Silent Hill Discussion

[Eccles]

so there's been a change of plan with the AMV Im doing.

One will be set to Marilyn Manson - Suicide is painless.

Dunno about the other one (or if I even want to do one) but you never know...

[NoWave]

Alright, try this for a theory.

NOTE: I have only played SH1 from the series. I have read enough spoiler's, plot summary's and theories to know the story of 2. I have no idea where 3 fits in.

I have always thought that the second game occurs before the first

Alright, I'll try and arrange my theory into chronological order.

7 years before the series:

The spirit of Samael is put into the body of Alessa.

In order to counteract it awakening immediately Dahlia Gillespie set's fire to the hospital, burning Alessa alive. The spirit of Samael splits in two and becomes stuck in Harry's daughter, who was getting born in the hospital.

An enemy of the cult (the child's real mother perhaps?) leaves the baby by the roadside for Harry to find.

Harry and his wife find and raise the baby, naming her Cheryl.

Alessa should die from her wounds but is kept alive but comatose by the half spirit of Samael. Lisa is assigned to care for her.

3 days (estimate) before SH1

Lisa is killed by the cult after trying to leave. Alessa is vaguely aware while comatose and has come to think of Lisa as her friend. She senses the death of Lisa and is awakened into conciousness.

As soon as Alessa becomes conscious, she becomes aware of the horrific pain of her wounds. The presence of half of the dark gods powers gives her incredible powers and in the instant of consciousness she rains destruction on the town inhabitants. She spares her Mother and Kaufmann. Her mother was probably portected magically, as for Kaufmann, I have no idea why he was saved. This explains the absence of people in town, the blood and the crack's in the road.

At this point all contact to and from Silent Hill is cut.

At some point over the next few days.

The event's of game 2 take place. These are not the actions of Samael, but rather actions of Alessa. Alessa wants to help people like James who refuse to admit what they have done. She uses the Dark gods power's to invent scenario's when they will admit what has occured. However, because of the evilness of the Dark god's power the scenarios are particularly horrific.

The evening before the day of the first game.

The neighbouring town recognises that all communications with Silent Hill have been cut. They dispatch Cybil Shephard to investigate. She arrives in Silent Hill marginally before Harry does (this is important)

Harry and Cheryl are made to crash by Alessa or Samael manifesting as Alessa (this is hard to tell, I'll explain why)

The first game

Once Harry and Cheryl arrive at Silent Hill Samael is in control of his power's rather than Alessa, who's spirit is cast into the nightmare world (where harry occasionally sees her) Samael didn't take any action before this point because all he was concerned with was getting his other half back.

Once Harry arrived Samael sealed off the exit's (there is an important difference in the way Alessa and Samael use their powers Alessa makes rifts in the ground whereas Samael uses the more Alien concept of walls of nothingness. Cybil arrived a few second before Harry which is how she got in.

It's hard to tell who made Harry crashed because it's hard to tell whether Samael was in control when Harry was on the outskirts of town. If he had been then why was Cybil allowed to arrive.

I also think that Alessa tries to help Harry throughout the first game, leaving the books open and writing on the walls in the nightmare world.

When the game is over Samael is dispatched, Alessa is allowed to die and Cheryl is born again without Samael within her.

That's my idea of what went on in the game.

CONS:

It makes a number of assumptions.

1. That Alessa was a good person and would use her power to help others, as she does in SH2

2. That Samael would allow her to do so while he waited for Harry to arrive.

I can't prove either of these, but I believe them.

This theory could be disputed when I play or research 3.

[Eccles]

>_>

BANG!

Closing shot to my Silent Hill AMV

[StarZander]

Hey, Eccles, how's Adobe Premiere working out for ya?

[Eccles]

As our current convo is proving...

not very u,u

[Shoeless joe]

He was smashed into the TV?

Looks like a gunshot wound to me

And you are correct. Shot from behind apparently. Most likely from Eddie.

AN omen of things to come? Or maybe it's actually a manifestation of James' desire of self-destruction.

I dunno about the conotation of the JAmes look-alike in the game but apparently, according to the same site w/ the pic, the guys at Konami reused the James model so that they didn't have to create a new one form scratch. They figured that they'd get with it since nobody there thought that some bored fan would hack the system for different screenshots. Man, even the guys at Konami look for shortcuts. Makes you think though ...

[Stan Tuna]

I'm learning to play guitar.

Guess which song I'm teching myself to play.

