Castlevania Judgement for Wii

[Sindra]

Nothing I hate more than facing an impressive looking boss in a game and beating it quickly without taking much or any damage. Seems like that's the case with most games these days, including new Castlevania games. In fact, I've played all the Castlevania games since Rondo of Blood and not one of them had a boss that I had to fight more than two times to beat. The GBA/DS games espeically were pushovers... I wish they would make a new Castlevania game that retains some of the challenge of the classics.

Ahh, see, this is a common complaint in most of the Castlevania community. Seasoned vets of the series long for the days when boss fights took the better part of your sanity to take down. Certain boss fights were near impossible to beat unless you found the one small flaw in their attack patterns, or simply got lucky - case in point, Death from the first Castlevania. Dracula X Chronicles (Rondo's recent remake) even made the boss battles bumped up a notch with a new and rather difficult 3rd form of Dracula.

So why do all other Castleroids suffer from awesome boss designs, but lacking battles? Iga has been trying for years to make Castlevania games cater to non-fans of the series. Too many newbies have complained about recent Castlevanias being too difficult, and thus Iga tries to rope more people into the series by making it easier for the stupid little monkies.

He's trying to draw more non-fans in, whilst not really paying much attention to the hardcore fans of the series who're asking for multiple difficulty settings right off the bat, so the little whiner punks can have their easy boss fights and levels, while us longtime fans can skip the kid stuff and go into heavy-action Boss Thrashings.

[Evilhead]

I just don't see why all the boss battles in the new Castlevania games, especially the ones for the GBA/DS can't have harder boss battles. You can save right before the battle, so it's not like the old days where you have to go through at least a 3rd of the level again to get there, and it's not like if you had a really hard time you couldn't level up until it was a little easier for you. I like the exploratory and equipment aspects of the Castleroids but the boss battles always make me sad. It's not like a level up extra long anyway. I just fight the bosses as they become available and I always rape them. Though I guess with the extra modes these days you can play a more difficult game, but it's a little dissapointing that he's watering down the games for the masses.

[Darth GourryGN]

It's true that if Judgement does suck it's gonna be because it's a rush job. Or because it will come with a wiimote attachment that sucks out your soul.

But you can't argue with this logic:

In CV64 if you are using Carrie and you crouch under the stairs in the back room of the villa you can see up her dress. Poke holes in that, Master Sindra!

[Hector]

I think part of the problem with easier boss battles may be the increased maneuverability. When you had to decide which way you had to jump when you started to jump and had no way of correcting the jump, many things were much more difficult to dodge.

But, if you try most boss-battles at a lower level than is recommended, you regain a fair deal of that difficulty. For instance, I've been playing Richiter mode in Portrait of Ruin on hard with a level 25 level cap--and find Dracula ridiculously difficult. I have room for roughly three dodging mistakes, and it takes a while to get Dracula to his second form (even when I optimize for offense).

On the other hand, I can see where you are coming from with "Dawn of Sorrow". No hard mode for Julius mode makes me sad.

[Evilhead]

Well, increased maneuverability has a lot to do with it, as well as practically unmilited sub-weapon/spell usage. In the old game you might have 7 or 8 axes to throw then you were done. If you missed with those you were probably screwed. But with the newer ones you can just spam subweapons with little thought, and a lot of the spells auto-hit or are homing in some way. Makes things a lot easier!

Speaking of which, I wonder how much of the spell/subweapon system will be incorporated into the Wii game?

[Sindra]

But you can't argue with this logic:

In CV64 if you are using Carrie and you crouch under the stairs in the back room of the villa you can see up her dress. Poke holes in that, Master Sindra!

Well, if I was a lesbian, that might entice me.

And there are supposed to be SubWeapon usage in Judgement, from what I've heard. I can only assume they will be special attack moves for Belmonts-Only.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

You know what would really suck?

If it turns out that the game is pretty badass, and I don't have a Wii to play it on.

I'm actually thinking that with a few concepts, they could really make it awesome. Think of a hybrid between the 3D movement plain of Soul Calibur mixed with the craziness of Guilty Gear XX, and toss in sub-weapons, magic attacks, and whip-slinging.

Think about it. Maria Renard and Grant Danasty could be low- to mid-tier speedsters while Maria can double jump and Grant can CLIMB WALLS, Alucard could summon poison mist or transform into a werewolf(or Cornell could) for a limited time or something, and I can think of several whip techniques like blocking projectiles, grabbing arms or torsos and pulling your opponent down to the ground, or something to that effect. They could toss in Sonia and give her some kind of time stop or flame shot ability.

Hell, I dunno. I think it could be pretty awesome if they really work on it.

[JCvgluvr]

Your logic has promise but is ultimately flawed, young padawan.

