VGM = Best music out there?

[abg]

It's not hopeless, but VGM isn't what it used to be, at the moment.

Thank you! I guess this is really in a roundabout way what I was trying to get at. The topic creator asked a question, and I answered based on the way things are at present. Most of the remixes on this site (I'm quite comfortable generalizing here) are from the NES-N64 era... there's been plenty of good music since then but also looots of mediocre same-old.

I guess it just makes it more exciting to keep your eye out for that next new game that decides to do something bold and different (and inevitably have an interesting new concept on video game music to go along with it).

[Gario]

OH HAI

Weird quote, but it's caught my interest. Thanks for that link; I've been looking for that for some time now ...

SLyGeN, don't you think it's overgeneralizing things a tad if you say something in major is 'happy', in minor is 'sad'. dorian/'heroic', etc.? Due to how things are used historically, we tend to make these associations, but the key isn't the only thing that determines the mood. I like the Mario RPG battle song, so lets use it as an example. For sure, it doesn't sound dire, that I can agree with. Instead, the music sounds very uplifting and bouncy. The instrumentation, though, is very unique in how it's used. Instead of conventionally bright instruments, it uses convoluted instruments (like that... thing... playing the theme in the beginning). It then uses contrasts of the instrumentation to achieve tense moments. In fact, everything in that song conflicts with that major sound, so the listener doesn't feel 'good' when listening to the song, they feel engaged... or at least I do. Everyone's different .

It's funny, I didn't used to like the battle theme for Mario RPG for your very reason (It's in Major! Yuck!!), but it's grown on me over the years. Listen to elements outside of the key and notice the contrasts and tensions created

Oh, just a small extention to your post, ABG (playing the advocate to your advocate, here ) - Do you think that the NES - N64 era is the most popular to remix because the music was better, or is it that remixing a song where the developers had limitations is easier than remixing a song that the composer had full reign on the production? Really, it's easier to add to older music that only had four channels of blips to use as it gives the remixer room to add whatever s/he wants to add to the mix. If the song sounds complete it can be intimidating to start a remix as there is so much material to pick and chose from, leaving little room for personal interpretation... Just a thought.

[SLyGeN]

SLyGeN, don't you think it's overgeneralizing things a tad if you say something in major is 'happy', in minor is 'sad'. dorian/'heroic', etc.? Due to how things are used historically, we tend to make these associations, but the key isn't the only thing that determines the mood. I like the Mario RPG battle song, so lets use it as an example. For sure, it doesn't sound dire, that I can agree with. Instead, the music sounds very uplifting and bouncy. The instrumentation, though, is very unique in how it's used. Instead of conventionally bright instruments, it uses convoluted instruments (like that... thing... playing the theme in the beginning). It then uses contrasts of the instrumentation to achieve tense moments. In fact, everything in that song conflicts with that major sound, so the listener doesn't feel 'good' when listening to the song, they feel engaged... or at least I do. Everyone's different .

It's funny, I didn't used to like the battle theme for Mario RPG for your very reason (It's in Major! Yuck!!), but it's grown on me over the years. Listen to elements outside of the key and notice the contrasts and tensions created

Battle theme is uplifting and bouncy? So far my generalization holds true.

Go ahead and give me an instrumental written in Major that sounds morose.

I agree that instrument timbre adds some effect, but even noisy instruments, and those generally used for creepiness or darkness, when used in a Major context, will sound bright and maybe even out of place.

Haunted houses and tense moments are written in keys like Aeolian and Phrygian for a reason. Or they're non-functional. Again, for a reason.

[big giant circles]

what's with all this subjectible garbage still? let the dead horse just lay there. stop trying to pick it up with strings and make it tapdance.

[Arian]

Well, it all depends on your taste (of course).

Me, i'm a fan of weird music, epic music, exciting music and adventurous music... not so much of intimate music or songs.

So game music is definately high on my list, but it'll never beat good old orchestral movie soundtrack music!

Lately i've been analyzing the musical themes of Back to the future and Superman... and i gotta say... that stuff is simply the best... to these ears.

