Nabeel Ansari

Actually, it is. You're the one who initiated this discussion by responding to Derrit's statement of "as if putting out games on pc isn't good enough. which is a silly notion." Don't yell at me for talking about computers vs. Ouya when you were doing it before I did. Again, don't yell at me for talking about computers vs. Ouya when you were doing it before I did. He's not screwed without Ouya. He can make his game for PC and map it to a controller. ^ A statement which you respond to with "would you sell computer games that only work on controllers?", which I responded to with examples of real games on the computer that only "work" on controllers. Your response? "Fuck this thread, you guys are know it alls"

You can't say "this is my point", then say "you're missing my point" after I say exactly why your point (word for word, might I add) is wrong. If you think it's right, defend it. Don't ignore an obvious argument to what you think. All you seem to be doing is refusing to respond to anything anyone brings up and saying "you're missing my point". I'm not missing your point; I said it was wrong, you didn't defend it, so I concluded it was wrong.

http://www.amazon.com/Street-Fighter-IV-Pc/dp/B001CH2HBK/ref=sr_1_1_title_2?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1346976444&sr=1-1&keywords=street+fighter+4 http://www.amazon.com/Dirt-3-PC-DVD-Pc/dp/0700099867/ref=sr_1_3_title_0?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1346976457&sr=1-3&keywords=dirt+3 Using examples cited in the thread, of course.

Again, are you dense? Your "console advantages" were shot down. Go back and read. If I have to spell it out, there is no advantage to consoles other than the price point. The controls are not an advantage, the hardware is not an advantage (both of which you believe are, and you're wrong). And no, he's not "screwed" without Ouya. He can develop his game on a computer just fine and map it to a controller (or create a menu where you can map your own). You don't seem to be getting the fact that controls are not exclusive to consoles.

Smash Bros. wasn't made on the PC. You're not listening at all. Find me a PC Game that is awkward to play on a keyboard and does not have controller support. You will find none, because no one in their right mind would release a game that is impossible to play. You keep saying this stuff about PC games needing to have keyboard as a main input, with controllers "maybe" as a side thought. I am saying you are wrong, because any game that is awkward on a keyboard will have controller support. Every named example (Super Meat Boy, Fighting games, Racing games) has controller support. Are you dense? A console is a computer with a barebones operating system and a special controller. Nothing more.

Also, there's no such thing as making a graphically high end game for little cost, so the hardware point (on having to program for different hardware from back before by DaMonz) is pretty moot. Any indie games without decent funding will at best have nice hand-drawn or sprite visuals, which are not that taxing on a system. Programming for specific hardware is not really an issue at all; like I said, DirectX makes that problem completely vanish.

Played the entirety of Super Meat Boy on a keyboard. But wait, name one example of these games that don't have controller support.

Name one example of a game that doesn't work on keyboard and mouse that does on a controller.

They can, and they do. Have you ever played Super Meat Boy? It tells you to play with an Xbox Controller before the title screen comes up. The hardware specs point is kinda bogus. You don't have to develop for any specific hardware; we solved this problem many years ago with things like DirectX and OpenGL. http://www.unrealengine.com/

Popularity of a system doesn't make it better.

FL Studio is what DarkeSword and djpretzel (or at least I think he used to) uses, it's good for every kind of music but does electronic music especially well. It has a unique modular format for everything, so all the organization is DIY. People call it a kiddie DAW because it's too hard for them to understand. Reason is a closed solution (no VST's), and it's very good at creating electronic music. It has a very unique system where all the instruments and effects are styled in a rack format and you can wire things together as you can in real life. People dislike that Reason has no VST support, but the sounds it has in itself aren't bad at all. REAPER is a great baseline DAW that can do everything adequately. It's very cheap too. Can record, edit, support instruments and effects. If you don't wanna invest in a more specialized system, this is more general and universal. Cubase is one of the higher ups. It has a traditional track system and lots of people like its piano roll (better piano roll makes editing MIDI data easier). If you really know not much about DAW software, things like Pro Tools and Cubase are what people think of when they hear the word. It's a little more advanced than REAPER. bLiNd uses this for his orchestral music. Ableton Live is really good at creating electronic music. It has a performance pattern system where you write your music in even bar sections called clips. They can be 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. measures long and to lay down your track arrangement you can hit play and trigger the clips, and it records all of the data played to its arrangement window where you can tweak things like automation. You can also write music the more traditional way, by hitting play and then recording your instruments by playing the MIDI keyboard or recording audio from a guitar, mic or something like that. bLiNd uses this for his electronic music. I've tried Studio One briefly, and honestly there's not a heavy difference from other traditional DAWs. Still, it's a new modern system created from the ground up and it's good for lots of different music types. It's good at recording and it has its own mastering solution built in.