I'm sorry, Sindra, but I can't help but point out that your logic equally suffers from flaws. Namely, unattributed assumptions. Let me show you:

The unfortunate demand he's listening to from fans is the demand for new games ASAP, instead of in-depth quality games spread out over the course of say 2 years or more.

Here,

Beyond terrible character designs IMO, Judgement will suffer from being overshadowed by Order of Ecclesia and from rush jobs to get a game out and make a quick buck off of the impatience of the fanbase.

here,

Even if two different teams are working on the games separately, how much time does that give Iga to give his full attention to either game?

and here. How can you be sure on any of those things? How do you know if he's quickly releasing games merely to meet the demands of rabid fans? I would guess that there are more than one factors affecting his rushed release dates. Are you sure he's rushing work on Judgement? He could have been working on it since the Wii's initial release, or even longer. And surely, you don't think Iga lacks the ability to multi-task, do you? I'm sure he's perfectly capable of making 2 great games, even if he has to split his attention. Now, the question is, is he going to make 2 great games, or even one? It's all up to him and his teams.

Again, this is just my attempt at playing Devil's Advocate, and it is not my desire to attack you.

[EdgeCrusher]

Ok seriously. Sindra is a member of the CV dungeon forum, and other sites, and been following these games for years. Its hard for me to say that there is someone out there more devoted to the series and a bigger fan, but its her. So yeah, she knows her stuff.

[The Coop]

I'll probably catch shit for this, but...

I honestly don't know why people hate Castlevania: Dracula X so much. The only downside to the game for me is the lack of recovery time when you get hit. Normally, there are about two or three seconds where you're invincible after an enemy hits you. This trait is gone, and it can result in being bounced back and forth between enemies... to death. That really shouldn't have been there. Outside of that, it's a good game. Nice graphics, well reproduced tunes, and an overall fun play through. It's not as good as other 2D games in the series, but it's a good game nonetheless.

And truth be told, I don't consider it to be a port. We all know that it borrows quite heavily from parts of 'Rondo'. The music, the rescue/story ideas, sprites... C:DX took a good chunk. However, the stages are either completely new, or they only take a basic trait from a stage in 'Rondo' (i.e. level 1 being a town on fire in both). And the bosses? Many of them are new. As such, I've always seen it as more of an alternate version of the story in 'Rondo'... like someone in Konami said "DO OVER!" and went to work. However, I can also see it as Konami being lazy in some ways, and simply building a new game around the same ideas used in a past entry (which they've done more than once).

[Sindra]

Oh goodie...the multi-quote tactic. My favorite.

How can I be sure of those things, you ask? Well, the first two I can't prove with cold hard evidence, other than the testimony of myself as a hardcore Castlevania fan whose been with the series for years, and has noticed distinct patterns. Crappy 3D games that don't differ much in mechanics and design, despite feedback. Only a year between games for the past few games. Lack of time between releases.

Honestly, YOU tell ME just how much a game producer can get done in the course of a year? As such, take that question, and ask it in compound with the inquiry as to how much devotion is being given to each game if "multitasking" is involved? Even if Iga has the *ability* to multitask, he lacks the ability to give each things he's juggling its proper due.....which is why if he is juggling multiple games at once, he really shouldn't. Other peoples opinions are their own, but games like Lament of Innocence, Curse of Darkness, and Portrait of Ruin...while all capable games...certainly LACKED in more than one area. Now you please tell me how you can not think that juggling too many games at once or overlapping game development could not be one of the causes those mentioned games did less than their potential.

When he does make two GREAT games when he's multitasking for them both, please let me know. I'm still waiting for them.

Oh, and I know he hasn't been working with the Wii until recently because after the release of Dawn of Sorrow, he said he didn't want to work with the Wii because he thought it was too gimmicky and didn't like the hardware.

*breathes*

And Coop, people rag on Dracula X because Rondo came out first, and did it better. You don't often downgrade from something that was done pretty damn good the first time around, and not stick your nose up at it. It had less levels, redid alot of stuff and some boss fights, and had different music. Essentially, it really was a poor-man's version of Rondo.

And I agree Dracula X Chronicles was cheap in it just took something someone else already did, and just spruced it up and called it a new game. Like I said, Konami could have just put Rondo itself onto a PSP disk with some English voice-overs, and people would have still bought it. We didn't really need a 2.5D makeover. It just happened that way. (although I did like some of the redone music)

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

For the record, I still think Castlevania Dracula X has the best version of "Bloodlines" ever made, I also thought the graphics were pretty good. If anything, the original Rondo of Blood had shit graphics compared to CVDX, although it IS true that the gameplay was neutered(for lack of a better term) for the SNES game and I still don't understand why they omitted most of the stuff that made RoB awesome, but meh.

It was cool when I played it back in '96 anyway.

