Martial Arts

[DragonFireKai]

Um, no.

The moment you are dealing with more than one mugger/attackers/assailant, your entire style of martial arts goes down the toilet.

While you are busy grappling one guy, his buddy is going to kick you ribs in.

Also, in my experience at my local BJJ school, I don't care how good you are, large guys can be darn near impervious to a lot of grappling. We have a 250lbs marine in our class, and he really is a nice guy and doesn't "try" to be a jerk about the techniques not working on him, but even our instructor has problems trying to successfully perform chokes and holds on the guy. All that talk about being able to grapple anybody regardless of size is baloney.

Don't get me wrong, BJJ is a great style (I've been taking it for almost a year now myself) but be carefuly about getting too fanatic about it, it has it's downsides.

Ok, here we go. Inevitably, almost every serious fight will wind up on the ground. If it doesn't, one combatant was absurdly overmatched. Once the fight has gone to the ground, BJJ is the style that puts you in the best position to win the fight at that stage. While brute strength and size never hurts to have, there are plenty of techniques from any of the primary GFT positions that a person of much smaller size can use leverage to tear a less experienced but larger fighter apart.

When dealing with multiple opponents, that's why you have a striking art to supplement you. And in that situation, there are still some GFT precepts that are extremely useful. Standing locks will let you control an opponents position without giving up your vertical base, standing blood chokes will let you incapacitate your opponents quickly without losing your vertical base. Intentionally taking a fight to ground when outnumbered isn't a bright idea, but if it does go that way, you need to be prepared to deal with that, because it's likely to happen.

... A ring leader of a group? no offence, but muggers don't often have a ring leader, nor do a group of rapist, or a group of drunks, etc this isn't a movie. It's real. I would persoanlly deliver a crisp 100 dollar bill to a guy that can grapple a single mugger/rapist/drunkard out of a group and actually "scare" the other guys away. And even if that did work, do you really want to gamble on it? You can't gamble in a fight.

Violence of action is a fundamental of army combatives. You can scare a combatant from fighting you. It depends on the person, but usually, if you can quickly and violently dispatch an attacker, further attacks are discouraged. This can be accomplished through striking or grappling. If you shoot a two leg takedown onto a hard surface and leave someone with their brain leaking onto the pavement, or break a guy's leg at the knee with a power angle kick, the other attackers will think twice about continuing their attack, especially if they're untrained civillians.

You can come up with all sorts of doomsday scenarios, maybe once I apply a rear naked choke to a guy his friend leaps from the rafters ninja style and decapitates me. Hey, it could happen. But when you're actually in combat, Speed, Violence of Action, and Situational Awareness are paramount. You can reduce the effectiveness of an opponents superior numbers through good spatial awareness and footwork. Don't allow yourself to be surrounded, and maintain a clear avenue of retreat. Something might happen that you couldn't foresee, but in that case, you're screwed regardless, but if your goal is to learn the best combination of styles to allow you the best chance of incapacitating your opponents, then GJJ with Muay Thai and American Boxing is the way to go.

I've taught classes when I've had the time, and I always maintain the seriousness of what it means to be involved in a fight. I've read a lot of books, like On Killing by Dave Grossman, and I've talk to a lot of friends who have served over seas in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as I've had female students who were mugged/raped. again, I take this stuff very seriously.

Why don't you ask your friends overseas what the Army teaches them for hand to hand combat? It's exactly what I've been telling you, because it's what the Army has found to be most effective.

[Fenrir]

I have to agree with Hagane on the grappling with multiple opponents aspect; the last thing you want to do is end up on the ground. BJJ may have ways to adapt and cope with many assailants, but let's be honest here. The main strength of BJJ is the grappling. If you have to deal with more than one attacker, rather than sticking to the striking elements of a grappling art, you'd be better served switching to a style better equipped to handle feet-on-the-ground fighting.

Of course, I think it's important to distinguish learning a martial art to learn a martial art (and any philosophical/spiritual/noncombatative elements that go with that), and learning practical, street self defense.

For example, maybe I want to learn Wushu or Aikido. If someone tries to mug me on the street, I'm sure as hell not going to try and use Aikido unless I've had thirty-odd years of constant practice and experience with it. I'm probably not going to use Wushu either, since the risk of pulling off all the acrobatics without proper stretching could be problematic (unless I happen to be in kickass shape).

That said, lets endeavor to distinguish when someone's talking about aesthetics and principles of a particular art, practical self-defense, or just making a joke.

[RealFolkBlues]

Ok, here we go. Inevitably, almost every serious fight will wind up on the ground.

Aren't the statistics like 70-80 percent?