I took a music production class two years ago. Tried to write a song in Garageband. Got ok results. Tried to write a song in Pro Tools. Didn't work. Pro Tools is a fancy, multi-track high quality version of Audacity. Audio editing is all it's good for, really, but you can't write songs in it without recording every single thing. The MIDI editing is atrocious.

Why? You should at least explain.

Review, huh? Brad didn't build my computer, but he mailed me a piece of his brain to help me build one. ...ok, but really, he walked me through choosing parts and gave some build advice and my computer hasn't really had any problem at all. It's been running great since May 2011 because of this guy. To anyone on the fence reading this: you can trust him, he knows his stuff.

No, because a decent grasp of the english language doesn't support your interpretation at all. You said I assume Mojang doesn't think they have enough people, I want you to go back and find proof that I said that at all. What the fuck are you talking about? Ouya hasn't sold anything. We just had this problem with the OCR Kickstarter where people were equating investments to sales ("Why are the CD's $50?!") You need to look up the definition of "sell", dude. I don't understand what order you read my sentences in. I'm talking about Steam marketing its product/service. Not its hardware. That doesn't have to be stated, it's common sense. Would it make better sense if I stated the obvious: marketing costs money? Do you seriously think the publicity caused by a kickstarter has gotten enough attention for Ouya to say "we don't really need to market this EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT IT NOW"? There are far more things you can program than video games. Far more. You can't do "amazing things" on Ouya. You can make a game. That's it. You'd have to be dense if you seriously think that Ouya has as much potential in the world wide community of coders as something like Raspberry Pi. Ridiculously dense. Seriously dude, I'm fine with you thinking Ouya has a shot with devs, but please stop thinking that Raspberry Pi's success can predict anything about Ouya. They're completely different things. You don't get my points? I don't get why you're allowed to cite console manufacturer success while crying "guys they're just an indie console!" when someone like Newt brings up a point about how ridiculously expensive console manufacturing can end up. It's ridiculously inconsistent. You're either a niche console that can't survive in the big console market or you're a big console competitor that can be prone to the same failures everyone else is. If I'm being too confusing, then let me give a tl;dr I take issue with the fact you think this will succeed based on nothing but ideals. "There's no reason devs wouldn't" "There's no risk" "They have everyone's support" "It's a great idea" "They met a Kickstarter goal" "They have deep pocketed friends according to me" "Everyone will buy the system" Success models used by companies with actual track record, resources, and connections? Also, no dev would ever make an Ouya port without testing it on the system itself. That would just be beyond stupid. They can do it for phones and tablets because they all work the same way. But the one system that has a controller you make a port for? You don't even test it? Sure, "free money" if you don't count the cost of testing.

No, that is your interpretation of what I said (which is wrong, considering you explicitly ignored the fact that I said "The latter is debatable"). And again, you are missing the point. Ouya needs sales to survive. If the only people who buy Ouya hardware units are devs, there won't be enough revenue from gamers to keep devs hooked on it. If the only people who buy it are gamers, there'll be no games to make money off of. You can't market something for both people. It is impossible, especially with the fact that Ouya is a start-up. You know why Steam can do it? There's no hardware involved. The only people who can buy/develop games on Ouya are the people who own the piece of metal itself. So you really haven't changed my mind. They need money, and there's nothing that says they have it yet. You can't run a successful business off of an idealistic mission statement. Billy should go to school and learn that $25 is less than $99.

