Silent Hill Discussion

[DJ Skratch 'n' Sniff]

My guess is that they just wanted to throw Pyramid Head into the film because he's bad ass. I'm sure that that's their only reasoning. Weeeell, maybe it's because they wanted to have some sort of "bad guy" from one of the games, as a little insentive for the gamers, and I don't think Claudia or Walter would make much sense so, meh, they just threw in the creepy thing with the big knife.

[The Joker]

I was right! Well, in that it was Akira's final say, & I guess he decided PH was a higher up in the SH universe. I wonder if Valtiel is a version of Pyramid head?

[Aetherius]

I got the impression that the book of lost memories was written by a third party, since it has little quotes from the creators as though they'd been interviewed, but not entirely integrated in its creation. Also, Akira Yamaoka may be the official word on this movie, but he's really only the sound and musical guy. He probably has some say in the creative process, but I'm pretty sure that the characters and meanings behind them belong more to the other creators.

[RazorOutlaw]

Either PH is a version of Valtiel or PH is actually another "angel" in the cult's mythos that took the form of an executioner in SH2. And if that is the case then I was misinterpreting the line "the incarnation of James's need for guilt" as merely applying to its form and origin, not what the creature actually is (an angel, in this case).

Bear in mind that both PH and Valtiel wear the same religious clothing that the priests do (or rather, the priests derived their clothing from those two creatures.)

God, how a few days can make me sing a different tune.

[Nulion]

Razor, I'm just tossing out ideas here...But James in SH2 does have an awful lot of delusions. Maybe the parts you mentioned in the Book of Lost Memories are actually James-specific? As in he would see what he wants to see, in order to understand what is going on around him. Maybe even that book would have different text depending on the person who reads it. Makes about as much sense as a lot of other things in SH2, actually...Since you are playing the game from his perspective, you see what he wants to see; everything you see in that game is a mix of what James THINKS he sees, and what is actually there.

Spoiler..I think

One thing that points that out, I think, is how the letter he recieves in the beginning of the game starts to fade out, until it disappears by the time you fight the Mary\Maria demon. That letter was all in his head, right? I could be getting something wrong in there somewhere, hehe. At the very least, it does show that he can make things up and fool the gamer into believing it's real. Who's to say he didn't do that with the Book of Lost Memories?

EDIT: This post was me not thinking straight. Apologies, I didn't realize Razor was talking about the actual (In Print) copy of Book of Lost Memories...as opposed to the one you find in the actual SH2 game. (Which still makes little sense, because the in-game one doesn't mention any of this >.< I need to get more sleep before I post something)

[Manic Cinq]

Nulion, do you understand that the Book of Lost Memories is an actual book?

http://www.translatedmemories.com/

[DJ Skratch 'n' Sniff]

Hey, it can still be made up, can't it? I mean fictional books are written everyday. I'm not saying I agree with Nulion or anything; I just think your point is irrelevant.

[RazorOutlaw]

Mmm, there would be little reason for supplemental material about the game to be false. Wrong interpretations even with that material can still happen, if the James/PH fiasco (a fiasco for me, mentally) can still happen.

[Nulion]

Oh man, I am such an idiot >.< Here I am thinking the Book of Lost Memories you were talking about was the one in SH2 that you actually have to find in order to get the Rebirth ending. o.o

So there's actually TWO Books of Lost Memories...the one in the game, and the real one. I got 'em confused

Even so, I should've researched that a little and I'd have kept myself from getting confused. Ugh, sorry about that one guys.

Going to go and bash my head against a concrete wall and refrain from posting theories ever again

Whatever the case, I guess the best explaination about how PH is now not a James-specific monster\entity thing is that Team Silent is making this stuff up as they go. Maybe they just thought (Or Akira\Gans just thought) it would be better to have it this way, as opposed to what they were thinking around the time they actually designed SH2. They're only human, right?

[Manic Cinq]

Too bad you can't read the one in the game.

[Nulion]

You can't? Been awhile since I checked. I'd imagine it's mostly lots of cultish stuff that'd be cryptic and way outta my league.

[The Joker]

I'm pretty sure Akira is one of the Producers of the Silent Hill series.

[DJ Skratch 'n' Sniff]

I'm pretty sure Akira is one of the Producers of the Silent Hill series.

Yeah, as far as I know, he is. That would explain why the music is more than just fitting.

[RazorOutlaw]

I'm pretty sure Akira is one of the Producers of the Silent Hill series.