[Gario]

what's with all this subjectible garbage still? let the dead horse just lay there. stop trying to pick it up with strings and make it tapdance.

Sorry, dude; we still have no life here, let us squabble in peace .

I agree that instrument timbre adds some effect, but even noisy instruments, and those generally used for creepiness or darkness, when used in a Major context, will sound bright and maybe even out of place.

T'was the point I was getting at. Using something that is uplifting as the theme for that song and using such strange out of place timbres and use of space creates an odd contrast that doesn't bring the odd instrumentation to me, but drags down the originally cheery tune. Like BGC said, though, it's truly subjective, in this case, so neither one of us can come to a true conclusion.

Actually, I personally don't think of music in 'keys' or the like, as it limits me in my writing, so I'm probably at a disadvantage here

[MarkShark]

I just sort of skimmed over the thread..

It's quite hard for me to agree that nostalgia is the feeling that allows me to like video games since I've found myself to be barely susceptible to nostalgia.

What it could be is something similar to how I've noticed myself to like more of a music by a certain artist if I like that artist regarding the person or people they are, which something that influences my favoring of Rush and Nakagawa Shoko.

I mean, I'm listening to the soundtrack to Sonic Riders 2 right now, which I've never played before, and I'm enjoying it quite fine. Given, I'm familiar with and enjoy artists like Fumie Kumatani and Kenichi Tokoi.

On another hand with Tales of Legendia, it was probably the music that stood out with the little I played so far. Having already listen through the rest of the soundtrack and enjoyed it, it'll probably add to the gaming experience. It's clear the effects varies.

What I think I like most about videogame music is how rarely it needs to be defined to a genre. Like having electronic beats and riffs combined with more orchestral instruments like strings, piano, and flute, or something more of a rock style with synths. I also have a soft spot for insturmentals I'd say. The way this is taken and expanded in remixes is probably why I like them so much.

[SLyGeN]

Actually, I personally don't think of music in 'keys' or the like, as it limits me in my writing, so I'm probably at a disadvantage here

Keys are just theory. You're probably forming a melody in a key without realizing it. You could probably write more efficiently with theory knowledge, though. Sometimes I'll write a three-minute piece in a single night.

Or if you're a guitar player, all of the riffs and shit you learn are based on theory, too. Memorizing progressions... all theory.

But wait a sec. If you don't think in keys, how do you know what a specific mode sounds like? I think you need to have the same revelation I did. I'll never forget when my dad played Mary Had a Little Lamb for me, and flatted the third. My life became complete.

[abg]

Do you think that the NES - N64 era is the most popular to remix because the music was better, or is it that remixing a song where the developers had limitations is easier than remixing a song that the composer had full reign on the production?

In response to Gario's question, I'd have to say the reason (I think) this particular era of video game music is the most covered comes down to something I've touched on earlier in this thread... during this era, video game music was still coming into it's own, trying new things and experimenting with the medium. What this resulted in is a lot of unique soundtracks that had qualites that we had never heard before. When we (as gamers and remixers) heard these songs for the first time, we were being welcomed into a whole new world of music, and this left (at least on me) a profound impact- these soundtracks changed the way I percieved music.

But naturally, and as I've been going on and on about, competitors saw the success of these games and wanted to get into the market. The easiest way for them to do this was to emulate games that had already achieved a good amount of success. What this meant is that they specifically set out to create games that had similar gameplay, art and (most importantly for our discussion) music to what had already been done. Now, the more and more we continue to hear these doppleganger soundtracks, naturally the impact they are going to have on us it going to lessen and lessen, until it gets to the point where it's the way it is now- every other game that came out in 2008 had a soundtrack that was pretty indistinguishable from other soundtracks from games in the same genre, and they are (at least for me) on the verge of totally forgettable. Have you noticed how the XBOX allows you to mute a game's in-game soundtrack so that you can listen to your personal music collection? Someone at Microsoft noticed that some gamers out there don't enjoy the game soundtracks and would rather listen to something else. Not saying this should be unneccessary, it's a nice feature to have, but it is something to think about.

