Vision of Celes WIP (resubmit from judges)

[Gorgonian14]

OK, so the judges mostly okayed my arrangement, but didn't care for some of my samples and production in general (the trumpet especially). I have been working on it for a week or so and would like some feedback on progress and things I can do better.

Here is the current version, as of last night:

http://pwatts14.googlepages.com/visionofceles.mp3

Here is the submitted version, rejected because of production quality (particularly the trumpet sample):

http://pwatts14.googlepages.com/VisionofCelesbyGorgonian.mp3

The astute listener will also notice a few changes in the arrangement, of course, but not many (though one is fairly major). The bulk of the work is being done on samples and production (particularly EQ). I'm fairly clueless about this stuff, so ANY help or comment is appreciated.

Thanks.

[Radiowar]

Sounds like a pretty significant improvement to me. This is really good, I think it would pass. The sample issue might come up again but I think you've done enough that it could be overlooked. Reminds me a lot of Eluvium's last album where the music was good enough that the samples don't really matter.

[Chickenwarlord]

The swirls in the background at the beginning detract quite a bit from the clarinet in a bad way. It's not a major issue, just a minor quibble. Nice transition at 2:19.

Don't overuse that percussion pattern. It kind of sticks out to me.

Nice arrangement of the source. Overall, I'd work on making the percussion rolls more integrated. There are places where it feels like they're playing for no reason at all. If you do decide to keep them exactly where they are, at least do something to make them fit in better with the rest of the soundscape.

[Sil]

Sounds good to me.

You're probably done with the arrangement, but for future reference, try not to make the accompanying harmonies just a wall of block chords. I know this sound is typical of vg music, but if you really want to go for the classical sound, listen to some Ravel or Vaughan Williams and get a feel for the moving string parts that can make up the harmonic backdrop. I think I hear something to this effect at 2:37 in the clarinet and harp, but it's way too quiet. Why not make those horns play syncopated quarters?

After the crescendo at 2:18, instead of whole notes in the strings, why not half notes? You'd want to use the same kind of rules in choral part-writing, especially in the bass line to fill in those empty ranges, and changing the rhythm from whole notes to something smaller drives the piece forward.

Another effect you could use is to avoid the downbeat and have the harmony come in on beat 2 (along with timpani and anything else) which creates the illusion of counterpoint.

Speaking of counterpoint, there isn't much here. I recall Uematsu had some descending figures in the horns that you decided not to use. If you ask me, the best kind of counterpoint for string-based pieces is plucked bass pizzicatos in any sort of slow, dance-like rhythm (this goes hand-in-hand with syncopated horn rhythms as well.) Faure's music is a good example of this, and I'm sure you could really enhance the first 2 minutes of this piece with some light, plucked downbeats an octave below the cellos.

Keep at it!

[Nutritious]

Ok, so I downloaded both versions and had quite a bit of criticism typed out when I realized I switched the two versions around. Time to start over.

Jeremy has already given you some excellent criticism on the arrangement, so I'm just going to be nitpicking on technical stuff.

Woodwinds are sounding a lot better at the beginning. The clarinet is still sounding a bit rigid on the attacks, like the player is tonguing each note on the attack. Listen to the three ascending notes at :20 to hear what I mean. It's real nitpicky, but I think it'll help if you can smooth it out.

Oboe sounds a little awkward on the high note at :53, like it's a different timbre (probably due to sample setup). You can sometimes fix this by pitch bending a lower note (that is in the same timbre as the previous notes) to the pitch for the high note rather than just using the original sampled high note. That way, it's not changing to the higher register timbre and sounds more natural. If this is confusing, feel free to PM me or something and I'll try to explain better.

Sustained fluteish notes at 1:57 and 2:08 are sounding a little weird. I think it's because of the fast vibrato rate and strong attack on the 2:08 note. Do you have a different sample you can use here? I think it wasn't as noticible before because you don't have long sustained notes at the beginning of the song as you do here.

Brass is sounding a lot better, though something's sounding a bit synthetic on the left channel starting around 2:23. Strings I think, though other stuff might be layered with them. I'm not sure if it's the sample or the chord, but it sounds a little weird.

Trumpet's getting really high at 2:54, at least I think it's a trumpet. Maybe it's high strings? It's sounding unnatural so high pitched and some of the notes are a little disonnent. For example, 3:06 - 3:10, conflicting vibrato is making things sound out of tune.

Trumpet sample has a weird timbre for two notes at 3:47. Similar to the oboe before, I think this is due to changing timbre in the higher notes of the sample. Try pitch-bending lower notes up and see if it helps.

I really like what you've done here, which is why I'm so critical of the small stuff in this song. Hope it didn't sound too negative, but I prefer to have specific things that I can work on in my music. Good luck to you.