[JCvgluvr]

Sindra, notice that I didn't outright deny any of your assumptions. I merely addressed them as such, and pointed out that you were taking them up a step further as, or close to, hard fact. Being a fan or not, you can not see behind the scenes and witness the development process taking place, or the hidden motives and thought processes taking place in Iga's mind. All I'm saying is, you don't know. Also, please take care to completely read thru what I type. It seems like you might have missed a few details.

[EdgeCrusher]

Sindra, notice that I didn't outright deny any of your assumptions. I merely addressed them as such, and pointed out that you were taking them up a step further as, or close to, hard fact. Being a fan or not, you can not see behind the scenes and witness the development process taking place, or the hidden motives and thought processes taking place in Iga's mind. All I'm saying is, you don't know. Also, please take care to completely read thru what I type. It seems like you might have missed a few details.

After reading your profile and seeing that you work at gamestop, I can say that its pretty obvious that you do to me now. You have a very overwhelming "have to be right" attitude. You do realize that in your post saying that she doesn't know what goes on and such behind the scenes that you don't either, right? She is spot on when she said that he did not like working with the wii, so anything he did was not at the initial start up of the project, and if you research the details on just about any interview or on the CV dungeon you can find out and show what she has said. So please don't try to come in and be a prick.

[Hector]

About the whole "multitasking" thing, how much multitasking is really necessary? If only the creative lead is multi-tasking, it is not all that bad. It's whether or not the rest of the team is multi-tasking that really matters. And how much creative influence does he need to exert? The game can't have much of a story and the characters are more-or-less already developed. So the creative lead has much less of a role than normal.

What worries me is their figuring out how to make the characters actually fight. It may sound cool to grab someone's arm with a whip, but unless its a SC style throw you're going to have to think a lot about how it effects the other character's movement.

Multi-tasking is probably the one thing I'm not worried about.

[Sindra]

Also, please take care to completely read thru what I type. It seems like you might have missed a few details.

I skipped the stuff I saw as you blowing it out your ass.

You're right, I don't know 100% what's going on, or the reasons behind it all. All I know is what I have seen, read, heard, and researched for the past few years of Iga's career with the Castlevania team. I loved Aria of Sorrow, but Lament of Innocence suffered because of his multitasking. Dawn of Sorrow was great, but Curse of Darkness suffered as well. Given the previous evidence and pattern that's been all but proven, releasing two games in the same year will bode moderately for the first game, but lousy for the second.

Being a fan and keeping up to date with things keeps me privy to information other more casual fans might not notice, such as yourself. If you wanna argue something, that's fine by me. A battle of opinions is great. However, don't come in here and start telling me that I'm uninformed and don't know what I'm talking about, please.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

What worries me is their figuring out how to make the characters actually fight. It may sound cool to grab someone's arm with a whip, but unless its a SC style throw you're going to have to think a lot about how it effects the other character's movement.

Now we're getting constructive here.

You also just solved your own problem: A throw command ala SC-style. But here's an another idea: let's say there was an actual button or button combo that was assigned to be the throw command. Ok so you press the command, right? depending on where the characters stood in relation to the arena or the opponent, thrusting, pulling back, or twisting the Wiimote could activate one of several possible throws. What if while playing as Alucard, you could thrust the Wiimote forward several times to activate a sword flurry, then finish it off with a slash, or block and even parry an attack by holding the Wiimote in a defensive stance.

That would be the hardest command list to understand though...

[The Coop]

And Coop, people rag on Dracula X because Rondo came out first, and did it better. You don't often downgrade from something that was done pretty damn good the first time around, and not stick your nose up at it. It had less levels, redid alot of stuff and some boss fights, and had different music. Essentially, it really was a poor-man's version of Rondo.

"Downgrade" really only applies if you consider it a port, though. The fewer stages and such is indeed a step down in that light. But even so, the SNES graphics are very good (some would argue better than the PCE game in some respects), and the soundtrack contains much of the music from 'Rondo' (rather faithful sounding thanks to the work done with the SNES sound chip, as I'm sure you know). On its own however, it's a fun entry in the old NES Castlevania style gameplay-wise. It's a step back in terms of options from Super Castlevania IV (controllable whip, etc.), but it's a good game nonetheless (IMO of course).

You know, I don't recall reading that Castlevania: Dracula X was going to be a full-on port of the PCE game. I may very well be wrong (and it wouldn't surprise me if I was, since I didn't read all of the game magazines out there at the time), but wasn't it fans/magazines that labeled C:DX as a Rondo port after they saw some screenshots and played it, and not Konami themselves?

Edit: Added a thing or two.

Edit2: Cleaned up my thoughts. They were a bit scattered.