Violence of action is a fundamental of army combatives. You can scare a combatant from fighting you. It depends on the person, but usually, if you can quickly and violently dispatch an attacker, further attacks are discouraged. This can be accomplished through striking or grappling. If you shoot a two leg takedown onto a hard surface and leave someone with their brain leaking onto the pavement, or break a guy's leg at the knee with a power angle kick, the other attackers will think twice about continuing their attack, especially if they're untrained civillians.

Very true. It's not going to work with every situation, but criminals are still human beings, and therefore subject to the various patterns that humanity follows. There are leaders and followers, born warriors and cowards, and so forth. Above all, though, noone wants to be hurt, injured or killed. If you show within a few seconds that you aren't just a hopeless victim, every situation becomes better for you.

You can come up with all sorts of doomsday scenarios, maybe once I apply a rear naked choke to a guy his friend leaps from the rafters ninja style and decapitates me.

I lol'ed.

Good post overall Kai.

Chaser, dude, you messed the joke up man. That hurts me inside.

[The Pezman]

please tell me both of you are joking? This isn't a video game. Fights are serious and deadly business. I think you guys take the movies and games you play WAY too seriously. Please reconsider the way you guys think about fighting and how they work.

My sensei told me I could go Super Saiyan within two years.

[BlueMage]

I fought my sensei this evening and won. I AM SUPER SAIYAN!!!

No, really, I did spar with him - he went easy on me, let me get a few hits in, only hit me twice.

[WesPip]

Where's that topic about the guy using MGS tactics when we need it?

[DragonFireKai]

Where's that topic about the guy using MGS tactics when we need it?

what, hide in a cardboard box and hope they leave?

[WesPip]

what, hide in a cardboard box and hope they leave?

Not quite.

Someone used the CQC shit in a real situation and kicked some ass, basically.

[Flare4War]

what, hide in a cardboard box and hope they leave?

I think he's thinkin' more along the lines of snap their neck and stuff them in a locker.

[DragonFireKai]

Not quite.

Someone used the CQC shit in a real situation and kicked some ass, basically.

The CQC in MGS3 is pretty much move for move Escrima.

[Flare4War]

Any of you guys watch Uriah Faber fight tonight?

That kid is a #$%@ing animal. Choked out a black belt Brazilian Juijitsu practitioner. After beating his face in pretty good.

He's the freestyle/brawler type mean fucker Injin was warning some of you about.

[1337 1]

what, hide in a cardboard box and hope they leave?

The box is old school. Metal barrels ftw!

[Fenrir]

Any of you guys watch Uriah Faber fight tonight?

That kid is a #$%@ing animal. Choked out a black belt Brazilian Juijitsu practitioner. After beating his face in pretty good.

He's the freestyle/brawler type mean fucker Injin was warning some of you about.

Someone choked out a BJJ blackbelt? Good.

[The Pezman]

Choking out = ?

[Fenrir]

A KO via making the opponent pass out through blood loss to brain. Usually via a chokehold of some sort.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Flare4War]

A KO via making the opponent pass out through blood loss to brain. Usually via a chokehold of some sort.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, that's right.

They can tap-out though. The guy tapped out just in time in this fight. Just in time. lol He staggered pretty hard when he stood up, he was going to sleep for sure.

It was a great fight, you guys should'a seen it.

[I-n-j-i-n]

I saw that fight too, but the submission wasn't all that threatening in itself. It doesn't matter if you get 'choked out' rather than just becoming limp and unable to fight. That is grounds for stoppage in martial arts and MMA rules these days. You simply can't have people get seriously hurt after getting incapacitated.

[Flare4War]

I saw that fight too, but the submission wasn't all that threatening in itself. It doesn't matter if you get 'choked out' rather than just becoming limp and unable to fight. That is grounds for stoppage in martial arts and MMA rules these days. You simply can't have people get seriously hurt after getting incapacitated.

Yeah, that's true.

Uriah hit him with a lot of savage elbows and good'ol fashion punches which really is what gave him the upper hand. Choking him out was just the cherry on top since his opponent was a black belt in BJJ. Nice gouge to the pride.

[The Pezman]

How the hell did this thread get back here?

Before I started doing Chidokwan in college, I did Taekwondo in a neighboring town when I was roughly 8 years old, but stopped at Green belt. Since I was back and have just attained a green belt in Chidokwan, I returned to the dojo to investigate. The assistant instructor from when I was there is now head master, second only to the grand master Cho, who would stop in to train our class from time to time. But the whole damn thing has become such a goddamn business. I felt so disoriented standing in the huge mirrored rooms with lights, speakers and televisions.

[Penfold]

How the hell did this thread get back here?

Before I started doing Chidokwan in college, I did Taekwondo in a neighboring town when I was roughly 8 years old, but stopped at Green belt. Since I was back and have just attained a green belt in Chidokwan, I returned to the dojo to investigate. The assistant instructor from when I was there is now head master, second only to the grand master Cho, who would stop in to train our class from time to time. But the whole damn thing has become such a goddamn business. I felt so disoriented standing in the huge mirrored rooms with lights, speakers and televisions.

