OCR TF2: New Server forthcoming - new server IPs and other stuff

[DarkeSword]

Sticky camping has been an issue since day one. I want it to be resolved. 3 weeks ago bahamut ruled that only sticky camping opaque spawn doors isn't allowed. Since then, I've told people the same, and enforced the same. The MOTD says differently, and pubs and reserve slot holders alike have called me out on it. The rule changes every week, but I'd like what I'm saying and what the Server Rules consist of to be the same.

The MOTD is poorly written and it needs to be changed. The rule refers to spawn camping opaque spawn doors, not random opaque doors that are all over the level.

More difficult is "messing around".

When half the server wants to mess around, and the other half wants to play, how is one supposed to admin. There are regulars on both sides of the issue, so I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. When there are 6 heavies on Red only punching, and everyone on Blue is playing normally, the other 6 players on Red are going to complain and/or leave. If the whole server unanimously decides to "mess around" it's obviously not an issue. But when it's a few (and often regulars), people start to complain directly to me to do something about it. When is it considered griefing.

Here's how I do it: if anyone wants to play seriously, let them play seriously. People can and will complain (I know I did the other night) but really, we shouldn't enforce anything that's not in the server rules. If a scout is running around FaNing heavies who all want to melee only, then that's just something the heavies have to deal with. People shouldn't votekick/voteban the people who want to play seriously either.

Unless we plan specific stuff out in advance, we shouldn't enforce arbitrary "messing around" stuff.

[Powerlord]

Sticky camping has been an issue since day one. I want it to be resolved. 3 weeks ago bahamut ruled that only sticky camping opaque spawn doors isn't allowed. Since then, I've told people the same, and enforced the same. The MOTD says differently, and pubs and reserve slot holders alike have called me out on it. The rule changes every week, but I'd like what I'm saying and what the Server Rules consist of to be the same.

The only door I'm aware of in addition to spawn doors is the red door on pl_badwater, as it is essentially Red's outer spawn door up until point B is taken.

I just assume the point of contention here is ctf_turbine's doors. However, Turbine only has doors on one of its three exits to the main room.

More difficult is "messing around".

When half the server wants to mess around, and the other half wants to play, how is one supposed to admin. There are regulars on both sides of the issue, so I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. When there are 6 heavies on Red only punching, and everyone on Blue is playing normally, the other 6 players on Red are going to complain and/or leave. If the whole server unanimously decides to "mess around" it's obviously not an issue. But when it's a few (and often regulars), people start to complain directly to me to do something about it. When is it considered griefing.

That's been bugging me too. For instance, an admin kicked atmuh a while back for not doing melee only on 2fort.

Here's how I do it: if anyone wants to play seriously, let them play seriously. People can and will complain (I know I did the other night) but really, we shouldn't enforce anything that's not in the server rules. If a scout is running around FaNing heavies who all want to melee only, then that's just something the heavies have to deal with. People shouldn't votekick/voteban the people who want to play seriously either.

Unless we plan specific stuff out in advance, we shouldn't enforce arbitrary "messing around" stuff.

Exactly. It's one thing if we've intentionally switched to an arena map to do something like hide and seek on an arena map, but another if it's a "hey, we should all do melee!" type thing said over voice chat.

You'll never get me to agree to melee only, because I hate playing Heavy, and they have a huge advantage in melee only.

P.S. The Team Management commands don't appear to work at present, meaning admins can't move players between the 3 teams (including spectator), so we still have to kick people who have gone idle, rather than moving them to spectator.

[Bleck]

The MOTD is poorly written and it needs to be changed. The rule refers to spawn camping opaque spawn doors, not random opaque doors that are all over the level.

then what about that one door on badwater that closes off after point b is captured

[A Random Tiger]

Well the thing with messing around is, what if its only one person who isn't cooperating?

As in, everyone is messing around but one person.

Wouldn't that be a justifiable cause for a kick?

[Bleck]

Well the thing with messing around is, what if its only one person who isn't cooperating?

As in, everyone is messing around but one person.

