OCR TF2: New Server forthcoming - new server IPs and other stuff

[Clefairy]

The difference between this and botting in WoW is that Blizzard explicitly forbids it. Prior to retroactively punishing all the people using this program, there was absolutely nothing in the terms, announcements, or blogs that stated, or even implied that it was foul play.

Allow me to dig something up for you.

This time it seems a number of you used an external application to unlock all of your achievements in order to get items unfairly. Coming as a surprise to no one with the ability to retain memories of the recent past, I have taken these items from the perpetrators for one week.

In their eyes, the idler and the unlocker are on even footing. It's all about precedent.

[atmuh]

Allow me to dig something up for you.

In their eyes, the idler and the unlocker are on even footing. It's all about precedent.

but in the case of the unlocker its just a push button receive weapons thing (also i used the unlocker on a couple accounts like a month after they did that whole thing and nothing ever happened gj valve)

with the idler youre just exposing yourself to valve's REALLY STUPID random number generator for a longer period of time youre not tricking it into giving you more weapons or hats or things

in other news

[Trianine]

People used idlers to get weapons too.

Try doing that in a game where items and drops actually matter, like like WoW.

I think you are missing the point here. This is not a place where drops actually matter, not yet anyway. There are a half dozen ways to unlock the weapons that do, and honestly, each and every one of them is bullshit. There is no reason to require players unlock what are essentially standard items.

I hope you are familiar with the term victimless crime. But not many people seem to reflect on what it actually implies. Why is it victimless? Because nobody gets hurt. Well, then why is it a crime. Because someone in a place of power decided it should be. Victimless crime is something that IRL, people spend a lot of hard time in prison, and us taxpayers spend a lot of money holding them, for doing something as harmless as carrying marijuanna for personal use. I refuse to even smoke or drink alcohol, but I think it's retarded and I'm against this concept by principal. Nobody should be punished without adequate reason, even for something as unimportant as trying to win hats in an online game.

I recognize that valve developers are in a position where they can wear all the hats they want. I also believe that the developers covet this power, and want their users to be a little bit jealous, or themselves feel special. But at the heart of this, I think that Valve is a lot embarrassed about what a fiasco their inventory system has been from it's inception. And their solution to the problem reflects that. Quick, without warning, and already they are backtracking, because they didn't think it through (for the second time). They know that this isn't a situation that requires VAC Bans, and for that I am grateful. They haven't lost all sense. Your expectation that they should hand out these bans says a lot, though.

I find your rhetoric to be fascinating, Darkesword. You explicitly state that idling people are cheaters and simultaneously acknowledge that these items hold little value in terms of gameplay. You seem to be a little bit conflicted. And since Valve specified that there were no rules on the subject, we know they aren't cheating.

They're not going to come out and say, "If you already got away with it, we're going to let it go, but from now on don't do it."

Actually, except for landmark cases, this is largely how our justice system works, FYI.

Stop misusing the word Hacking. Just because it's an external program does not mean it is illegitimate. There are several external applications that can be used with Steam games. And if Valve thought it was "hacking", Drunken F00l would not be a name Valve endorses.

Rambo: I wanted to attach an image of a halo bestowed spy in an idle server, with the phrase: " taking the moral high road" but I couldn't find a place I felt comfortable linking.

i mean seriously though valve has taken their playerbase and turned them into a bunch of old women that do nothing but talk about their hat collection and i cant stand it

Seriously, you don't see what's great and you just said it. This is the only thing the hats are really good for, bragging rights and dreams of better headwear. And it's AWESOME.

[zircon]

You explicitly state that idling people are cheaters and simultaneously acknowledge that these items hold little value in terms of gameplay.

I'd say that exploiting the game in order to gain benefits in a way unintended by the developers (and, in fact, without even playing the game at all) is cheating without needing any sort of external definition. Furthermore, something can be cheating even when there's a negligible impact on gameplay, so I'm not sure why that's contradictory.

Also, enough with the "victimless crime" stuff. Valve is a private company, they can do whatever they want with their users. If the users don't like it, they can go elsewhere.

[Sensai]

Changing gears, I'm glad to see the heavy's run fast gloves aren't going to be silly busted. Taking damage per second is a good call on their part.

[Trianine]

Zircon, I'm going to pull out the dictionary for you to read, not for one, but two words. Both obtained by Wikipedia,and both used by you.

Cheating:

Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, [1]

Cheating implies the breaking of rules.

Exploitation:

1. The act of using something for any purpose. In this case, exploit is a synonym for use.
   
2. The act of using something in an unjust or cruel manner. It is this meaning of exploitation which is discussed below.
   

Just because you feel Idling is wrong doesn't mean it fits the terms you have given it. Before you talk about my comment being contradictory, you should at least not misuse these basic words. Do you actually care, or are you just here because you didn't like what I said and had to say something?

[A Random Tiger]

Changing gears, I'm glad to see the heavy's run fast gloves aren't going to be silly busted. Taking damage per second is a good call on their part.

Yeah that'll be an interesting item to have.