[Eccles]

I'm learning to play guitar.

Guess which song I'm teching myself to play.

Same one as me and chris and Candii

[ifirit]

Silent Hill: Play Novel, Silent Hill 1 & 3 Spoilers

If we knew just whose name was written on the tombstone, we might know more (i.e. perhaps it was Alessa's grave).

The name on the tombstone is given away at the end of Cybil's scenario in the Silent Hill: Play Novel. I won't say it just yet, as I don't understand the whole story.

Alessa is not dead. She is said to be clearly alive in the events of Silent Hill in the Silent Hill: Play Novel. Also, if you notice, the girl in the opening movie to Silent Hill is clearly burned and bandaged, yet she does not look like a seven-year-old girl. If you say she died at age seven in the fire, then why show a teenaged Alessa in both the intro and throughout the game?

Also, many people seem to be confusing the person on the bed as Alessa during the "Drawing Power Conversation." You'll notice that Dahlia (I've been spelling her name wrong ) says, "Everything is going according to plan, sheltered in the womb." The person on the bed is then clearly a pregant woman.

Then a doctor follows, "But, it's not done yet, half the soul is lost. That is why the seed lies dormant." Combine this with the "Mommy Dearest" conversation in the Gillespie residence and you get: "Why didn't I see it before. There's no reason to wait. Herein lies the mother's womb, containing the power to create life. I could have done it all myself." This suggests that Dahlia gave birth to Cheryl (but the father is unknown). So then the pregant woman in the room opposite to Alessa's had to be Alessa's mother, not Alessa herself.

This is reinforced in SH3 during Vincent's conversation in the Alternate Office Building, combined with Heather's feelings about her real name in the Normal Ending. Also, think about Ira Levin's novel, "Rosemary's Baby." The cult next door used an unwilling mother to birth the devil, their "god." Ira Levin being a major influence on the game (Levin St.).

[ifirit]

For those who want to know the name on the tombstone, I'll give you a puzzle to figure it out.

1) Ocean

2) Because

3) Hive

4) Sight

5) ...Levi Ate Her

[Eccles]

I dont get it

(PS: change of tune again. I think I'll have to make more than one ^^; )

[ifirit]

Wanna hint?

I purposely made it confusing, but it's not that hard.

[StarZander]

yes, hint please.

[Shoeless joe]

For those who want to know the name on the tombstone, I'll give you a puzzle to figure it out.

1) Ocean

2) Because

3) Hive

4) Sight

5) ...Levi Ate Her

I got it! It's... It's... Jud Neilson!!!!

[ifirit]

The clues are in order.

[Eccles]

doesnt mean anything.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill: Play Novel Spoilers

Does it?

Alright, for those who don't like to think, here's the answer:

Each clue was actually a word association that then represented a letter.

1) Ocean Sea C

2) Because Why Y

3) Hive Bee B

4) Sight Eye I

5) ...Levi Ate Her E...lev...at...or elevator, the missing part being the "L"

What's that spell?

Also, like the coloring book in the opening movie, the tombstone will change to some mixmash of letters after you beat it once.

[Doulifée]

i graduate that with a hard riddle difficulty level ifrit........

you work for the "there was a hole there company" ?

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 Spoiler

I always thought that had more of a metaphorical meaning rather than acting as a puzzle or riddle. Plus, if my memory is correct, wasn't the glass covered in newspaper?

Usually, a hole represents a void or an empty space. By saying that it is gone now, infers one of two things. Either the void was filled or the void was covered. How you look at it can represent a certain philosophy on the matter.

By taking the side that a hole can be filled, you might believe that problems can be fixed and that just because you lose something or are missing something doesn't mean it's gone forever. So, you might think that James actually does get to be with Mary again and that he can be forgiven for his crimes.

Or by taking the side that the hole is only covered up, you might believe that somethings can't be fixed, that you're stuck with the consequences and that the only way to cope is to block out the pain. Though it is the more pessimistic (sp?) approach, it may have a deeper meaning for James, since he starts off denying his wife's murder.

Still, from either position, there are still multiple roads you can take to read into more. Though I try to have a more optimistic approach in life, I tend to pick the covering-up philosophy in James' case.

[StarZander]

Hmph, I really don't like being ignored. Nobody commented my theories...

[Night10194]

Me neither, Starzander...but that doesn't mean they didn't read 'em. Cheer up, friend.