Wouldn't that be a justifiable cause for a kick?

no

we shouldn't punish people for wanting to play the game, however obstinately they may be trying to do so

[Powerlord]

In case anyone wants to know what Rambo is talking about in the MOTD, this is what the MOTD currently says:

Welcome to the OverClocked ReMix TF2 server,

Home to the TF2 community of http://www.ocremix.org - check out the forums too!

Donations welcome too, check out the "OCR TF2" thread in the community forum for details.

We will be moving on to a new server soon - keep tabs on the TF2 thread or with other regulars for details!

We have a new Steam group now here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/overclockedremix/

Reserved slots are free for regulars! Just message [OCR]Bahamut for one.

Courtesy is of the utmost importance on this server, which give rise to the following rules:

NO

- Trolling

- Hate speech

- Racism

- Cheating/Abusing glitches

- Demo sticky spawn camping (offense/defense)

- camping opaque doors (i.e. shortcut door from red spawn on pl_badwater)

- Teamstacking

Micspamming is only allowed at admin discretion, and one at a time at most

Please also do so in taste - if it's obnoxious, it's a quick mute or ban.

Have fun!

[EdgeCrusher]

Ok, so sticky camping is addressed. Question though, what about in the case of a pyro + medic camping a spawn door, say in 2fort? This was a huge problem the other night, cause two pyros, one with a medic, camped the door near the courtyard. I died to them at least 10 times, and never once respawned at the other side of the fort. I said something about them camping the door, and I think it was pav, or another ZUZ member said "Its not sticky camping, just die and come out the other side, blah blah". Yeah, wasn't happening. So I just used this as a time to exploit it and run out the door, drop a sentry, get it demo'd by the pyro, repeat for points. I know thats not a right thing to do in the situation, and I died quite a few times doing it, but no one was doing anything about the pyros, cause we had 4 people huddled up in the door trying to get out it. I know one of the pyro's names were Tom though.

[Brushfire]

I agree with Jude. Kicking for one guy playing with the rest of the folks is not grounds for kick. Maybe a slay if everyone is in agreement. But never a kick.

[DarkeSword]

Well the thing with messing around is, what if its only one person who isn't cooperating?

As in, everyone is messing around but one person.

Wouldn't that be a justifiable cause for a kick?

Nope, it's not. It's not in the server rules and it's not something we should enforce. I won't enforce "messing around" rules.

Ok, so sticky camping is addressed. Question though, what about in the case of a pyro + medic camping a spawn door, say in 2fort? This was a huge problem the other night, cause two pyros, one with a medic, camped the door near the courtyard. I died to them at least 10 times, and never once respawned at the other side of the fort. I said something about them camping the door, and I think it was pav, or another ZUZ member said "Its not sticky camping, just die and come out the other side, blah blah". Yeah, wasn't happening. So I just used this as a time to exploit it and run out the door, drop a sentry, get it demo'd by the pyro, repeat for points. I know thats not a right thing to do in the situation, and I died quite a few times doing it, but no one was doing anything about the pyros, cause we had 4 people huddled up in the door trying to get out it. I know one of the pyro's names were Tom though.

That's just something you gotta deal with. Get a bunch of guys to switch to pyro and blow them back. Or everyone go heavy and rain bullets on them.

then what about that one door on badwater that closes off after point b is captured

That door is the reason we added the opaque rule in the first place, because we treat it as a "spawn door" for the first two points of Badwater (even though you can go around). Might be easier if we just specify that door as off-limits in the MOTD.

[Rambo]

ace, because we treat it as a "spawn door" for the first two points of Badwater (even though you can go around). Might be easier if we just specify that door as off-limits in the MOTD.

That would be good.

[Powerlord]

Nope, it's not. It's not in the server rules and it's not something we should enforce. I won't enforce "messing around" rules.

That's just something you gotta deal with. Get a bunch of guys to switch to pyro and blow them back. Or everyone go heavy and rain bullets on them.

That door is the reason we added the opaque rule in the first place, because we treat it as a "spawn door" for the first two points of Badwater (even though you can go around). Might be easier if we just specify that door as off-limits in the MOTD.

We treat it as a spawn door because Valve has clearly intended it as such.