Now, when one of us remixers decides we want to sit down a write an arrangement of something from a video game, we are usually doing this to pay tribute to the music that connected with us the most. What sort of music do you think would have left that sort of impact on us? The music from a game that tried to be a chameleon and offer us an experience we've had time and time again? Or the music from a game that tried something new, pushed the boundaries a little bit and made us marvel at it's uniqueness when we played it? I think the answer should be pretty apparent.

I'm not trying to say there weren't any games in 2008 that had memorable soundtracks. Mirror's Edge and Fallout 3 (clever use of liscensed music) come to mind. These games were exceptional, but their soundtracks were the exceptions to what I've described above.

Something just occured to me- there is a whole new generation of young gamers out there who are experiencing video games and their music for the first time.The perspective I'm coming from is that of a gaming veteran who's been around since the birth of electronic games as a medium (can't help when I was born) and I, like most of the remixers and surely all of the judges here, have followed the evolution of this platform of entertainment with keen interest. But what about those young-uns who don't know what to think and are just playing games for the sake of having fun? If you were to ask a child, "what do you think of the music in this game?" I'm pretty sure that kid would say "it's pretty cool!" They haven't seen the things I've seen that have given me this jaded view on the current state of our game soundtracks. Just because I've described how the effects of commercialism have lead to most of our games having same-ish soundtracks, that doesn't invalidate the fact that there's some new gamer out there somewhere enjoying the music in Gears of War 2 and playing the game with wide-eyed wonder. On the flipside, just because there are virgin gamers out there eating up everything they come across, that doesn't invalidate the fact that I've noticed a trend in modern games that leaves me wanting something more.

Like BGC keeps saying, it's all subjective. That doesn't mean it won't make for an interesting discussion though

[Gario]

Keys are just theory.

lol, I know that. I know what and how a specific mode is used because I can listen in keys and modes if I need to (which is, obviously, a lot), it's just not how I listen to something the first time around. My own music personally gears towards neo-reimannian parsimony & 20th century counterpoint, so that is how I hear music at the moment, as well. I hear lines and the interaction of the voices; the harmonic layout is secondary.

Point is, I listen to keys as a secondary byproduct of the music, not the primary concrete setting. Listen to Wagner's prelude to the opera 'Tristan und Isolde' and tell me what 'key' it's in, I dare you (If you say A minor or A major, trust me, you'll be dead wrong ).

Perhaps this is an extention of your thoughts, abg, but do you think it's possible that it's not that fewer games are coming out that have excellent soundtracks, but that more games are coming out altogether (with not-so-good soundtracks) and it's the relative amount of good music coming out that's affected because of this, not the absolute amount?

*Watches the dead horse continue to tapdance*

[abg]

Haha, okay, so I was browsing vgmusic.com looking for a midi of a track I'm having a really hard time figuring out by ear (which wasn't anywhere to be found on there either, I guess I'm not the only one who can't get it ) and just for fun I thought I'd check out the forums while I was there. I stumbled across this thread that is a discussion in very many less words about what I've been talking about this whole time. Just thought it was an interesting coincidence! I know I'm not the only one who feels the way I do, but I didn't want to come right out and say it and then have the thread die, leaving me looking like a fool... which is probably still going to happen anyways but at least I won't be a lonely fool!

Responding to Gario, I'm not quite sure what you're implying so all I can really say is "maybe".

[SLyGeN]

Point is, I listen to keys as a secondary byproduct of the music, not the primary concrete setting. Listen to Wagner's prelude to the opera 'Tristan und Isolde' and tell me what 'key' it's in, I dare you (If you say A minor or A major, trust me, you'll be dead wrong ).

It's pretty non-functional. There are diminished modes, too. I'm sure someone's given a name to some scale that could be applied to parts of that Wagner piece. It certainly doesn't stay in the same mode, either, whatever it may be.

I'm not real sure what your point is. I don't think I implied that sticking to a church mode is necessary. I'm sure Wagner knew what he was doing, though.

[Lunarfall]

All music is VGM when converted to 8 bit

vs. the real thing

[Gario]

I'm not real sure what your point is.

My own music personally gears towards neo-reimannian parsimony & 20th century counterpoint...