Yes, Akira actually has his hand in the movie. Infact, Team Silent worked pretty closely with Gans and Avery. It's only a bonus that the two of them were such fans of the Silent Hill series.

[Aetherius]

I'm pretty sure Akira is one of the Producers of the Silent Hill series.

I didn't mean to imply that he isn't, but simply that the creatures and plot in the game were probably created by the others.

[StarZander]

Some info about the movie, but I don't know if it's been posted before or not. Maybe spoiler though.

*SPOILER*

According to the cast list on imdb, both Henry Townshend and Eddie Dombrowski will appear in the film. I have no idea what they will be doing there. Eddie might be running around again killing people, and Henry might run around being boring. Who knows. Interesting though.

[Nulion]

That messup over at IMDb is a complete fake Note how the same actor is cited for several different characters which (If you're not talking about Alessa), makes no sense.

I'm not sure how information gets submitted to IMDb, but it's all user-submitted. And sometimes...the users are even bigger idiots than I can be at times. It's still a really good resource, but you can't be 100% sure everything you see there is accurate or true.

Hopefully someone fixes those false names that were inserted in there. I'd do it, but I have no idea how. Maybe you need an IMDb premium (Paid) account?

[Eccles]

It's a trap!

They set it up so it's all wrong so that hardcore fans like yourself pay them to let you put it right.

[Nulion]

^ Now that's just plain evil!

Oh, and just in case anybody wanted to know...On the FX channel, Tuesday the 11th at 7:30 pm (EDT) they'll be showing "Don't Say a Word" (With Sean Bean in it), and more than likely with each commercial break, they'll be showing some Silent Hill movie stuff in there.

Also, I hear that BET (Yes, Black Entertainment Television) will be showing a thing on Silent Hill Tuesday the 17th at 7:30 PM EDT.

While on that subject, did anybody see the recent Starz behind the scenes thing for the SH Movie?

If not, here's a high-quality version of the thing..

On The Set: Silent Hill (Friendly warning, it's a 190 MB file)

[Aetherius]

just so anybody knows, That Starz thing doesn't reveal much in terms of plot, but it shows a lot of visuals and things that you might not want to see if you'd rather be awed by the movie in its entirety.

[FriedRice]

I thought it revealed a decent bit of the plot.

[Monobrow]

Hey guys, did you maybe think that:

James and Mary may have visited the Historical Society during their stay in Silent Hill, and may have come across that painting (or a normal variation of) and may have also read about some of the history of the town there?

James' psyche produces Pyramid Head, but maybe this is only because his psyche needs SOMETHING to represent his guilt for what he did, and the violence of Mary's murder, and the emotions raging within his head. And considering what many consider the closest to "official" ending being the In Water ending, Pyramid's chasing of James, and constant threat may also represent his hidden desire to end his own life.

I personally always thought that Pyramid Head isn't exclusive to just James, but that he was just produced as a representation of what James was trying to supress. In that, Maria is similar to Pyramid Head, as she represents his hidden desires, etc. etc. IN SH2, Pyramid Head and Maria are ALIKE, in that they are both born from a wish, so to speak.

Not to mention that the Valtiel sect is said to wear pyramid hoods, similar to what the executioners wore during the Toluca Prison/Civil War era, etc. So it is perfectly feasable that many variations, based on these executioners, can be tied easily to the cult, and what people "sucked in" to a cult member's world, or whatever they are doing in the movie, will see.

[ifirit]

WARNING: Silent Hill 1 & 2 Spoilers and Possible Silent Hill Spoilers

I'm pretty sure he DID want to make a movie full of women' date=' but Tristar was all "what? no."[/quote']

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. That was just something I read on Wikipedia. When will big movie production companies realize that the public doesn't want a typical American-ified horror movie? Jiminey!

I think that you are confusing the information given by Roger Avary in an interview with IGN with the idea that TriStar was responsible for executive decisions like that. Avary was the writer who included the character Christopher DeSilva (played by Sean Bean) as a way to relieve the burden of explaining the history of Silent Hill (as presented in the film) from Rose's character, who's main objective is to find Sharon. In other words, Avary split up Harry's character into two personas, one as Christopher (who will retain Harry's inquisitive and pensive characteristics [as well as his masculinity]), while the other as Rose (who will embody Harry's emotive and emotional characteristics [including those that drive his parental instincts]). By adding this change, he was able to retain Gans' original vision while allowing the audience to follow the film a little better from a cognitive standpoint. Avary felt that this was the only major aspect of the story that needed to be revised. Also, according to people who were able to obtain copies of the script beforehand (no thanks to Don Carmody, producer for Silent Hill and Davis Films, who blabbed to everyone about the film's script), Christopher DeSilva is a very close embodiment of Harry Mason.