On Badwater, RED's spawn has:

1. A locked right exit door. This unlocks after B is taken.

2. A giant arrow sign in front of the staircase just outside the left spawn door, pointing to the door we're discussing. This sign goes away after B is taken.

3. A closed door up the other stairs next to the door we're discussing. This opens after C is taken.

4. A second, lower spawn room. This starts being used after B is taken.

5. The door in question only opens for RED players and is marked No Entry for BLU. This is the only point that actually matters, as these properties are only found in Valve levels on spawn doors*, ergo it's a spawn door, even if BLU can enter the area behind it by going around.

*2fort has an unused spawn room near its intel rooms that also has this.

[Rambo]

*2fort has an unused spawn room near its intel rooms that also has this.

Interesting point. That's not even close to being a spawn. It's a resupply.

Same thing bothers me about advanced spawns as resupplies in badlands or well. Players will often hide in resupply areas, fire a few shots, go to the cabinet fire a few more. They have a ridiculous advantage by hiding in a resupply. If you choose to simply move on, they'll just flank you. If you stick around, they'll win. I think camping resupply rooms should be perfectly fine, considering that people inside are abusing it's cover, not spawning.

[Clefairy]

Interesting point. That's not even close to being a spawn. It's a resupply.

Same thing bothers me about advanced spawns as resupplies in badlands or well. Players will often hide in resupply areas, fire a few shots, go to the cabinet fire a few more. They have a ridiculous advantage by hiding in a resupply. If you choose to simply move on, they'll just flank you. If you stick around, they'll win. I think camping resupply rooms should be perfectly fine, considering that people inside are abusing it's cover, not spawning.

There are two typical characteristics of areas designated "spawns". One, they have resupply cabinets, two, people spawn in them. The room in question has the cabinet, but no one spawns there. It's like an inverted forward spawn in a push map, like Badlands when your team has 4/5.

Semantics, really.

Regarding people who hide, there's a significant difference between being flanked and being flanked when you know it's coming. Unless your hider is particularly quick on the draw, you could even move out of sight until they pop out again and ambush them.

[atmuh]

Nope, it's not. It's not in the server rules and it's not something we should enforce. I won't enforce "messing around" rules.

i got kicked for this about a week ago

and speaking of motds

i like mine the best!!!

[Rambo]

Regarding people who hide, there's a significant difference between being flanked and being flanked when you know it's coming. Unless your hider is particularly quick on the draw, you could even move out of sight until they pop out again and ambush them.

Suppose your team is taking the 4th capture point on badlands, and you chase a scout into the opposing teams first advance spawn (which at this point isn't a spawn at all). You can expect the flank all you want, but unless you walk into the dangerous part of the map backwards, they're going to widdle your life, or kill you after you've walked by. If you're a demoman, who already is at a disadvantage against scouts, do you want to keep walking toward enemy lines with one at your back?

It just seems silly, that because you forced your opponent into a defensive position, you have to give them an extremely advantageous one. They didn't spawn there. They put themselves there, and they shouldn't get a free pass for it.

[Jaybell]

I like playing this game with you guys.

I'm not particularly good, and my internet connection is horrible resulting in lots of lag on my part, but I still enjoy myself a lot.

[Clefairy]

Suppose your team is taking the 4th capture point on badlands...

They don't get a free pass, unless you give them one. I was hoping you'd bring up this example, because it's what I had in mind for my counter-argument.

Upon chasing the scout inside, you can do the in-and-out dance, or you can backpedal a bit and fall behind the rock immediately beside the dirt ramp leading up to the resupply.

Unless the scout sees you doing this, he'll assume you've either gone on toward the spire, or gone through the main door on the stone bridge for health. Either way, he runs off, advantage you.

[Rambo]

Unless the scout sees you doing this, he'll assume you've either gone on toward the spire, or gone through the main door on the stone bridge for health. Either way, he runs off, advantage you.

Him running off is hardly an advantage... how good are you with pipes? And if you're lucky enough to not get ganked by his teammates, or be seen by him, then you're just that. Lucky. You've gone from having the upper hand, to hopefully getting lucky. I'd agree with you if it were any other class but demo. But controlling your opponents movements as a demo is key, and without sickies you can't do that. Especially against scouts.