I can see it becoming a staple for good Heavy players

[Trianine]

Kinda like carrying that knife in CounterStrike, eh? I wonder what kind of speed boost it will offer, will it be worth the damage reduction? The heavy gloves are fearsome tools. But even at a modest speed, three-hitting a scout is not a fun solution to me. It would make traveling around maps nice though.

[Powerlord]

Cheating:

Cheating is an act of... fraud

Have you read Wikipedia's definition of fraud?

In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual.

Strangely enough, this is exactly what the idler program does. It intentionally tricks the Valve master server into thinking you're playing the game in order to receive items.

Oh, and unrelated to the anything previously said Valve's Steam Subscriber Agreement includes:

You are entitled to use the Steam Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to... emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Steam Software, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Steam Software, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, without the prior written consent of Valve

The Idler program falls into this definition, because it emulates the communications protocol used by Team Fortress 2 servers to the master servers (or the protocol used by TF2 between client and server, I can't tell which having not actually used it).

[Trianine]

Have you read Wikipedia's definition of fraud?

Unless Valve's servers can pass a Turing test, I fail to see how you can trick it into doing anything. It merely responds to the requests given to it in a strictly defined manner.

Actually, I have seen this selection of the Subscriber Agreement, and it is a good reminder that the idler was in fact against the rules. And I wholly support Valve standing by that and essentially shutting it down. And you shut down half of my argument, but I still stand by my principals in saying that the punishment was not merited (and despite the EULA) no crime was committed.

[EdgeCrusher]

Idlers are a work around to actually playing and earning it the way you are suppose to. There is not really much difference in this and if you were to get on an MMO and buy gold from a place to get items. Its all a work around to a system that is set in place to give a rare item for play time, and you are not playing. Difference here being the hat is a non statistic changing item, its cosmetic. But people on the steam forums, SA, and even here are bitching about it cause for some reason a large majority (notice the large majority part there Tri, since you seem to think I'm singling out everyone here) think Valve has rendered the game unplayable cause they can't get the hat they want. And yes, it should be common sense that if you use an external program to work around a drop system on an online game that you will be punished somehow. Why is everyone in a fuss that its happening now? Valve even has posted blog statements in the last few months about people using idlers and idling and that they do not approve of it. So if you want to whine about your weapons being taken away, its really no ones fault but your own for downloading the idler program. I'm glad I just idled on a server for the huntsman on release and didnt download a program to bypass this, but call that common sense if you will.

[atmuh]

Valve even has posted blog statements in the last few months about people using idlers and idling and that they do not approve of it.

??????????????????????

[EdgeCrusher]

Sorry, I messed up on that, they have had blog posts about using unlockers to get items without playing, then the sept 2nd blog saying they were gonna start removing weapons for idlers. The TF2 forums on steam's site have had mods telling everyone for the last 2 months that idlers are not allowed though, so thats usually a little bit of a sign of "hey, don't do that".

[zircon]

Just because you feel Idling is wrong doesn't mean it fits the terms you have given it. Before you talk about my comment being contradictory, you should at least not misuse these basic words.

Powerlord pretty much covered what I would have said. "You can't trick something that isn't human" isn't really an apt argument either. Like it or not, we use terms like 'trick' all the time when it comes to computers! ie. Your browser can be "tricked" into trusting a bad security certificate, for example. Also, those definitions of exploit are very clearly different than the definitions traditionally used for computer games, so THAT semantical argument ALSO doesn't work.

An 'exploit' in a game is something that the code technically allows, but goes against the intention of the designers & programmers, usually conferring an advantage to the player that cannot be achieved through the course of intended gameplay under the same circumstances. An idling program falls under that definition perfectly, because while Valve's code certainly allows it (you're not "hacking" their code, technically), it's very clearly not intended and confers the advantage of being able to get items without actually playing the game.

An analogy would be in Street Fighter, if there were some combination of button inputs that caused your opponent to disconnect (and for you to get a win for the match.) That "ability" is obviously not supposed to be part of gameplay, but it's technically allowed in the game code. So if players actually use it to farm wins, that would be an exploit (or perhaps, cheating via an exploit.)

Another example would be in a game like Diablo II, where you could duplicate (dupe) items by going through an elaborate process that basically involved desynchronizing the server by using a specific combination of in-game and meta-game (battle.net-related) actions. Any one of those actions was perfectly legal, ie. creating and leaving games, or dropping various amounts of gold on the ground. It's just that when you combined them in a certain way, it became an exploit that gave you the advantage of unlimited items, something not intended by the designers.

I've actually coded a number of multiplayer games myself, from scratch, that relied on persistent mechanics like this. I had to deal with players using exploits all the time. It's extraordinarily frustrating, because you expect players to have the brain to tell what the difference between intended and unintended is, but evidently they don't, in any genre of game.

Do you actually care, or are you just here because you didn't like what I said and had to say something?

I don't just post to see my own text on the screen. Stop being a dick.