"I am the reaper" is out of context, but still just doesn't seem right at all... but that shouldn't be a surprise.

That part of the film appears to be occuring in the section that takes place in Nowhere (in the game), this could imply a variety of explanations, one of which could involve the mysterious fourth persona of the Alessa character. Gans has alluded to it in a few interviews, but has not revealed much information other than that one of Alessa's persona's is evil, suggesting a demonic presense. The quote might not be coming from Sharon or Alessa or even Sharon/Alessa, but from the awakened incubus within Sharon/Alessa. Another theory might be that it is a memory of Alessa arguing with a person from the same memory much like those from the game, where Harry sees the memories of the past replayed as ghostly images. Granted that this is not likely the case since there is a distortion in the audio and that Sharon/Alessa does not have a ghostly appearance. Still, it's not beyond plausibility.

So, it's official. PH is no longer tied exclusively to James, at least not in the way some of us felt the character was. As seen on the Director's blog...

Spoilers, I guess.

Mr. Gans: A lot of people feel that it doesn't make sense for the Red Pyramid to be in the film because he was a delusion specifically for James. While I think it makes perfect sense, can you shed some light on the subject so that peace may finally be restored to all the Silent Hill forums of the world?

- Jared S

Akira Yamaoka and I agree that Red P is not just a creation of James. Saying that Red Pyramid was solely conceived by James in Silent Hill 2 is just one of the explanations for his existence. James is just one point of view. Another perspective is to remember that Silent Hill existed before James and that Red P was one of the executioners in the original history of the town. So clearly, there is not one particular or exclusive manifestation of him as an entity.

My version of the Red P was adapted from the perspective of the female characters. I felt it important that their psyche influence his shape, dress and physicality.

And of course a statement displaying my outright confusion:

I'm just curious as to how in the hell the Book of Lost Memories can say that PH was incarnated from James's mind.

Doesn't that express exclusivity right there? The BoLM even says that PH was only a representation of his guilt...so...am I just being a stickler over semantics?

I mean, yes, I can and have been a stickler regarding PH here. When I read the word "only" I take that to mean that the creature is really only an incarnation of James's mind and not some part of the town. But now, I guess it isn't. Implied by ifirit a few pages ago (lol) PH is apparently a divine creature of some sort. Akira and Gans confirm this basically. If by saying that James's perspective was merely a unique way of seeing PH then PH must really be an intrinsic part of the town unlike the way all of those lesser monsters are.

I'm really curious as to how in the hell the internet kiddies ended up being right. They never bothered to cite the Book of Lost Memories for evidence, a lot of them just seemed to have this idea that anybody could see PH should their mental state allow it.

From reading the text of the Ushinawareta Kioku (Lost Memories) (I like to use this name to distinguish it from the book in the games), it implied that the Red Pyramid Thing was a being intrinsic to the religion of Silent Hill (not the town, though some people associate the two together). It seems that the text saying that the Red Pyramid Thing was "only" a manifeastation of James' delusion is only that the form seen by James is exclusive to him, not that the being was exclusive to James himself. You also have to consider that the context of the quote is within a question of what Walter Sullivan saw, not within the context of the entirety of the Silent Hill series.

Other parts of the Ushinawareta Kioku and the Silent Hill Fugue suggest that the Red Pyramid Thing is a being that was created as part of an invocation of Vatiel, the angel of god. The appearance of heavenly beings when another being is invoked is reminisant of the invocation of the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit from Christian beliefs, particularly Catholism. In some stories, God would send down the Holy Spirit (in an earthly form) to those who prayed to him in place of God himself and the Holy Spirit would act on behalf of God. In the context of the Silent Hill series, the guide book strongly implies that the same thing occurred with the Red Pyramid Thing, being that Vatiel was sent in the form of an executioner to act on god's behalf. However, it also implies that Vatiel is not the RPT and that they are separate entities. I cannot say with certainty which is correct, but it seems to me that the RPT is very closely connected to Vatiel as either a form of Vatiel or as an agent of Vatiel.

Anyway, as such, I have to ask myself now, why the Red Pyramid from the film, if a manifeastation of the female perspective, appears the way it does. But, I'll leave my thoughts on that subject for another day.