[Gorgonian14]

Woodwinds are sounding a lot better at the beginning. The clarinet is still sounding a bit rigid on the attacks, like the player is tonguing each note on the attack. Listen to the three ascending notes at :20 to hear what I mean. It's real nitpicky, but I think it'll help if you can smooth it out.

On the list of things to do already.

Oboe sounds a little awkward on the high note at :53, like it's a different timbre (probably due to sample setup). You can sometimes fix this by pitch bending a lower note (that is in the same timbre as the previous notes) to the pitch for the high note rather than just using the original sampled high note. That way, it's not changing to the higher register timbre and sounds more natural. If this is confusing, feel free to PM me or something and I'll try to explain better.

Also on the list. Your suggestion for a fix is a good idea to try. I hadn't thought of that idea.

Sustained fluteish notes at 1:57 and 2:08 are sounding a little weird. I think it's because of the fast vibrato rate and strong attack on the 2:08 note. Do you have a different sample you can use here? I think it wasn't as noticible before because you don't have long sustained notes at the beginning of the song as you do here.

Hadn't noticed that one before. Good catch. I think just decreasing the volume of the flute will work, but I will play around with some different things.

Brass is sounding a lot better, though something's sounding a bit synthetic on the left channel starting around 2:23. Strings I think, though other stuff might be layered with them. I'm not sure if it's the sample or the chord, but it sounds a little weird.

I don't hear what you hear on this one. Strings and trombones have background chords here. I guess that's what you are talking about. I can probably pull them back a bit in volume to see if it sounds a little better.

Trumpet's getting really high at 2:54, at least I think it's a trumpet. Maybe it's high strings? It's sounding unnatural so high pitched and some of the notes are a little disonnent. For example, 3:06 - 3:10, conflicting vibrato is making things sound out of tune.

It's high strings and high woodwinds. I'm not exactly sure what you are hearing here either, but I will pay closer attention. There are some tuning issues with the trumpet sample I'm using in the range that it is in in this area, so I'm wondering if you aren't hearing some of my imperfect attempts to correct that.

Trumpet sample has a weird timbre for two notes at 3:47. Similar to the oboe before, I think this is due to changing timbre in the higher notes of the sample. Try pitch-bending lower notes up and see if it helps.

Yep. Will try that trick here, as well. Have been struggling trying to soften those two notes for awhile now with no real idea how to do it. Yours is a good idea.

I really like what you've done here, which is why I'm so critical of the small stuff in this song. Hope it didn't sound too negative, but I prefer to have specific things that I can work on in my music. Good luck to you.

Thank you, and not at all. This is exactly the kind of thing I wanted. I really appreciate it.

[Gorgonian14]

New version, tried fixing all of the things in the above post.

http://pwatts14.googlepages.com/visionofceles.mp3

[HoboKa]

I'll let them do all the critiquing ^^. I have to say that this is definately OC material, in fact it surpasses quite a few of the Final Fantasy remixes IMO, rearrangement wise anyways. I'm new to this stuff, but even I know that this is passable, if not well, it's damned near . Hope you hit pay dirt Gorgonian.

Oh and, BTW I like the trumpet sample...I noticed that most remixers tend to avoid brass instruments as if they had suddenly sprouted a million thorns, gives it an authentic feel ^^.

[OceansAndrew]

Much improved over the original, and it's good to actually see a resub posted.

The trumpet is still not quite what I think it could be, but the improvement is very apparent. with brass the issue always seems to be an unnatural attack, but i'm not sure what you can s[ecifically do to this sample to improve it, besides adjusting the velocities of the attacks and modwheeling them as the note plays to get a more natural sounding crescendo.

Regardless, this is a step up and I think it'll do much better with the judges.

[Blue Assassin]

New version, tried fixing all of the things in the above post.

http://pwatts14.googlepages.com/visionofceles.mp3

My only problem with it is that it's considerably quieter than most of the other songs on my playlist, so if I'm not paying attention entirely, I end up with ~4 minutes of near to no sound. Mind you, beyond that everything sounds quite fine

[Nutritious]

My only problem with it is that it's considerably quieter than most of the other songs on my playlist, so if I'm not paying attention entirely, I end up with ~4 minutes of near to no sound. Mind you, beyond that everything sounds quite fine

Not unusual for orchestral pieces, mainly because many musicians prefer to use no compression on them to preserve the sound quality.

[Liontamer]

Preety swank now. You already got my vote. Good luck with the rest, though I'm feeling pretty confident on it.

[Gorgonian14]

hooray! thanks for the vote and the update.

[Midian_Galaxus]

Beautiful, that's all I have to say. The definitive version of Celes' theme in my regards. It makes me wish that the game were being remade for next-gen and that Uematsu didn't even bother arranging her theme himself. He would have to use this one.