Fray]

I'm looking to create a remix that is unique.

The DAW you select will have no impact on whether or not your remix sounds unique. I think Yoozer was on to you before the rest of us

The quality of your acoustic sounds will have more to do with what samples you dig up. I don't know that FL comes with much in this department, but you can always hunt down soundfonts. Or buy one of the packages like GPO. Some of the physically modelled VST's coming out are pretty good too.

Pro Tools isn't useable only for multitrack recording -- it's more like it only justifies its cost if that's what you're doing.

[Nicholestien]

oh, ok, so if i went and baought a daw for 50$ called music studio and had some high quality samples i'm all good right?

nah, i don't think things work that way. DAW in my opinon does have impacts on you, because they all have there limitations.

[Yoozer]

oh, ok, so if i went and baought a daw for 50$ called music studio and had some high quality samples i'm all good right?

Yeah, because that's exactly the argument I made. No.

Basically, everything you name there except Reason supports VST plugins. That means that the quality of the synthesizer or the effect is everywhere the same; the plugin won't magically do something else. Furthermore, there's the summing engine myth; don't bother, because they've done the actual tests on that, and the engine doesn't make a difference. All do their number-crunching exactly the same way. What matters way more is outboard; the quality of your microphones, or if you use an analog summing box (don't bother with that), or if you put it through outboard compression (don't bother with that either; a plugin sounds better than an Alesis 3630).

As for the $50, I think EnergyXT and Reaper would like a word with you, and Ardour or Renoise or Skaletracker too. They're different from the regular "hay guys let's play with Lego blocks only these make sound!" ones because they support plugins in the first place. Something like Magix Music Studio isn't aimed at someone who wants to make their own stuff; Garageband comes with a metric ton of loops. Why? Because these are about letting non-musicians make music (or at least, make 'm think they are making music). GB is basically the free heroin so that those who are interested in more will buy Logic or Logic Express.

nah, i don't think things work that way. DAW in my opinon does have impacts on you, because they all have there limitations.

The DAW you have has a certain philosophy behind it. Cubase 4 has for instance, support for video files and surround sound, and advanced dithering algorithms. This is something you pay extra for - generally because you -need- it. If you're working with FL, you choose for a different interface, but you also choose for not having to work with video or surround, which is fine because we still don't have 6 ears.

So, if you'd buy Cubase 4 - sure, why not, go ahead - you're paying extra for options you're most likely not going to use, plus you have to completely re-learn your way of making music at all, and it won't make you a better musician. The built-in plugins aren't as spectacular as actual money can buy - they're just capable replacements for in the meantime. Doesn't mean they can't be good - in fact, Logic has some pretty nifty built-in stuff - but you're not limited to them either.

Why is everyone saying this? This is wrong. ProTools is much more than just recording multiple tracks.

It is however its main strength and the fact that one chooses ProTools over another DAW - hardware support for truly zero-latency monitoring.

it offers really good sound quality because it's bundled with high-class soundcards

I don't think Nicholestien (or for that matter, I or most people here) can afford a full Digi rig, so PT LE or M-Powered or the Digi 003 interfaces would be the other choice; and the 003 costs 2200 bucks. Alright, the M-Box is cheaper.

and the audio editing part is unbeatable.

Now, that's a good argument, but this guy is gushing over piano rolls .

another question, what type of monitors am i looking for

What's your budget?

near field monitors or what?

Mid-field or mainfield is about 2-4 meters away from you, and those are a -lot- bigger; you need near-fields because you're not going to build them into a wall.

what is bi-amplified?

It means that there are separate amplifiers for both the woofer (big, low-mid frequencies) and the tweeter. (small, high frequencies)

I'm confused.

No, you just have to learn the jargon.

[Skrypnyk]

Which remix's on this site where done with FL Studio, I listened to alot of Zircons remix's and I hear he is an FL Studio user, I would like to make a hybrid of his type of music, and incorporatz more "ACOUSTICS" sounds like pianos violins choirs and stuff. CHOIRS are very important to me because I love the beatuful voice of the human and the stars and the sun and stuff.

It's sad, because when you bring zircon's name into the equation, you're either have to set up a second morgage for your house, or be stuck and confused for years to come.

Plus you bring up choirs and acoustic sounds, which will only hurt your wallet even more.

[anosou]

It is however its main strength and the fact that one chooses ProTools over another DAW - hardware support for truly zero-latency monitoring.

It is indeed. That's good for a guitar amp recorded with two mics and many other things a remixer might need. So it's not a bad thing

I don't think Nicholestien (or for that matter, I or most people here) can afford a full Digi rig, so PT LE or M-Powered or the Digi 003 interfaces would be the other choice; and the 003 costs 2200 bucks. Alright, the M-Box is cheaper.