Point is, I listen to keys as a secondary byproduct of the music, not the primary concrete setting.

That was my point. Wagner was an example of the type of music I was describing, there. I was hoping you'd see that music exists where listening for a key will cut off most of what you can hear in the music. As that is some of my favorite kind of music, that's ended up being how I write and hear music

I don't think I implied that sticking to a church mode is necessary.

It certainly doesn't stay in the same mode, either, whatever it may be.

The response to the Wagner song confirms that you believe that, deep down, the piece must be in some key, there, as it uses triads and the like. If you think in keys for much of later romantic music and all 20th century music it'll limit your thinking and you'll miss out on the bigger picture (which was quite a revelation to me, as I used to listen for a key in anything with triads). Wagner breaks out of the concepts of 'keys' and 'modes' as the piece never establishes any key at any one point. He uses an 'A' to begin with, but it is never established as a tonic using a true cadential function. The way he writes so much dissonance on the metric beat destroys the concept of 'consonance' and 'dissonance' altogether, as well, so the piece is truly one of the first 'non-tonal' pieces of music I can think of. Think about it - if you can't tell what is consonant or dissonant, then how can you tell what the scale or key really is?

I'm sure someone's given a name to some scale that could be applied to parts of that Wagner piece.

God help me, they have. Putting names to scales on a piece like that, however, is an exercise in futility. By the time the 'scale' is established it changes to an entirely different 'scale', so it doesn't help identify what is happening in the music in any way at all (Like you said, non-functional). There's always a new guy trying to tell the establishment that the piece must be tonal because it uses 'keys' and 'triads', but if one listens to it in that fashion they'll get lost in the constant amount of change involved.

.

If you want to know the proper theory behind how that particular piece works, read up on Parsimonious Voice Leading, or Neo-Riemannian theory (I think Richard Cohn wrote an article on that one in 1997); you'll see that it doesn't use the concept of 'keys', yet still works in the frame of triads and the like. It is a more proper explination of how that piece works.

I'm not quite sure what you're implying so all I can really say is "maybe".

Hopefully this will clear up my other comment, abg; If you had 2 good apples among 2 rotten ones, you'd be able to find the good apples pretty easily. If there were 2 good apples among 500 rotten ones they'd be much more difficult to find. In both cases, there are 2 good apples (absolute amount), but the field that they are in is larger in one case over the other, so it seems like there are less in there than before (relative amount). Hope that clears it up .

By the way, nice find, Lunarfall )

[SLyGeN]

The response to the Wagner song confirms that you believe that, deep down, the piece must be in some key, there, as it uses triads and the like. If you think in keys for much of later romantic music and all 20th century music it'll limit your thinking and you'll miss out on the bigger picture (which was quite a revelation to me, as I used to listen for a key in anything with triads). Wagner breaks out of the concepts of 'keys' and 'modes' as the piece never establishes any key at any one point. He uses an 'A' to begin with, but it is never established as a tonic using a true cadential function. The way he writes so much dissonance on the metric beat destroys the concept of 'consonance' and 'dissonance' altogether, as well, so the piece is truly one of the first 'non-tonal' pieces of music I can think of. Think about it - if you can't tell what is consonant or dissonant, then how can you tell what the scale or key really is?

Well, I certainly wouldn't recommend going into the psychology field..

I think you're mistaking my ability to analyze music as an inability to feel the music as a whole.

[Gario]

I think you're mistaking my ability to analyze music as an inability to feel the music as a whole.

Sorry, SLyGeN, if what I'm saying sounds like a personal attack or something; I don't mean it like that. Where I'm coming from is that the purpose of analysis IS for the listener to gain an understanding of how to feel the music and why (or so I believe, personally), so if one interprets something one way it implies that is how they're hearing it. If you interpret the music one way but hear it another... well, that's bad theory practice, and it's done a whole lot in the field. Don't go there. I'm merely trying to show you other ways of thinking about the music - you've got one way down very well, great! Now here's another way to think about music (I wouldn't point you towards Cohn if I felt you didn't get the concept of keys and modes perfectly, so take this as a compliment, please!). No, I was directing you towards another theory of music because I thought you'd be interested, not because I think your stupid for thinking in keys.

