OCR01871 - *YES* Valkyrie Profile 'The Shining Blue Armor Descends' *RESUB*

[Liontamer]

Original Decision: http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13632

ReMixer name: CHIPP Damage, Fray

Real name: Jahan Zoltan Honma, Nathan Monteleone

Email address: chaahan@hotmail.com

User id: 16036

Game(s) arranged: Valkyrie Profile

Song(s) arranged: Behave Irrationally (primary), Turn Over a New Leaf (secondary)

Additional information about game: Released in August, 2000 in America. Developed by Tri-Ace and published by Enix. Music composed by Motoi Sakuraba (My FAVORITE!). Known for crazy progressive rock music-filled dungeons, a crazy battle system and more death than this remix.

Link to the original soundtrack: It's #224 and #113 on this page

Hello djp and company. CHIPP Damage here. I hope you're ready for a resubmission of my remix of the most important song from the best Norse Mythology -based RPG (Irrational Behavior from Valkyrie Profile), done in the only Norse Mythology-based modern genre of music (Viking Metal), produced by a guy whose name is pronounced just like that of a Norse God (Fray), and arranged by a guy whose got nothing Norwegian to his name except for perhaps some viking-esque snowflakes in his beard (Me). This plate of sweets has all the death-voiced gingerbread men, Weeping Lily pollen-filled brownies, and RAGNAROKY ROAD ice cream that the previous one had, except this time it's produced twice as well. Fray got a new oven and has been cooking this thing for. . . like ever! And I REALLY appreciate him for it. He tried his best to selflessly satisfy the helpful comments of the judges (Thanks for those, by the way) while simultaneously giving me the viking-esque sound that I was longing for. We're both really happy with the results and we hope you are too.

Just for fun, I'd like to give you the play-by-play of just the arrangement myself this time. I hope I can get feedback from Liontamer in that area (nudge).

Stars off with a 4/4 adaption of the main melody of the source being played very fast.

:06 There a solo and a quick heavy riff which are original.

:15 Heavy chords and lyrics. I lowered the key from the original but it's a i vi progression like the main melody of the source.

:26 Some heavy chords that are a 4/4 adaption of the middle voice in the music box intro of the source tune.

It sounds like a vibraphone to me, but I'm not sure.

:38 And now the main melody comes out a 4th down from the original's key plus a harmonizing guitar below it.

When the lyrics come in, the strings jump up that 4th.

1:20 It's been so long since I recorded this that I can't remember how I chose the next three chords but it's D C and B with a A on top of each.

1:41 YES! The main melody on the bottom and a harmonizing guitar on top of it.

2:03 original heavy chords with lyrics.

2:13 Uses the same harmony I used for the main melody section at :26 but with lots of rhythmical differences this time around.

2:35 A riff that's inspired by the very beginning of Turn Over a New Leaf.

2:55 It's the "Turn Over a New Leaf Solo Section!" Using the melody and it's harmony from the original but with the harmony one octave up, putting it on top.

3:09 still roughly verbatim New Leaf solos until 3:22 where I changed the part that would come there in the original into a call and response part and changed the bass notes

3:37 Back to Behave Irrationally. this part of the solo is based on the music box intro of the source. The chord progression has been changed though.

3:55 Back the main melody. Only difference this time is that there aren't any lyrics now.

The final riff is a i vi progression based on the main melody and the final solo is original.

JUST in case you're interested. I did get the idea for a remix like this from another song. It's also a song about Ragnarok by the band Amon Amarth. I really liked their idea of telling a really intense high-paced story all throughout the first half and then having a long solo section in the middle followed by a slow doomy riff that signifies that Surtur has just burned all that was left of the World Tree. It's called Burning Creation.

Link yo: http://chipp_damage.sitesled.com/04%20Burning%20Creation.wma

Sincerely,

Jahan

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What happened to that Sixto mastered version?

http://tzone.org/~llin/psf/packs2/ValkyrieProfile_psf.rar - 224 "Behave Irrationally" & 113 "Turn Over a New Leaf"

The arrangement was solid, IMO; sorry for not mentioning it last time. It was obviously using the sources enough, but the breakdown was cool to follow.

The drums were way too skimpy from 3:06-3:19, except for that little break in between. 3:55-4:22 was extremely drawn out and meandering; you couldn't even make out the source melody, it was so buried. If you can't change it to something that works, shorten it drastically or get rid of it. The "booms" from 4:40-5:18 seemed to just bleed over the soundscape; you need to carve out some separate space for it so it doesn't muddy up the soundfield.

