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ILLiterate

Street Fighter IV

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Guild Wars took this a step further, removing the grind almost entirely, and it has been very successful.

This is completely off topic, but I just wanted to mention that I think Guild Wars was amazing. If I knew that a bunch of people were going to buy GW2 when it comes out, I'd get it for sure.

In any case, I don't think the game has been out for a long enough period of time to really validate the neccessity of the crazy link combos -- especially when you take damage scaling into account.

Example:

Chun-Li's J. Roundhouse, cr. MK --> LK Legs, crouching MK --> super is ridiculously difficult to perform. You have to stick in LK presses between the roundhouse and the crouching MK in order to get the LK Legs to cancel, afterwards you must connect a one-frame link into the crouching MK.

That crazy combo above does less damage than J .HP, fireball --> super. Meaning that there is almost no reason to do it ever. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that a majority of the crazy trial mode combos are like this, and we won't be seeing many of these from players, even those at the highest level.

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That WoW analogy doesn't work at all. Why? Because of level caps. Once you hit lvl.80, you're capped and can't go any higher. Anything else you achieve is due to pure skill, and let me tell you that in this regard, there are people in PvP in Guild Wars and WoW that WILL ream you. You can't expect everyone to be casual and crappy-go-lucky on an online game. You want casual? You're gonna have to play amongst your casual gamer friends.

Nah, you just strengthed my WoW analogy more. I played that game for thousands of hours at the highest level, best PVP/PVE guilds, etc., so I knew it backwards and forwards. The game is popular because it's easy to get to a high level and access lots of content. Doesn't mean you'll be GOOD at all the content, but you can try to run the same raids as other guilds, play vs. the same people, and so on. As compared with EverQuest, where to do raids of the Planes you had to play for thousands of hours. That's the difference.

I'll keep saying it, and keep in mind that I'm not even using other games in the genre as a reference, and it really WOULD be nice if people would objectively look at games for what THEY are as opposed to what they are COMPARED to other games. He wasn't badmouthing SFIV, but he still used Guilty Gear as a reference, which implies that he thought it did things better. It didn't do anything better. It did things differently.

OK, so by your logic, with regards to comparing games, no one can make any critiques of any games ever. No game can be better or worse than another one, just "different". If that's your opinion, fine, but then I guess we're not allowed to say any aspect of any game is better or worse than any aspect of any other game.

If you have ANY game experience, ANY at all, and you're interested in a fighter, SFIV is STILL a great way to get into it.

I disagree. SFIV is harder to play than HD Remix, IMO. HDRemix was the first fighter I put any real time into (very very casually played some SF games years ago) and I found myself doing well in ranked matches without that much practice. In SF4, the design changes make it simply harder to get good at.

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I disagree. SFIV is harder to play than HD Remix, IMO. HDRemix was the first fighter I put any real time into (very very casually played some SF games years ago) and I found myself doing well in ranked matches without that much practice. In SF4, the design changes make it simply harder to get good at.

Once again, it's like we're playing completely different games here. I've never been particularly good at street fighter games, but I found SF4 much easier to get better at than SF2THD.

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Once again, it's like we're playing completely different games here. I've never been particularly good at street fighter games, but I found SF4 much easier to get better at than SF2THD.

It depends on how deep you want to go. Let's make a chart, shall we?

SF2HDR --------------------------------------------------------------SF4

-Casually playing --------------------------------------------------Casual playing

------easier motions to execute ------------------------------------------harder motions, but more forgiving on input

-Mid-range playing-------------------------------------------------Mid-range playing

------Combos w/o links -----------------------------------------------------combos w/o links, more forgiving input

------Reversals MUCH harder ---------------------------------------------Reversals very easy, even on crossup

------n/a ---------------------------------------------------------------------------Focus Attacks, absorbing / parries

------n/a ---------------------------------------------------------------------------cancelling Supers from specials

-High-level play ----------------------------------------------------High-level play

-----1 frame links for some -------------------------------------------------1 frame links for EVERY character

-----using Supers in combos ----------------------------------------------FADC --> combo reset or super/ultra

Now, IMO linking normals together (the level 5 trials) don't come into play until you get to a higher level of play than most of us are currently at. Note that at mid-range play, you still have a lot more to learn in order to be competitive. The same is true at high level play because roman-cancelling (FADC) doesn't exist in HDR.