PTLE gives high-class interfaces too. If you look at the price for, let's say an Mbox 2 Pro Factory, it's an unbeatable price because of the great hardware bundled with the amazing and versatile software you actually get. While FL might need some heavy investment in NI instruments to get you were you want. In the end you'll all end up paying that ammount of money (if you're that serious ofc) and when you've payed the same ammount that the Mbox 2 Pro Factory would cost, you would still get more for your money with PT. At least in my opinion

Now, that's a good argument, but this guy is gushing over piano rolls .

Yeah.. I realized that after I posted still, you can do some awesome beat manipulating and soundscultping with PT's audio editing. Just FIY

Also Nicholestien. Go to the DAW's homepages, check the videos out or whatever. I'll promise you that you'll thing everyone is awesome and lets you do everything you dream of. No one of this daws is worse than the other. It's a question of getting to know it in a way that makes it works for you.

Also, I'd like to make a shout out to Reason 4, what many people misses when they go on and on about no VSTs and not the best piano roll is that it's one of the daws with the most possibilities to get unique sounds. Mainly because of it's highly modular interface where you can route anything to anywhere. This can let you control whatever with whatever, effect whatever with whatever and make all sounds possible. It's just , as I said, a matter of getting to know it.

(also, everyone interested in cool stuff should check out what you can do with Thor without the oscillators using only it's filters and modulation capabilities. Dayum.)

[Nicholestien]

Yeah, because that's exactly the argument I made. No.

Basically, everything you name there except Reason supports VST plugins. That means that the quality of the synthesizer or the effect is everywhere the same; the plugin won't magically do something else. Furthermore, there's the summing engine myth; don't bother, because they've done the actual tests on that, and the engine doesn't make a difference. All do their number-crunching exactly the same way. What matters way more is outboard; the quality of your microphones, or if you use an analog summing box (don't bother with that), or if you put it through outboard compression (don't bother with that either; a plugin sounds better than an Alesis 3630).

As for the $50, I think EnergyXT and Reaper would like a word with you, and Ardour or Renoise or Skaletracker too. They're different from the regular "hay guys let's play with Lego blocks only these make sound!" ones because they support plugins in the first place. Something like Magix Music Studio isn't aimed at someone who wants to make their own stuff; Garageband comes with a metric ton of loops. Why? Because these are about letting non-musicians make music (or at least, make 'm think they are making music). GB is basically the free heroin so that those who are interested in more will buy Logic or Logic Express.

The DAW you have has a certain philosophy behind it. Cubase 4 has for instance, support for video files and surround sound, and advanced dithering algorithms. This is something you pay extra for - generally because you -need- it. If you're working with FL, you choose for a different interface, but you also choose for not having to work with video or surround, which is fine because we still don't have 6 ears.

So, if you'd buy Cubase 4 - sure, why not, go ahead - you're paying extra for options you're most likely not going to use, plus you have to completely re-learn your way of making music at all, and it won't make you a better musician. The built-in plugins aren't as spectacular as actual money can buy - they're just capable replacements for in the meantime. Doesn't mean they can't be good - in fact, Logic has some pretty nifty built-in stuff - but you're not limited to them either.

It is however its main strength and the fact that one chooses ProTools over another DAW - hardware support for truly zero-latency monitoring.

I don't think Nicholestien (or for that matter, I or most people here) can afford a full Digi rig, so PT LE or M-Powered or the Digi 003 interfaces would be the other choice; and the 003 costs 2200 bucks. Alright, the M-Box is cheaper.

Now, that's a good argument, but this guy is gushing over piano rolls .

What's your budget?

Mid-field or mainfield is about 2-4 meters away from you, and those are a -lot- bigger; you need near-fields because you're not going to build them into a wall.

It means that there are separate amplifiers for both the woofer (big, low-mid frequencies) and the tweeter. (small, high frequencies)

No, you just have to learn the jargon.

my budget is over 10,000$ now. I've been saving up for about a year and a half. >_>

but, I plan on buying only what I know I can work with. I was goign to buy UAD ultra pak, but then I looked at the plugins and realized I don't know what the **** those do. so it would have been 1,000$ down the drain. I just want a very expandible sound set, alot of crazy things I can work with, I don't like working with those effects proccessors, and i have a very small room.

I was just thinking about getting fl studio, a bunch of soft synths, a decent audio interface and a decent monitors. Then spend my left over money on a car and get some poon tang.

[Nicholestien]

oh yeah, thanks for not going over board yoozer, i know i'm pissing you off. you have the patience young one. =P