Hahaha, still funny vocals. Not sure why I wasn't feeling the delivery on them as much the first time around, because they're awesome. The instrumentation still sounds comparatively quiet and lo-fi. Not sure why that is, but this could really use some polish. Just brighten up the track with some appropriate higher frequencies and separate the parts better, and this would be good to go. The production was a clear improvement from last time, but it still needs that final push. Don't be discouraged, bros, I really wanna see this make it to the front page!

NO (refine/resubmit)

[anosou]

Ah, Jahan, you're my knight in shining armor. This is exactly what OCR needs. Even though I hate the genre! Anyway, the arrangement is solid and not the issue here so I won't elaborate more than that. Thanks for the breakdown though! The production is another story though.

The mix in general seems muddy and lacking in high-frequencies. The background guitars sounds like you low-passed them which is going in the entirely wrong direction in such a bass-heavy mix. The drums weren't bad all the time but I'd like to see a bit more punch in the kick drum. More bass there, less bass everywhere else except the bass. The "ride" did sound horrible though, sample-wise, especially at 3.07. Sounds like an old drum machine (which is cool, but not here). Try finding some fuller cymbal samples in general but mainly the ride. Compressing the whole kit and while EQing pretty much every element of it will help you have complete control over the sound and what's audible, try it.

Separating the guitars some more in terms of equalization AND panning would also help this track. The vocals are very audible though. Sometimes they sound like they're clipping a bit from recording but it's not horrible and kinda fits the style. The vocal performance is pretty awesome although I feel some parts could've been a bit better. The singing style at 0.58 is the one I fancy the least. It sounds too strained and distorted. 2:12 was VERY good. Use that mixing some more to really add some power to some sections, it's a welcome change in the soundscape.

Yeah, this needs to be on OCR. Yes, the mixing is holding it way back at the moment. Yes, ask sixto to try and mix this too. Yes, resubmit.

Yes, NO(resubmit)

[zykO]

ugh.

i'm not going to go on another metal RULES! rant here but let's be a little more reasonable here... there is very little wrong with this mix outside of the awkwardness of the "viking metal" genre. it isn't anything like the 4 on the floor trance shit we listen to every other submission where we can become accustomed to what we expect from the genre because we've heard it so much... i doubt any of us listen to "viking metal" more than once a year at most... if any kind of metal, at all.

if there was ever a complaint it ought to be the drums... they can still be brought out more. they can still have a larger presence in the soundfield in parts. the chief extension of this problem is how the mix compensates for the lack of oomph in the drums by being very bass-heavy, making the whole thing sound very weird.... like an extremely topheavy structure.

still, what on earth are we going to continue bashing the vocals for? sure they're fuckin funny... listen to em? it's like the cookie monster meets richard wagner. but that is precisely why this mix is so damn cool.

let's avoid the "haha the vocals are funny" bit and start giving these guys some cond. votes rather than shutting the door in their face because we don't like or understand this kind of metal.

YEScond. on those distant, disenchanted drums

[Liontamer]

let's avoid the "haha the vocals are funny" bit and start giving these guys some cond. votes rather than shutting the door in their face because we don't like or understand this kind of metal.

Both of the NOs say the arrangement is good but the mixing is holding it back. What did that have to do with the vocals or genre?

[zykO]

Both of the NOs say the arrangement is good but the mixing is holding it back. What did that have to do with the vocals or genre?

no i meant it as a general impression that i'm getting from the last submission and this one. it really does sound like most of the stuff i've heard of that type of metal. i might be wrong but i trust my gut.

anyways, didn't mean to single you out... i just love you like that, larry

===

and i had to edit "this=the drums" to clarify that i'm not happy about the drums

[Liontamer]

Nah, it's all good. I know Mattias criticized the vocals this go, and I did last time, but even so, I think we both felt they didn't do anything meaningful to hurt the track. I definitely came around to the vocals on this shot; they're awesome! NO vs. conditional YES is always tough. I'll always go NO if it looks like a tweak here and there wouldn't be enough to fix up the issues, but I definitely want to see this make it in some form.

[Palpable]

Yep, this is an improvement, but I feel like some new problems might have been introduced (or maybe I just didn't catch them last version). The vocals are couched better in the track and they still have that power they need, that's a plus. I should note even with the last version my problem was not with the vocal performance at all. It was with the vocal distortion and the mixing levels.

There's more low-end emphasis than I remember from last version. The backing guitars should have more high-end to them. Hi-hats could use more sparkle too. With the vocals, you might want to cut unneeded low-to-mid-range frequencies. I guess in general, I still hear conflicting parts that EQ would help. There's also that dang clipping on the vocals, but I'm willing to concede that there's an effect there. The EQ problems are more clear-cut, and to me, it's not an easy enough thing for a conditional YES.

Arrangement is fine, just as it was last version. Don't need to change a thing except for the mixing. Keep at it, guys! The end is within sight!