Therefore, if you want to just dick around, SF4 is much simpler. However, as you practice to a point where you're not flailing around with the buttons, it's easy to see that SF2HDR allows for easier access to the higher levels of play.

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Okay so after some odd number of fights online, I was amazed at the only Gen player I had fought had potential, sadly I put him down with Vega(Claw). :lol:

One Geif, a couple of Kens but mostly I've had to put up with Akuma clones, some good, some hilariously bad...

Is Akuma/Gouki becoming the next "Ken" in regards to being heavily used..? Not even one Dan, Sakura or Gouken...

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Here's the first part of the argument, laid out simply.

(1) Stuff like kara throws and difficult roman cancels make the game's execution more difficult (pure dexterity & 1p training).

(2) The game has been designed, marketed, and presented with the casual gamer in mind (flashy graphics, Ultras & ultra animations, unlockables).

(3) The design "features" in point 1 contradict the apparent philosophy in point 2.

This much is pure deductive reasoning that can't really be argued with.

I agree (except that the flashy graphics, ultras and unlockables aren't really aimed for casual players imo). Everyone can appreciate that. This is not the argument I'm not buying though.

The additional argument Sirlin makes (and I do too) is;

(1) Certain execution barriers make it significantly harder for many people to get to a competitive level of play.

(2) It is preferable for more people to be at the same level of play.

(3) Therefore, it is preferable to reduce certain execution barriers.

Very straightforward.

Here's where we disagree. First, harder than what? SF2, Tekken, Guilty Gear, Virtua Fighter or King of Fighters? It's the comparing that I dislike. For example, this game is easy in my opinion compared to Virtua Fighter 5 for example where you have to memorize pretty much every characters every chain to be good and then learn to time every counter attack and combo. That doesn't make Virtua Fighter a game I complain at because "it would be preferable for more people to be at the same level of play". Virtua Fighter is one of the deepest fighters avaliable and you SHOULD be rewarded the more you practice, link combos and move memorizing both good examples. Our philosophies about fighters clearly go apart in other words.

I also still think most people ARE on the same level (mid-range) and I ENJOY the bump you need to get past to get to tournament-level.. It should be something you need to put time and effort in to be able to do. I also think SFIV is PLENTY enough fun without getting to that level of play.

Also some of the "execution barriers" he brought up (two button throw, wake up-game) aren't execution barriers in my opinion. Two button throw actually solved the (according to Sirlin: non-existant) problem of throwing by mistake for me. I very much prefer it.

What pisses me off is that no one respects this as my opinion but instead tries to "prove me wrong". Even with everything you said above it IS your and Sirlin's personal subjective opinion about the game. Probably based on previous experiences. That has been my main point all along :/ I haven't tried to say Sirlin's opinion isn't "right", just that I have another one and it's just as valid.

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Okay so after some odd number of fights online, I was amazed at the only Gen player I had fought had potential, sadly I put him down with Vega(Claw). :lol:

One Geif, a couple of Kens but mostly I've had to put up with Akuma clones, some good, some hilariously bad...

Is Akuma/Gouki becoming the next "Ken" in regards to being heavily used..? Not even one Dan, Sakura or Gouken...

I use Sakura almost exclusively on my ranked matches. I keep running into Akumas and Kens like crazy though.

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I like using Ken. There I said it.

I've been using him since before SF2 went TURBO.

I'm trying to branch out though.

Also looking into Sakura, Abel, Rose, and I appear to be the only person even vaguely interested in Viper. (I refuse to acknowledge that C.)