In this day and age a full undertanding of keys will get you hearing and understanding 90% of what's out there, and your probably able to comfortably listen to another 8% without understanding it (and the last 2% delves into some real wierd shit that most people won't listen to, anyway). I'm pointing to some of the theory from the 8% bracket.

Well, I certainly wouldn't recommend going into the psychology field..

...I'm sorry, but I lol'd at that. I've got a Bachelor of Science in Psychology (no joke)... I'd take the recommendation, but it's too late .

The field I'd be terrible at is Human Relations, as I seem to come off as an ass more often than not...

[abg]

If you had 2 good apples among 2 rotten ones, you'd be able to find the good apples pretty easily. If there were 2 good apples among 500 rotten ones they'd be much more difficult to find. In both cases, there are 2 good apples (absolute amount), but the field that they are in is larger in one case over the other, so it seems like there are less in there than before (relative amount).

Yeah, I can definately agree with that. The old needle in the haystack bit, right? I think that's a fair way to describe the gems of modern video game music.

[SLyGeN]

if what I'm saying sounds like a personal attack or something;

Not at all.

I don't mean it like that. Where I'm coming from is that the purpose of analysis IS for the listener to gain an understanding of how to feel the music and why (or so I believe, personally), so if one interprets something one way it implies that is how they're hearing it.

I would disagree. I think that's backwards. It's up to the composer to understand theory (keys?) to evoke an intended emotion. I'm sure Wagner knew how dissonant chromatic motives sounded, and I'm sure he understood the music further than I'm even able to look. He knew what he wanted the music to feel like, but you see, he was the composer, not the listener.

I'm not sure why you're saying the study of music better enables one to feel the music. Non-musicians can still have their emotions enticed by music, and that's why it's so popular. It doesn't really take anything special to get the gist.

[cobaltstarfire]

I would disagree. I think that's backwards. It's up to the composer to understand theory (keys?) to evoke an intended emotion.

What about composers that don't know any of the actual theory?

[Guy In Rubber Suit]

Metal is my main musical diet though I definitely love video game music, the kind I listen to generally is hard rock or metal in nature such as the Dracula rearranged albums or just about anything from Dwelling of Duels. So basically my musical tastes fall into video game music as well.

[Gario]

I'm sure Wagner knew how dissonant chromatic motives sounded, and I'm sure he understood the music further than I'm even able to look.

Just letting you know, he couldn't have known any of the theory that he was applying to his music. He knew about counterpoint and harmony, and he probably knew about Riemann's tonnetz, but what he did with his music far surpasses the theory of the time. If he wrote music that no theory of the time could explain, how could he have known the theory behind it? He knew what he was doing, sure, but it isn't theory that he knew. It was his methods of composition that he was following (which isn't theory - it's composition).

Theory is written and talked about after the fact that the music was written, not before. The composers write what they believe sounds good to them; they don't care 'why'. Wagner knew that he liked the sound of his music (much like I'm sure you and I like the sound of our own music when we write it), but claiming that he knew of the theory that he was applying a hundred years before anything resembling a theory to describe his music... it isn't possible.

Yes, it is the composer's job to evoke an 'intended emotion', but only for himself. As tonal music is what we grow up listening to, we get to share in the emotions of the composers of those times, and if a composer wants to evoke those same emotion today they will probably use similar techniques as the past because the listeners have become accustomed to those sounds. Listen to some world music sometime, though. They use completely different methods of writing music altogether, and thus it's impossible for us to listen to it and get the same emotion that the composer intended to evoke (and if the people listen to our music, they often find it disgusting to their ears). It's a romantic ideal to believe that Music has a universal effect on everyone regardless, but it isn't true. It's not the composer or the music that creates an emotion... It's the listener's interpretation of the music that evokes the emotion (whether the listener knows it or not).

... Leave it to us, SLyGeN, to take a forum where it wasn't intended to go...

[Salluz]

I prefer VGM more than 95% of mainstream garbage. VGM is more liberal than the mainstream, giving more room to various styles and freedom of expression. It's different with contemporary; money has to be made.