If you actually decide to read the quote, Mojang's not putting Minecraft until they make a great product and enough people want their games. The latter is debatable, the former has just flat out not been done. They haven't made anything. Mojang did not say "If they reach their kickstarter goal we will put minecraft on there" *facepalm* You flat out did not read, again. I'm talking about a consumer standpoint. For simplicity, let's talk about some dude named Billy. Billy is a programmer. He wants to buy Raspberry Pi because it lets him do awesome things. Billy is a gamer. He sees Ouya, but is not sure he wants to buy one because not many great games are on it. Do you get what I am saying, now? The appeal of Ouya to consumers is highly dependent on developer support, where Rasberry Pi is not. Rasberry Pi IS for developers. They are the market demographic. Ouya's market demographic is gamers, not developers. That's why I am saying you can not compare them. Or are you suggesting more devs will buy Ouya than gamers themselves?

1. Rasberry Pi is an actual thing that got support when it was an actual thing. 2. The market for Rasberry Pi is far bigger than the market for Ouya. 3. Rasberry Pi is dirt cheap with no need for things like elegant design and fancy hardware. 4. The premise of Rasberry Pi is a small cheap Linux computer that you can run code on. The premise of Ouya is playing indie games. One requires the self, and another requires a big dev community. I'm fine if you somehow think a niche market demographic for a hardware system will survive, because I don't think it will but don't know for a fact (like I said, it is still unaddressed at this point), but don't use Rasberry Pi as a success story example that Ouya can follow. It can't; it doesn't appeal to nearly as many people. They're completely different things. You buy a Rasberry Pi to do stuff. You don't need a dev community to MAKE things for you to do on it. (and don't even bother suggesting that one of Ouya's "draws" is hacking the system itself. There's no reason to get a system with a Tegra 3 for a coding wankage) It's a good idea. I don't think it will last long on $9 million, and like I said many pages ago, I think you're grossly overestimating the amount of support for this. "Pretty much every dev" "No reason not to" etc. etc. Also, I can't believe I didn't post this before, but this pretty much quashes the "no reason not to port" reasoning: No reason not to, huh?THEN MOJANG Y U DO THIS For the reason I said before: Not to waste their time. Time is a thing that people do care about.

I simply think the notion that this is guaranteed to succeed based on speculated developer opinions (not actual ones) and the fact that "there's no reason it wouldn't succeed" is ridiculous.

*facepalm* You need to stop crying "SPECULATION!" when that's all you are doing. There's still the unaddressed point that the market demographic is ridiculously small, which can cause problems in terms of Ouya being able to sustain itself as a business.

Fixed, and read my sig plz A few dollars will only compell a dev with nothing better to do with his time. There's no guarantee that this "free money" actually amounts to anything substantial.

Crowbar, you're confusing "I have no reason not to" with "I have a reason to". Just because there's no reason not to put your game on Ouya doesn't mean you will. People don't work that systematically. All you've been saying in response to the concern of devs willing to put their games on Ouya is "Why wouldn't they?" You can't speculate the success of something based on the idea that there's no reason it wouldn't succeed, or that there's no reason anyone wouldn't support it. On the flipside, there ARE plenty of reasons it wouldn't succeed. I'm not going to list them because that's what Newt has been saying for the past thread.

You don't have to squint for a tablet. In fact, the games will probably look terrible on the big screen considering they're low resolution and they look like perfection on a tablet screen.

The market demographic is too small for Ouya to sustain itself. You can't say "But this is for indies!" and have magical money fall down from the sky as God's special funding for indie games/system. It's not "not clicking with anybody", it doesn't change anything. Perhaps he would listen to you if you actually decided to remain on-topic rather than make personal comments. You're basically saying to him "What you're saying is valid, but since I don't like you, I'm going to insult you to make it look like I'm still having an argument to make." He was talking about Ouya from a business standpoint because this is a thread about Ouya.

I skimmed your Zelda Title Screen video, and that was pretty awesome you had the whole gargantuan workflow set up. I don't have an expansive orchestral library yet (just some Kontakt default VSL stuff), so I don't have much orchestral FL experience. If/When I start doing things that demand higher quality work (that'll land me as Power User, hopefully some day) then I plan to use your vids as reference to inspire a template set up, since VGM composition is one of my career ambitions.