[ifirit]

Silent Hill 2 & 3 Spoilers

I thought about that too, about her hanging upside down and stuff. The tarot card The Hanged Man (which is one of the cards used in SH3 to open to final door) is a card of a man hanging upside down. Although the hanged man is on a cross, Mary's "cross" could be her hospital bed perhaps. If you look at it, it resembles a metal hospital bed, without a matrass(spelling?) and such.

Quoting from a site with a description of its meaning:

"The Hanged Man often refers to taking time out for spiritual searching, perhaps using "unconventional means" of searching. It involves changing directions or perspectives. There is an element of waiting involved and sometimes sacrifice. It can indicate a Rite of Passage, an initiation or a transition. The card has sometimes been called the card of the Dying God. The Hanged Man means listening to your inner self, sometimes even when it seems to go against logic. It means looking at things in new and different ways. It also indicates unconventional behavior. It is a time of being alone often and reflects the need to withdraw from time to time in order to recharge or regroup your inner energies."

This is offering some very good insight into the meaning of Silent Hill 3. I mean, you've gotta admit the plot to the sequel was very easy to follow, but it was hard to tell if there were any deeper connections than the obvious. Yet, looking at the relevance of the "Hanged Man" card, I can make some better theories and connections.

Silent Hill 3 was the only game to seriously look at religion from the follower's perspective and not a by-standers or historian's. The focus just seems to be about Claudia's search for love, since it seems she was not shown much. Her only real source of love, affection or whatever you want to call it came from the seven-year-old Alessa. Claudia just wants her back, sort of the same way Laura wants Mary back.

Though I can see some ties with SH2, I think the tarot card is more relevant to the plot or philosophy of SH3. Once I sort everything out, I'll report my findings.

Now, I see several similarities here, with SH2. (Also they had several references to hanged men in the game) I don't have time to interpret all of it at this moment, but maybe you can to it for me. But the card being the card of the Dying God, could be referring to remains of Samael's power perhaps? He is dying, since the encounter with Harry, but he linguers in Silent Hill still.

I don't think the "Dying God" part refers directly to Samael, but more towards the Older Gods mentioned in the "Lost Memories," "Crimson Book" and the various files around the town. Remember, there are other gods like Lobsel Vith, the yellow god and Xuchilbara, the red god. ("God created beings to lead people in obidience to Her... many gods and angels.")

You're also right about the many references to hangings in SH2, so I understand the idea of being upside-down. Yet, the references all have the person hung right-side up. Maybe a better explanation is the skewering form of execution. Remember how Maria dies the last time before the end? She is hung upside-down in the "skewering cage" (not sure what else to call it) and then speared by one of the Pyramid Heads, a formal execution in the Toluca Prison. And, when you fight the demon form of Maria, she is still in that same cage and position. Also, if you notice after the Pyramid Head fight, there is no body or sign of Maria's death.

I believe that there is some significance of the bed as Maria's final form, seeing as how it was Mary's murder site. Yet, I don't see it as the only source of influence. Though, we can tell the art designer's were trying to pick a scary design for the final boss, maybe they also played on some hidden fears in James. Maybe James had an aversion to things that were hung upside down. Maybe he was afraid of bugs, which could explain the use of swarms and the scorpin-like tail. Maybe James had some experience with the scewering form of excusion, causing an emotional scar that Maria exploited. I'm not saying that James was executed, even in that manner, but that maybe he had some contact with it in the past and it manifeasted here.

Wait! I just thought of something. Since I think Maria's final form looks like a form of execution performed in the Toluca Prison, Maria's form may represent the idea of being executed. Mary had been sick for a long time and towards the end had accepted that fact that she was going to die. So, she was just waiting for death. Then, James took her life in a short, but exection-like manner. (Note that he tucks her in, fluffs her pillow, and kisses her on the forehead before he smothers her.) It causes him a lot of pain later that he did this and especially so in the hotel. By taking the form of being executed, not only earlier in the game, Maria is trying to exploit his pain about being a murderer. She was just conveying the thing he regretted most.

There was talk of the Hanged Man card also had alot of connections with water. Don't see any connections with the game here, except for maybe the lake, and the In Water ending.