[Hector]

My point was actually that I don't want a SC style throw, I've seen that before. What I want is the character to keep kicking during the throw. I actually see two ways of doing this:

One is that the two characters continue fighting, but one of them has a new set of attacks while the other has a limited set of attacks. This requires that the combat system be built from the ground up to take account of each limb, so that a character still has options while they're grappled.

The other is to do something similar to RE4: have it enter something like a SC throw, but have a series of opportunities for one person to tighten the grapple, and the other person to reverse or escape from the grapple.

The problem with the former solution is how severely difficult it would be. The game would have to have a very dedicated staff to come up with a control scheme that allows each limb to act more-or-less independently of the others (especially when certain attacks would rely on two or more limbs).

The problem with the latter is that the fighter dramatically changes when the grapple starts. The solution to this would be to make it slightly formulaic (think No More Heroes with waggle-controls for defense as well).

I've been thinking about this sort of stuff for some time, but not necessarily for a Castlevania game.

[JCvgluvr]

After reading your profile and seeing that you work at gamestop, I can say that its pretty obvious that you do to me now. You have a very overwhelming "have to be right" attitude. You do realize that in your post saying that she doesn't know what goes on and such behind the scenes that you don't either, right? She is spot on when she said that he did not like working with the wii, so anything he did was not at the initial start up of the project, and if you research the details on just about any interview or on the CV dungeon you can find out and show what she has said. So please don't try to come in and be a prick.

What did I just say about making baseless assumptions?

I worked at Gamestop for a mere 2 months before they no longer needed seasonal help. Since when did the establishment that provides me an occupation define my entire personality? That's quite absurd!

I know she doesn't know what's going on for certain. I also know that I myself don't have access to that information either. She could be 100% correct. So could I. Neither of us could be right. I'm just saying we don't know either way, so don't act like a know-it-all who does! Holy fricken' crap!

Did everyone just gloss over the part where I said I wasn't directly attacking anyone, but playing the Devil's Advocate? Are we that sensitive to a little criticism?

Sindra, I read every fricken' word you typed, show me some fricken' courtesy. I despise it when I'm polite and objective with someone, and they throw it in my face like a monkey flinging fecal matter! Being a hardcore Castlevania fan doesn't give you top-secret information that no one else has access to. It doesn't make your opinion better than anyone else's, and you shouldn't give your thoughts about the series a factual quality. When you work in one of Iga's teams, you can go ahead and do that. Until then, work on the pessimism and big-headed attitude, will ya?

*Phew. Whatever, no hard feelings, right?

[Schwaltzvald]

So yeah some nice flames...

Sorry to say, I've arrived to the conclusion that all gamestop employees tend to be douchebags, especially that one time I requested a particular title and instead being given an assholish tirade about how another title is better over the other. madden shoveling douchebags... No matter how nice or good a person they are, they give that aural feeling of douchebagginess at that shit hole of a shop...

That said...

Where exactly will this thread continue... Any new info on the Castlevania Wii game? Any new developements on the upcoming title for the next DS installment..?

[Sindra]

The only thing for certain Schwaltz is that both games will be released in the fall. This could mean September, but probably closer to Christmas if the past is any indication.

[Raziellink]

I don't see where the Dracula X hate is coming from. I like the game. I prefer Castlevania 4 everyday, but it's still a great game. Rondo of Blood might be better, but if you haven't got a choice, Vampire's Kiss is still a good replacement.

[Darth GourryGN]

I just hope there's a mad shitload of characters and unlockables in the game. And SoulCalibur style single player stuff.

[The Coop]

Sorry to say, I've arrived to the conclusion that all gamestop employees tend to be douchebags, especially that one time I requested a particular title and instead being given an assholish tirade about how another title is better over the other. madden shoveling douchebags... No matter how nice or good a person they are, they give that aural feeling of douchebagginess at that shit hole of a shop...

I think part of it comes from the rules and regulations that are handed to the employees. I have friends who work at both EB and Gamestop, and some of the shit they have to shovel into customer's faces is ridiculous. Quotas, games that are to be pushed, tag lines they have to say when answering the phone, and of course, all that shit about their discount card (among other things). Sure, some people who work there are just a hemorrhoid on the ass end of life, but all those "requirements" are enough to make even the cool people seem like a turd at times.

I personally don't shop there much anymore. Not letting me preorder a game that's $19.99 or less really bugged me at first, then it reached "pissing me off" levels when SNK started putting out their compilations. And each time they've gotten rid of a system's games, I've had fewer reasons to go there. When they ditched used PC and Genesis games, that was a big reason for my fewer trips. Getting rid of magazines that compete with Game Informer was another big reason. I figure the GB/GBC and XBox games are the next to go, and then I'll have basically no cause for going to those chains anymore.

Anyway, we now return you to our regularly scheduled Castlevania thread.