Rozovian

It has to do with improving the wip board for sure, but I recall seeing thread title changes before that thread (or its short-lived predecessor) was posted, on mithius' project thread. btw, the new thread needs your feedback.

Not the first time that's been asked. Here's a page about the torrents, and a quote from there:

My english music terminology isn't advanced enough for me to just say yes or no to what you said, but let's put it like this: within a section of the remix, there's repetition. Each section has its own sound, and while the sound is good, and the style of the sections vary, those individual sections are repetitive. The worst offender is the 0:50-1:18, which would be fine if it'd be half as long. The length, however, isn't the problem, the repetitive nature of the section is. The worst offenders are that one and 2:15-2:43. Fixing those two would probably solve my problem with the repetition. Add more melodic backing in there, change the chord it's built on, something like that would be the best solution, imo. Adding the rhythm part from the 2:15 section into the latter parts of the 0:50 section (around 1:05) could work, as it's also introducing that instrument for later use. Doesn't have to be the same melody or rhythm, just something to say that you're not just looping for length, you've varying the loop and introducing a later element. The intro is a great idea, like I said before, it's just quiet for a little too long. It takes a second and a half before I hear anything, and it takes almost until 3 seconds in befroe I identify the sound effect as a train. You could probably cut out the two first seconds and make it fade in much faster. Or, you could just make it fade in faster, just... sooner. Footsteps might work as an outro, if you don't have any ideas for one yet.

Gonna listen later. Seriously man, if you've done this much without a DAW - GET ONE! After learning the basics of the app, you'll improve the track monumentally.

(this post has been copied to post #2) I have two questions, the first especially for those fairly new to the wip board: #1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab...? #2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

Mixing needs work, the leads are just painful in their higher range, some frequencies get way too loud. You could also work with spacing, stereo placement, perception of distance, stuff like that, just to get them out of my head and into a room, space, something. SInce you've got both a high-range flute and high-range bells, there's a lot of high frequencies that you could mask with reverb. You could dampen their volume too, or EQ down their high range a few dB. Around 3 mins it gets a bit cluttered and the high range is just one garbled mess of frequencies, long/loud release tails get part of the blame. You might need to get rid of some instruments there, but don't make a ny drastic cuts until you've processed stuff first so you see how they sound then. And take a backup, this version is good enough to use as a base for various edits, but those edits can screw up some settings and writing. Backup=good idea. The panning thing in the bg should balanced by something in each ear, as the whole remix seems to be wobbling off-balance. Hihats in one ear, shaker in the other, or use a stereo delay effect to send the echo to one ear while keeping the hihat/shaker in the other. "drumz haev noes enurgy!" In this case, they don't need that much energy, they're rhythm, not drive.Unless you want them to have drive, which might solve your clutter issue around 3:00. Still, for most of the track, they don't need it imo. Regardless, you need to give the drums more stereo spread, so pan and mirror the shaker/hat. Arrangement is pretty. I think this track is well suited (and well adapted) to a slower pace. It sounds very complete in many ways. Source in undoubtedly there, as is interpretation, so you're most likely in the green there. Reminds me I have a wip of this somewhere on my hard drive. Should do that one at some point. Yeah, the creative bits here might get this a YES, at least get it close. Production is still a bit painful in the high range, and there are balance issues to deal with. Overall, good.

Bandwidth exceeded. Use another host.

Source link still doesn't work. The site seems to block direct links. Here's a link to the game's page on gh, "16 - Disused Military Depot" is the right file. Before relistening to the remix, I can spot a few similarities, so I think you're in the green as far as source is concerned. Upon relistening, source is there. The repetition isn't as much a throughout thing, or a "repeat loop for twice as long" thing. There's changes in those sections, but they're still repetitive, so it's be nice with a lead (even a soft one) on top. You can use some backing from further on in the track as a basis for it, just so those bits don't get too repetitive. Automating filters could get you some variation without having to do anything about the arrangement. I also got a bit bothered by the sound effect of people running, close to the end. The scream could work if it's processed to no longer sound like a scream, ring modulation or granulization or some other weird tweak might do that. ...And you might want to fix the silence at the very beginning of the track, btw. Other than that, it's not far from great, and I think this'll get a YES when it's done. After the tweaks and a real ending and all that.