[atmuh]

Sorry, I messed up on that, they have had blog posts about using unlockers to get items without playing, then the sept 2nd blog saying they were gonna start removing weapons for idlers. The TF2 forums on steam's site have had mods telling everyone for the last 2 months that idlers are not allowed though, so thats usually a little bit of a sign of "hey, don't do that".

some of us avoid the steam forums because the content of the posts make us wanna bash our faces against the wall

[Rambo]

#1 Idlers are a work around to actually playing and earning it the way you are suppose to. There is not really much difference in this and if you were to get on an MMO and buy gold from a place to get items. Its all a work around to a system that is set in place to give a rare item for play time, and you are not playing. Difference here being the hat is a non statistic changing item, its cosmetic.

#2 Valve even has posted blog statements in the last few months about people using idlers and idling and that they do not approve of it.

#1 No hat is earned. Whether you idle, fake idle, or play, getting a hat is chance. There is nothing systematic about random drops. Play time is not a factor in receiving a hat. The more time you're connected to a server, the more you're exposing yourself to random chance. However one player may connect for a minute and find a hat. Another may connect indefinitely and never see one. The player who found one in a minute hardly earned it.

#2 ???

I've not seen this, if you can provide a link I'd appreciate it. If this is true, it seems strange that they'd then give people idling in-game halos.

EDIT: just saw your last post. nvm.

For the record, I've played approximately 300hrs since the random drops were initiated. I've found 0 hats in-game. I don't mind that they took away the hats I've found fake-idling, but rewarding the people who didn't care, didn't know, were too scared, or especially idled in-game, is just silly. So until they retroactively VAC-ban everyone who enters achievement_idle, I guess I'll start doing that while I'm not playing.

EDIT2: Thanks for posting that Steam User Agreement Powerlord. I'd conveniently never looked at that.

[Powerlord]

The server stopped responding a few minutes ago. I restarted it. I'm not really sure why it stopped responding, though. Usually if the server crashes, it auto-restarts.

[Trianine]

I don't just post to see my own text on the screen. Stop being a dick.

Calm down. I meant what I said, and didn't expect you to even reply. Your swift dismissal of my previous comment in addition to the curt reply led me to believe that you don't really care. So I asked, because I enjoy having these discussions only if they aren't one-way. I am sorry if my response was colored condescending, that was not intended. I do recognize the use of the words as you describe them, however do try to distinguish between the common misuse of the word and the actual definition. You might know the word rootkit. Many people mistake an actual rootkit for something conceptually similar. Much like, I believe, the way you describe an exploit. Basically, I think you are reaching with your definitions.

Wikipedia has a specific article on exploits in video games. I don't think the definitions are dissimilar, honestly, but this article is much clearer, for sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28online_gaming%29 It very succinctly agrees that it is an exploit under the EULA, and even mentions AFK gaming. I don't know enough about data mining to say that's what this is. But it sounds... close.

I still disagree with your jumping on the word "trick". Any number of words can be used to describe how the program and steam interact. Trick, is a biased word, it doesn't describe the process at all, rather how the user feels about the process. You could say seduced, raped, won, negotiated, and all of those words are anthropomorphic extensions that sum up what goes on, but have very different connotations, none of which are really appropriate, given the term in question, fraud. And we are not "deceiving" an individual, as the article states, but a program. if you actually read the full article of Fraud, you will find that the idler program doesn't meet the criterion for fraud, at all. I didn't think I'd have to go and say that.

[Rambo]

I've been in an achievement_idle server for a few hours, and I've only gotten one grouping of items. They were all the items that valve took away which I had already earned through achievements. I wasn't there when it happened, but I'm assuming that wasn't just a coincidence because it was the exact 4 that I was left without, and all at once.

I'm guessing the rumor was true that they would return items that you had the prerequisites for.

[Syntax_Error]

Spray downloads put here by request on the ORC server

http://www.websyntax.net/img/pro_halo_sprays.zip

SAMPLES:

Both are included. Do not use these samples, use the tagas in the zip file, it works better with TF2.

Enjoy

[Sensai]

I really don't think spraying stuff that is more or less 'holier than thou because I didn't "cheat"' is nothing but a bad idea. There's already, apparently, a lotta shit going down between those with halos and those without.

/sigh

[A Random Tiger]

I really don't think spraying stuff that is more or less 'holier than thou because I didn't "cheat"' is nothing but a bad idea. There's already, apparently, a lotta shit going down between those with halos and those without.

/sigh

It would be funny to do it just to troll the butthurt people, but I think just wearing a halo does that enough.

I'm hoping nobody pulls any of that "I don't heal halos" kind of shit on this server.

[Clefairy]

It would be funny to do it just to troll the butthurt people, but I think just wearing a halo does that enough.

I'm hoping nobody pulls any of that "I don't heal halos" kind of shit on this server.

We had a guy... last night? earlier today? I don't remember exactly, but he was doing just that.

Anyway. Obviously this has been bothering a lot of people for a long time; sucks to be in the middle of it, but at some point the ruckus will die down.

[Bahamut]

If people want to play a certain way against people with halos, then they will just be banned for griefing. The end.

[Brushfire]

If people want to play a certain way against people with halos, then they will just be banned for griefing. The end.

I have done it once today.

Let that be a lesson to anyone who would play terrible games by Bungie.