So I can't say as I've heard of Chidokwan before...could you tell me more about it?

Anyway, I've seen quite a number of Taekwondo schools around here that sound a lot like the one you're talking about. I guess there are a lot of schools just looking to cash in on the relative popularity of TKD rather than be a place to help develop the martial mind, body, and spirit. It's too bad IMO, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Met with a friend the other day, who had trained in jujutsu and jojutsu, and in conversation with him I mentioned how I didn't personally care for the term "mixed martial arts" because I generally don't perceive those guys as "martial artists." He responded with an antecdote about how his master (same guy for both jujutsu and jojutsu) dislikes the term "martial arts," and rather favors "combative arts." I thought that was pretty interesting.

Also met a Hung Gar practitioner at the gym earlier in the week, who actually trains with a couple buddies of mine. He was practicing several of the forms including staff/spear, and my main comment is that's a definitely a pretty style, especially by striking art standards IMO.

[The Pezman]

So I can't say as I've heard of Chidokwan before...could you tell me more about it?

Interesting question... I'm not really sure where to begin (it doesn't have a Wikipedia entry). It descends from Shotokan which, according to its own Wikipedia entry, is usually divided into three parts: kihon (basics), kata (forms or patterns of moves), and kumite (sparring). That's more or less how we work, except we also work with street defense, Arnis sticks and some very basic groundfighting (though a jujitsu club will be starting up next semester... I'm going to try and partake in that as well). I have a black belt shotokan friend who sometimes shows up to keep in shape, and one big difference is that my instructor always tells us to keep our guard fist next to our head, while in Shotokan the guard fist is always at the stomach (hari). That is our Chidokwan in a nutshell.

[RealFolkBlues]

Anyway, I've seen quite a number of Taekwondo schools around here that sound a lot like the one you're talking about. I guess there are a lot of schools just looking to cash in on the relative popularity of TKD rather than be a place to help develop the martial mind, body, and spirit. It's too bad IMO, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Yeah, it's really unfortunate, but this is America, after all. If doing something will get you a dime, this is the country in which to do it. Still, it's a shame that TKD's previously good name has been marred by so many McDojangs. Traditional TKD has a lot of powerful strikes. If nothing else, it makes explaining my art (Tang Soo Do, another Korean art with many similarities to traditional Tae Kwon Do) more difficult, as I have to emphasize that my school is not competitive and self-defense based.

Also met a Hung Gar practitioner at the gym earlier in the week, who actually trains with a couple buddies of mine. He was practicing several of the forms including staff/spear, and my main comment is that's a definitely a pretty style, especially by striking art standards IMO.

It is that. My sahbohmnim did Hung Gar for a few years, and I've seen some of their stuff. Very flashy. It does have some powerful techniques, though. Getting hit with a double rising palm heel strike is pretty freaking harsh.

[WesPip]

Interesting question... I'm not really sure where to begin (it doesn't have a Wikipedia entry). It descends from Shotokan which, according to its own Wikipedia entry, is usually divided into three parts: kihon (basics), kata (forms or patterns of moves), and kumite (sparring). That's more or less how we work, except we also work with street defense, Arnis sticks and some very basic groundfighting (though a jujitsu club will be starting up next semester... I'm going to try and partake in that as well). I have a black belt shotokan friend who sometimes shows up to keep in shape, and one big difference is that my instructor always tells us to keep our guard fist next to our head, while in Shotokan the guard fist is always at the stomach (hari). That is our Chidokwan in a nutshell.

Hm

I take shotokan, and have for a few years now.

We typically have our back arm/fist covering out solar plexus, and out front basically going from there to our throat. Obviously, if attacked, it's easy enough to shift it upwards to block our face or downwards for our chest.

Thats how WE do it anyways.

[The Pezman]

We typically have our back arm/fist covering out solar plexus, and out front basically going from there to our throat.

I don't know what you mean. So your back fist is down at your stomach like I said, but the front is going to the throat? Your throat? Someone else's throat?

What I meant for us is that our backfist is in a guard and hangs out near our chin in Chidokwan. When my friend practices with us he always puts it by his stomach.

[HalcyonSpirit]

Does anybody here practice Kendo? I've been at it for two years. I'm halfway between casual and serious at this point as I try to hammer out a college degree.

Bringing this up from a few pages back, but I didn't see it until now.

I practice Kendo. I've been at it for about a year and a half, though I had to take most of last semester off due to lack of time. It also doesn't help that, while I like the training I have gotten, it hasn't been as rigorous as a real dojo's training. There aren't any real dojos in my immediate area, so I have to rely on Virginia Tech's Kendo club. It's nice (and a lot cheaper than the average dojo), but it could be a lot better.