The guitar being doubled isn't half as important as being recorded twice. And then panned as wide as possible. Dunno what you did, and you'd be better off getting guitar feedback from people more used to listening and evaluating guitars, but it didn't sound as wide as I recall other ppl's guitar mixes do. If you know this already, never mind, but I'll say it just in case, for you or anyone who needs to know. Recording a guitar part twice and hard-panning the two recording opposite each other creates this effect of it being jsut one guitar, but that one guitar being really phat. It enhances the stereo soundscape of the track and keeps the center from being cluttered. When using delay, be subtle. You want jsut enough to make it stand out, not so much that it interferes with the rhythm and/or clutters the track. For more detailed guitar feedback, get on #ocrwip and hope sixto or tensei-san or one of the other guitar ppl will critique the track.

Yeah, the bell works - conceptually. Good luck getting it all together, gonna be interesting to hear an update.

"for the lazy people" - you were expecting me? Can't, btw, download source, and I sadly don't remember the source tune from playing the game. The train sound effect works well in the intro. 0:50-1:18 section felt too empty, you could toss in some more backing there, references to the source melody and versions of it, stuff like that. The train... horn, thing, as a lead is awesome. It could use some more weight behind it, but conceptually, it's awesome, and it does work at its current stage fairly well. The slow attack is something of a problem at times, you might want to fix that. Scream at 3:25... not as classy as the rest of the track. Fortunately, it wasn't very clear. Lowercase X-es, because it works as it is. All except the ending, which obviously isn't the final ending. ARRANGEMENT / INTERPRETATION can't find source host PRODUCTION PERFORMANCE (live recorded audio/MIDI parts) no crits STRUCTURE [ ] Lacks coherence overall (no "flow") [x] Not enough changes in sounds (eg. static texture, not dynamic enough) [ ] Pace too plodding [x] Too repetitive [ ] Too short [x] Abrupt ending OTHER [X] Good stuff

Makes for a nice intro, yeah. Keep 'em there, but once the drums, bass, the stuff gets going, they clutter up the sound and kill some of that jazz feel.

Only got a problem with the crashes and rides. They're too soft and don't have enough hi-range stuff to compete with the hihats, so when the crash is struck, it sounds like the track loses energy rather than gains some. Kick might use a little bit of a mid/high-range boost to cut through a little more. Not much. Guitars could still use some more stereo width. Some delays can give you a stereo effect, some reverbs do that too. See if you have any of those. The thing that bothers me about this is the lack of stereo width. Spread the sound of the guitars more using effects, see what you can do about that. Nothing stood out as bad, and the other crits I had don't seem to apply much anymore. It all sounds good to me. Great track.

You got run over by a myriad of other wips. Btw, the filesize can make it a bit daunting to download - 12 megs!? 320 kbps is twice as much as it needs to be. Besides, you can't submit stuff over 6 megs to OCR anyway. The flute in the 1:10 section could use some longer notes, just to make it more varied. First snare hit could be softer. In fact, the drums could all be soft before really getting started. Transition to 2:28 was a little weird, you might want to dampen the contrast between the key signatures by finding a chord they have in common, or finding a good intermediate chord to base some backing on. 3:28, weird drum drum writing. After that, there's some clashing going on in the background (I assume the foreground clashes are intentional). At 4:03, and even more so at 4:10, you've got some really weird key structures that I recommend you take a look at. it's one thing to write stuff like that so it suits the atmosphere, it's another to write it so that it annoys people or sounds bad to them. 5:07 section feels too different. I recommend bridging it with the 1:10 flute melody put into the piano somehow to tie it together. Also, if that's how you're gonna end it, you better introduce that soundscape earlier or have it run longer. Overall, the progression suffers the medley-itis in some of the harsher transitions. It's pretty long as it is, so I suggest working on making it more cohesive in terms of themes and sound. The mood changes a bit too often, and most themes are only represented in one mood. See if you can make this sound a bit more unified. I've only got some crits about the writing. Production is about as good as I can get it, tho as you can see, I'm not posted on OCR yet.