NO (resubmit)

[Vig]

The only thing I'm hearing that might hold this thing back from a YES is that some of the vocals are crunchy in a not good way. e.g. 2:12 that doesn't sound intentional, and it doesn't sound good.

Fix that and you've got a YES

[Fishy]

I'm gonna agree with zyko on this. They're doing exactly what the style calls for.

The 2:12 vocals mentioned above are clipping due to over-distortion, but that sounds like an isolated example to me. Overall I don't have enough of a problem with the vocal distortion or mixing to warrant a NO. Likewise, the drums could be better, but its not as if they're bad. The overall mixing is a little muddy, but I could hear everything fine. I've heard worse mixing jobs on accepted rock mixes.

Zyko was saying this should be getting more then NO, resubs by now, but honestly I can't see why this isn't getting even one straight YES. Metal is incredibly difficult to master, being very high energy and fast, and they've done a great job of the style, better then a lot of other passes have done in their own style.

The arrangement is strong, and frankly I found the main problems of a lot of other votes to be nitpicks as opposed to major issues. I've listened to this repeatedly for a while just to be sure; I enjoy this remix, and I have no glaring issues with the productions, call me generous but

YES?

[zircon]

I still don't get why you didn't use Sixto's mix, as Larry suggested. That guy knows how to mix metal, and the difference is pretty stark even between this version and his. Not trying to be a hater here.. but I still don't feel like the vocals sound that great here, and the emphasis on drums, rhythm guitar, lead and vocals just gets old in my opinion over the course of the mix. Juan's use of strings made it much more interesting, and WAY more epic.

Arrangement is still strong... production is still the weak area. The vocals simply don't sit in the mix that well. Drums (mainly cymbals) could be improved, and the section Larry pointed out at 3:55 is indeed meandering (though in Juan's version it sounds more powerful.) Guitars sound a little more full than last time but still on the thin side IMO. The booming hits towards the end have too much bass and cause the whole mix to limit messily. Overall volume could be maxed out a little more.

I have to say, I still do like the mix as a whole, and it has improved since the previous sub... but the production is still on the sloppy side and could use some extra tightening. Very close, though. I can't say this enough but really check out Sixto's mix... I would YES this with no hesitation if that were subbed, so maybe the production should emulate that more.

NO, resubmit

[Malcos]

I don't listen to this type of metal at all, but I'll give it my best shot anyways.

The only issue I have with this mix is the vocals - I don't know if compression is used at all for metal vocals, but used here it could keep the vocal hot while at the same time stop it from over distorting and being overly loud compared to the instrumentation. At certain points in the mix, 2.15 being a good example, the vocal is just mixed too loudly. Everything else sounds top notch to me. Some more mixing would make this a yes, I would definitely like to see this on OCR.

YES (conditional)

[big giant circles]

I want to smash my face into the keyboard. This is awesome.

That being said, I think the mixing is really muddy. The guitars especially, it sounds like that loud thumping when your neighbors are listening to metal in an adjoining apartment or something. Parametric EQ2 is telling me that the frequencies between 50k and 200k are being viscously raped. The *booms* from 4:39 - end with all the reverb made my ears go

This definitely just needs a bit of a production polish. I'll agree with Vig in that the vox section he mentioned didn't sound right despite the style.

Mainly, though, I'd be fine with it if not for all the mud. Otherwise, this is a really solid track. Haven't heard Sixto's but if Andy will vouch for it so strongly, it probably addresses a lot of the concerns I have.

[guttural scream]RE-SUB-MIIIIIIT[/guttural scream]

[DarkeSword]

I'm good with the arrangement, but if we can get some fix on the muddiness that everyone already talked about, we're good.

YES conditional

[CHz]

Neat.

3:54 coming right out of the solo, that section goes on for so long that it sounds like there's supposed to be a melody or something else there but there isn't. Well, technically there is, but it's so buried there that it might as well not be there. Was that intentional? If nothing's really going to happen there then it might as well be shortened up.

That's really the only sore spot I have on the mixing, muddiness etc. has been extensively covered but everything is fairly audible. Even the booming at the end, yeah they eat up the track a bit so you can pull them back but it's such an epic way to end the mix. 3:06 is the other main weird part with the drums, that could be fattened up.

Vocals could be fixed but this is probably the best possible style for making that not matter. Less crunchy would be greatly appreciated.

I feel like I'm trying to nitpick this down into not passing it. There's obvious room for improvement, but the arrangement is way hot enough to just about make up for it. I don't really want to do a conditional yes without giving you a specific thing to change, but honestly fixing any of the things that the other C-YES voters stipulated would put this over the bar for me.

YES (conditional on something)