[Clefairy]

Him running off is hardly an advantage... how good are you with pipes?

I'm opposed to the demoman as a class; I think he brings too much to the table in comparison to the others, though it becomes really obvious when comparing him to soldier.

Suffice to say, not very good.

And I really think you're underestimating the value of psychology. For example, is it camping if you lay stickies on the ground outside the aforementioned resupply, then run off to the middle point with no intention of detonating? He wastes precious seconds destroying them, you get off Scot free and can carry on with your business.

--

In other news: http://communityfortress.com/tf2/news/exclusive-interview-with-valves-robin-walker.php

[Rambo]

And I really think you're underestimating the value of psychology. For example, is it camping if you lay stickies on the ground outside the aforementioned resupply, then run off to the middle point with no intention of detonating? He wastes precious seconds destroying them, you get off Scot free and can carry on with your business.

I AGREE!!! However, I brought this up a hundred pages ago or so, and it was deemed camping.

[Clefairy]

I AGREE!!! However, I brought this up a hundred pages ago or so, and it was deemed camping.

Yes, well. As the saying goes, that was then.

To me, it's in the little details. If the stickies are right up against the door, yeah, that reflects poorly on you. If it's a nice, even carpet on the dirt just past the cement of the room, that's fine. Same with intent; covering your tracks is one thing, keeping people trapped inside a room is entirely another.

[atmuh]

hey guys i was recently introduced to this plugin and gave it a test run on my server today

it replaces the scramble plugin that you have with a much more intelligent plugin that will automatically scramble the teams if one is seriously rolling the other (if one team has X more dominations, more than X times the kills, or the average points of both teams differs by X, all able to be set by the admin) so if there really NEEDS to be a scramble itll take care of it, and as always admins can do their own, with players still able to initiate a votescramble

you probably know how much i CANT STAND scrambling, but i really like how this works

http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=89136

oh and ya know i mentioned my server but never actually posted the ip

216.155.146.78:27015

please if you are going to join but dont want to listen to the music being played over the mic just disable voice (voice_enable 0) without announcing how proud you are to mute them because really that is just annoying (and you'll be kicked for it)

oh yeah and not sure if this has been posted here but http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/59820

thats why some players like http://steamcommunity.com/id/Famous_AnimaL are listed as playing TF2 Beta in steam

its good to see that valve is doing their best to work with the competitive players to balance competitive play as best they can

[Powerlord]

hey guys i was recently introduced to this plugin and gave it a test run on my server today

it replaces the scramble plugin that you have with a much more intelligent plugin that will automatically scramble the teams if one is seriously rolling the other (if one team has X more dominations, more than X times the kills, or the average points of both teams differs by X, all able to be set by the admin) so if there really NEEDS to be a scramble itll take care of it, and as always admins can do their own, with players still able to initiate a votescramble

you probably know how much i CANT STAND scrambling, but i really like how this works

http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=89136

I saw that plugin the last time I was checking to see if any plugins we have needed to be updated, and was really tempted to install it.

oh yeah and not sure if this has been posted here but http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/59820

thats why some players like http://steamcommunity.com/id/Famous_AnimaL are listed as playing TF2 Beta in steam

its good to see that valve is doing their best to work with the competitive players to balance competitive play as best they can

I'm not so sure I like that they're looking to change how The Sandman works. :/

[atmuh]

I saw that plugin the last time I was checking to see if any plugins we have needed to be updated, and was really tempted to install it.

I'm not so sure I like that they're looking to change how The Sandman works. :/

as i said works great highly recommended (i dont use the autobalance replacement though)

and come on introducing stuns in a fps was a HORRIBLE idea you have to admit that

[Powerlord]

as i said works great highly recommended (i dont use the autobalance replacement though)

and come on introducing stuns in a fps was a HORRIBLE idea you have to admit that

Yes, but CEVO apparently ban it because it stops Ubers.

I mean, heaven forbid that an 8 second invulnerability period have some sort of counter!