Long delays is hardly gonna make this sound authentic, use reverb instead. That's the only production crit I can come with atm. I'll wait until the wip is longer before commenting on progression and stuff, it's hard to judge something this short. As for the source, I think it's in the green. I'm hearing both source an interpretation. It's promising.

No source link, no source comment. Guitar tip: record everything twice, hard pan each recording opposite their twin. You'll get a lot of stereo width that way. Guitars could be louder. Work with different compressors, try side-chaining, see what you can do to get more energy into it. The writing and musical side of things is ok, imo, tho they could always be better. The mixing needs work. New drum samples and/or better drum production would be nice. I'm gonna mention this wip on #ocrwip, there's some guitar remixers around. You might find it useful.

song#1 A sliced version of an annoyingly pitched up song? Hard to give you any helpful advice without knowing what you've changed. I found it annoying. Pitched up voice, a lot of slicing at annoying places, repetitive, it's just... Annoying. Sorry it's not very positive. Try your hands at a rearrangement, and I'll have so much more help to provide.

No link to source, no comment on source. But do compare some recently posted remixes to their sources, you'll find that the structure is different, some melodies changed, etc. I think it's a production problem rather than a resource problem. Pretty much any synth bundled with any software nowadays can output decent sounds, and any included reverb, EQ, compression, and other core effects can make the sound fit in better. If you don't know how to work them, refer to zircon's guide, or use google. The guitar notes also clash with the rest of the track. That's the worst offender in this mix. The key, the tone, and the repetition of it make it just ill fitting. You could tweak it, but I suggest removing it and starting with a blank track and another instrument. I'm no fan of voice clips or speech in a track, but these don't sound so bad. In fact, the recording sounds clean. They are, imo, the best sounds in the track. Wonder if you made them or jsut got them from somewhere. IThey sound complete enough to stand on their own. Perhaps you should solo the other tracks, tweak them 'til they all sound good on their own, and then bring them all together. Hard to judge the progression from a half-minute clip, so no comment on that either. But good luck with the track.

Gave the upper paragraph too much emphasis. Was gonna emphasize the latter one, suggestions, discussion, improvements etc. tho, you never know if someone gets an epiphany about something (which is why I bothered to). Nor did I ever suggest a rule about it. DS was the one to say the word "rule", and it was in jest. I think.

Is this what you think I'm saying: "The problem: not enough feedback. The solution: let's list pros and cons of hardly relevant things that we'll discuss somewhere." It's not. I'm saying "how can I help?". I'm saying "let's talk about the wip forum _on_ the wip forum". Every time I've had a suggestion for improving it, I've been met with "you're overthinking it, take a step back". To me, that's starting to read as "we don't want your ideas, just your post count". Or maybe "we don't _your_ involvement in the wip boards". I doubt that's actually helping the wip board. Talking about wip-related stuff might not instantly turn the wip board buzzing of activity, but it could provide some resources for the wip posters and reviewers. In turn, that could get people more interested in commenting on wips. I doubt people are gonna be interested in posting in a forum that they can't talk about, suggest improvements for, etc.

It's been suggested, but J's don't have the time to post here. Reviewing reviewers is a good thing, DrumUltimA asked for zircon's feedback on one of his review posts, and I followed his example. The J's, however, can't take initiative for it. The "good wip reviewer" status thing also requires someone that knows the standards very well. Someone's gotta read the feedback, listen to the remixes, sources, and so on... without someone to do that, it's not gonna happen. It's one of those often suggested ideas, and it's a good one. Sadly, it takes manpower.

Why are you afraid of discussion, DS? For someone on the staff, you seem strangely hostile to any community initiative (even one greenlit by a member of the staff) to discuss and improve the wip boards. Or is it something personal? The purpose of discussion is to bring out all concievable pros and cons with the topic Discussing the pros and cons of posting multiple version for the remixer to read and consider before posting a wip (in one or several versions)... why do you think that's a bad thing? edit: also, perhaps this should be discussed in the wip board questions and discussion thread?