Because C.Viper (pronounced See Viper) was a Pokémon first? :| That's fool's logic. M. Bison and E. Honda just wouldn't be the same without their initials scrubbed off, think of the consequences :-P

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Previous argument aside (anso you misunderstood me yet again, "harder" means "harder than without these features", not "harder than another game) I'm still mad at SF4 for making Fei into an even CRAPPIER character. The only thing he has going for him is a set of decent pokes. He has no way to get through fireballs except EX moves - but then again, most characters have that - his Chicken Wing is harder to do, has less priority, and doesn't hit overhead, his Rekkas aren't safe on block (except *maybe* jab rekkas, and even that, not really), you can't link into his ultra from anything, and his Tenshin command grab sucks. When I went back to HDR it was amazing how powerful he was in that, and even in THAT game he's considered lower-tier.

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Previous argument aside (anso you misunderstood me yet again, "harder" means "harder than without these features", not "harder than another game) I'm still mad at SF4 for making Fei into an even CRAPPIER character. The only thing he has going for him is a set of decent pokes. He has no way to get through fireballs except EX moves - but then again, most characters have that - his Chicken Wing is harder to do, has less priority, and doesn't hit overhead, his Rekkas aren't safe on block (except *maybe* jab rekkas, and even that, not really), you can't link into his ultra from anything, and his Tenshin command grab sucks. When I went back to HDR it was amazing how powerful he was in that, and even in THAT game he's considered lower-tier.

That was so not my point :cry: I think I made a killer argument this time around! You suck man! :tomatoface:

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Previous argument aside (anso you misunderstood me yet again, "harder" means "harder than without these features", not "harder than another game) I'm still mad at SF4 for making Fei into an even CRAPPIER character. The only thing he has going for him is a set of decent pokes. He has no way to get through fireballs except EX moves - but then again, most characters have that - his Chicken Wing is harder to do, has less priority, and doesn't hit overhead, his Rekkas aren't safe on block (except *maybe* jab rekkas, and even that, not really), you can't link into his ultra from anything, and his Tenshin command grab sucks. When I went back to HDR it was amazing how powerful he was in that, and even in THAT game he's considered lower-tier.

And you know what's really stupid? Fei Long has an infinite (requiring 1-frame links) on Abel and Seth. Haha.

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if anyone is ever good enough at any fighting that they are able to do things that require 1 frame inputs they need to be eliminated

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I can't for the life of me figure out how the revenge system works. I read carefully through the manual and it just doesn't put it in terms I can understand.

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Revenge system = ultra combos. You get hit, ultra gauge fills up, when it's full to level 1 you can use your ultra combo. When it fills to level 2 the move is even stronger. Really simple.

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K, well...I just wanted to say fighting against this Seth guy as the computer is a big load of fuck.

You know what really pisses me off about him too, he always gives you the first battle. As though he knows it won't make a difference. Talk about adding insult to injury. What a prick. Its retarded.

I should probably take a break, I've been playing all night. It's 6:00 am here. My reaction time probably isn't what it was when I started.

I. Can't. Fucking. Win. Him.

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You know what really pisses me off about him too, he always gives you the first battle. As though he knows it won't make a difference. Talk about adding insult to injury. What a prick. Its retarded.

I find it that if you ever go on the defense you're royally screwed. Don't be scared and bum rush him as much as you can without letting up and not allowing yourself to turtle up; Managed to beat Seth down easy on hard mode with Vega & Balrog, same with the others if only a bit different with each character.

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K, well...I just wanted to say fighting against this Seth guy as the computer is a big load of fuck.

You know what really pisses me off about him too, he always gives you the first battle. As though he knows it won't make a difference. Talk about adding insult to injury. What a prick. Its retarded.

I should probably take a break, I've been playing all night. It's 6:00 am here. My reaction time probably isn't what it was when I started.

I. Can't. Fucking. Win. Him.

Yeah, Seth is ridiculously hard and cheap. What difficulty are you on though? I have no problems on the lowest two, just on "Easy" and higher.

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if anyone is ever good enough at any fighting that they are able to do things that require 1 frame inputs they need to be eliminated

Just so you know, FRCs in Guilty Gear have 2-frame input windows, and all good Guilty Gear players can reliably hit FRCs.

I can hit my FRCs about 60-70% of the time.

A few charcaters have FRCs that are only useful on one of those 2 frames, so they're basically one-frame windows. And yes, people hit those 1-frame windows in tournaments.

It's not so outlandish as you may think.

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