Hey guys, did you maybe think that:

James and Mary may have visited the Historical Society during their stay in Silent Hill, and may have come across that painting (or a normal variation of) and may have also read about some of the history of the town there?

It's widely considered that the couple did visit the Silent Hill Historical Society, but it is unknown as to whether or not James really absorbed anything from his visit. Some people, who consider the theory that everything James sees and experiences takes place within his mind, consider that the history that James learns while in Silent Hill the second time is just parts of what he heard and saw on the first visit emerged from his subconscious. This is fine to consider, but would put a strain on anyone's mind to have to recall that much information. It's likely that James did learn a little bit on his first visit and that the rest he genuinely picks up while exploring the town. However, in actuality, it cannot be stated with certainty what James knew about Silent Hill's past.

I personally always thought that Pyramid Head isn't exclusive to just James, but that he was just produced as a representation of what James was trying to supress. In that, Maria is similar to Pyramid Head, as she represents his hidden desires, etc. etc. IN SH2, Pyramid Head and Maria are ALIKE, in that they are both born from a wish, so to speak.

I'm glad someone else finally sees that observation. I've tried to make that point before, but many people rejected the notion because it made Maria's character appear diminished as a person; it made her appear as a monster and not a character, which she is for the most part. But, I believe Maria to be a manifeastation uniquely characteristic to Silent Hill, being that it is the place where people can see the spirits of the dead, as well as the living. (I'm using the word "spirits" very loosely since Native American beliefs don't view spirits the same way that people of Judeo-Christian faiths do.) But, Maria is always a touchy subject with a lot of people. Maria is a mysterious character who knows a lot more than she leads people to believe. Maria's discussion about fate with Ernest Baldwin plays a major role in my theory, but since so much has to be implied from that conversation that it makes the subject hard to explain to other people.

[RazorOutlaw]

Spoilers!

Mmm thanks for the response. I had a similar idea in my head that James was seeing Pyramid Head because that's what he wanted to see in Valtiel...not sure if I posted that already.

But this discussion jump started some else from my mind too. I found out about PH's lack of exclusiveness from the Myspace Silent Hill group I visit. In that topic one girl mentioned that Walter's ranting about the red devil coming to kill him meant that Walter was seeing pyramid head. She finished by saying "So obvious it hurts."

Lost Memories explicitly states that Walter did not see Pyramid Head. Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but in the Sullivan Victim Files we later learn that Jimmy Stone had the nickname "Red Devil". He also had a right-hand man known as George Rosten, a man who had a hand in raising Walter and allowing Valtiel to enter his consciousness. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Jimmy Stone also had a hand in this, being that George and he were close working partners.

So if what the Lost Memories says is true, and Walter did not see PH but bothers to mention that the "Red Devil" is coming to kill him and that "he made me do it!", and we only know of Jimmy Stone being known as the "Red Devil", wouldn't it be logical to conclude that the "red devil" Walter was ranting about was Jimmy Stone?

The girl only replied that she bad read "billions of theories regarding the Red Devil being Pyramid Head and that Jimmy Stone and George Rosten were actually the two Pyramid Heads at the end of SH2.[sic]"

She also said she was "really annoyed" and didn't want to argue over fictional characters. That was all she said in reply. I challenged her to answer my point (mentioned above) or concede, and she conceded.

So while I certainly find it amusing that the leaders of two religious sects would take such an interest in old James Sunderland, I'm upset that she only put forth opposing theories, not bothering to attempt to correct my claims. And I know this would be another point to answer, but by the time of Silent Hill 2 Billy and Miriam Loccaine had already been killed. James had read about their death and Sullivan's suicide. Both George and Jimmy died long before Walter killed those twins. How could they be there with James if they were already dead?

Granted, Jimmy Stone's sect apparently puts him in role of being an executioner, being that they follow Valtiel and all...so her theory might work if their spirits were sent to judge James. But that just sounds like inventing reasons as opposed to looking at the facts (which are admittedly lacking if one wants to think both Jimmy and George took the form of Pyramid Heads to fight James).

[CheezSamich4Hire]

Okay, after playing Silent Hill 2, 3, 4 for a while, I must say that the series is god awful. You do nothing, and nothing happens. It's not scary, it's not fun, and it's boring. All you do is walk around, nothing comes out a jumps at you, the enemy variation is awful, nothing but all show. Just a bunch of blood stained walls and wheelchairs. *hides behind flame shield*

That is all.