Questions for everyone on the wip board: #1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...? #2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else? #3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...? #4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality? #5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board? -- FAQ (more like Good Questions) How do I link to source, where can I find source music, and what about the legal issues with it? I'd be good to have an official answer from a judge, which I'll add once it's provided. -- Diverse problems: - there are not enough replies. - the quality of the replies vary. - it isn't always clear if a post is a release or a wip, or whether the wip is for ocr or not. - sometimes, the source isn't linked or even specified. - the standards bar isn't clear (e.g. "how conservative is too conservative?"). - reviewers might not notice when a wip has been updated. - no incentive to review. - remixers might not notice when their wip has received feedback. Diverse solutions: Certified WIP Reviewer - requires a wip reviewer reviewer with nearjudge qualifications - requires people with time - could make posters disregard posts by non-certified reviewers - could dissuade non-certified listeners from reviewing + would let everyone know if the reviewing provides a good critique + an incentive for reviewing Judge or Judges Posting in wips - judges do not necessarily have the time (submissions queue) - might yield a different verdict than the final judging - could dissuade non-judges from reviewing + quality of reviews would increase to around the submission standard level Incorporating "Was this review helpful?" into the wip board - would need to be coded + would let reviewers know when their reviews are useful + could be incorporated into rpg system Incorporating the checklist into the reply page - would need to be coded - is either obtrusive on reply page or folded and hard to notice - might dissuade reviewers from commenting + would give reviewers quick access to the checklist Filtering out poor feedback - requires an active moderator - might dissuade people from posting in fear of wasting their time + would improve quality of feedback Split WIPs and Releases - might attract most traffic to releases, not to wips + would lessen confusion between the two RPG system with points for wip reviews - would need to be coded - quantity over quality - could make posters disregard posts by lower-rank reviewers + might incorporate "Was this review helpful?" or "Thanks" + an incentive for reviewing WIP awareness month + would attract people to wip board Forum member wip blog - would need to be coded + could display recent wips in sig or post header Adding wip links to game pages - would need to be coded + would increase visibility of wips Letting the OP flag his thread as having been updated - would need to be coded - could turn the wip board into a step-by-step tutoring forum + would let reviewers know if they've commented on the most recent update Incorporating a "Thanks" system into the wip board - would need to be coded - could favor positive feedback over constructive criticism + would let reviewers know when their reviews are appreciated + could be incorporated into rpg system A glossary and FAQ about remixing - what you need, what's what, and what newbs sometimes do wrong - wouldn't help the WIP boards directly - could make people use language they've only learned in the glossary - could increase newb activity on the wip board and overwhelm the reviewers + would make remixing more available to people, possibly increasing activity on the WIP board + would allow people to look up terms they're unfamiliar with or unsure of (adsr, compression, counterpoint, dissonance) + would give reviewers without significant remixing skills an insight into the process, thus improving their critique A group of non-judges able to give a fair prediction for the J's vote - no guarrantee they're right - would need to be moderated - requires people with time + would provide remixers with feedback on their finished version + group membership might serve as an incentive for good feedback Present wips in a more trafficked part of the site, on hourly rotation - would need to be coded/managed + would attract people to the wip threads Reviewing quota to be filled before posting own wips - might dissuade users from using ocr's wip board - no quality control for wip reviews +would increase wip feedback -- Keep suggesting, ppl. Not sure I got everything that has been mentioned, and I don't think everything has been mentioned yet. Thanks to everyone who've suggested something (in this thread or others) or pointed out a problem with the wip board. -end of post-

The reasons it might be a bad thing is because it might dissuade people from commenting more than "version A is better", if they'll comment at all. This is mentioned in the linked thread. People who comment on wips on the board, unlike yourself, might have their own preferences, thus the need for them for a thread to voice their views on it and other wip-related matters. Also, the reason I posted this on the wip board is because this is wip-related. The wip board frequencters don't always come here to check this thread. They do come to the wip board. They're not gonna dig up this thread when they have a question will likely go unasked, the idea unmentioned. Furthermore, the reason I didn't suggest moving this thread to the wip board is because if I have the first post, I can edit it to contain summaries and links to discussions that we've had in the thread. This way, no newbs are ever gonna find this thread, and nobody's gonna sum up discussions and post them where they're easily available. wtg overzealous mod. edit: link to the thread LT had to make to keep mods from abducting it.

Grr, everybody, there is now a thread for further discussion about multiple versions, and any other wip board items. Here.