"Astrologically, the Hanged Man is connected to the planet Neptune, and there are some obvious and clear connections between the two. Some of the negative traits of Neptune do not normally apply to the Hanged Man, however. The color of the Hanged Man is blue, the musical note is G sharp, the Hebrew letter is Mem, meaning water or waters (such as an ocean). The Qabalistic Intelligence of the Hanged Man is Stable Intelligence. (This really seems like a strange choice to me. I would not characterize the Hanged Man as stable at all.) Other attributions of the Hanged Man are the concepts of reversal and the suspended mind. The Esoteric Title is the Spirit of the Mighty Waters. The Hanged Man is on the 23rd path of the Tree of Life, between Hod and Geburah. Robert Wang calls this card the path of baptism into the Maternal Water. He also says that it is a path of "eternally unresolved possibilities. It is openness without beginning or end."

Neptune is often the great dissolver; Neptune is also sometimes the planet of transcendental ecstasy, and that fits as well. Neptune rules the sign of Pisces (Moon card), and I can see the connections between the Moon and the Hanged Man. The Hebrew word that corresponds to the Tree of Life path that the Hanged Man is on, is Mem, meaning water or waters. I think that both Neptune and the Hanged Man are each more closely related to Mem, water, than they are to each other, but the entire connection seems to work quite well here."

Another interesting connection to water: the one reference to Metratron I was able find related to Tarot about the Ace of Cups, which represents a cup that flowed a fountain of water, similar to the "Holy Grail."

I don't recall the other tarot cards that were used in SH3, except for the priestess. Could someone check up on these?

The other four cards were the "Priestess," the "Fool," the "Eye of Night," and the "Moon" cards. The numbers on the cards may also have some significance. They are II, 0, XXII, and XVIII respectively. The number for the Hanged Man is XII.

[StarZander]

I love you, ifrit.

I checked up on the Eye of Night tarot card, since it doesn't really exist in any tarot deck of cards. But the only thing I could find, was a book called "The Eye of Night", where the main character is a female magician. I will quote some stuff from a review:

The Troubles coming down from the North threaten to engulf the world in chaos. Even time and reason seem frayed to the breaking point. Jereth, disillusioned ex-priest of the Rising God and sole survivor of a shipwreck, finds his own life the perfect mirror of a world spiralling toward catastrophe. He has nothing; he has nowhere to go. But then one night he meets two mysterious women, a prophet and a fool, each with her own secrets. They involve him in a quest to save the world from death by traveling into the heart of the Troubles, bearing a talisman of night. He follows them without really understanding their quest – for their dark vision gives him his first glimpse of hope. But what can three penniless vagabonds, unarmed and unprepared, do about forces that threaten to crack the world?

Magic is alive in the world but it has insignificant affect on the troubles in the North. Kingdoms are at war with one another; plagues sweep the land; and earthquakes destroy whole cities. The weather plays havoc on the crops; drought is common; and the cattle dies from extreme thirst. The people in the North are traveling but that will do them no good because the troubles accompany them southward.

Three people on a quest are moving against the trend by heading northward. The mystic Hwyn, the beautiful simpleton Trenara, and the former priest Jereth follow the instructions of the Sky-Raven's Egg. Hwyn knows that the Eye of the North is readying itself to give birth and that it could mean the death of civilization or something quite wondrous.

THE EYE OF NIGHT is a beautiful epic fantasy starring three protagonists chosen by the gods to play a pivotal role in the rebirth of a world. Readers will be surprised to realize what these roles will be but it is all tied together in a way that makes sense. This is Pauline J. Alama's first novel but with the talent she displays with this strong tale, the audience will realize there will be more forthcoming. Just having patience to wait will prove nerve wracking.

And then some things about the main character and her main adversary:

Inner Struggle Yes

Plotlet: - search for identity/new understanding - coping with mental/magical powers

Sound like Heather?

Main Adversary

Identity: - natural phenomena - Male

Hmm...

I also found it mentioned here, if you search for eye of night there. Don't know what it means though. But I think the Qabalah is the book used to inerpret the tarot cards, but it says here Book of Numbers.

Perhaps the locations of the five cards in SH3 has some meaning. I will quote from a faq, the location and description of the different cards, that you could read in your inventory:

Item Name: "Moon" Tarot Card

Location: On the table in the Library of the Church, 1F.

Description: Found this in the archives. I don't think it's an expecially good card.

Item Name: "High Priestess" Tarot Card

Location: On the bed in Claudia's room in the Church, BF.

Description: Didn't this card mean something like "Genuine Belief"?

Item Name: "Hanged Man" Tarot Card

Location: On the gurney in the morgue in the Church, BF.

Description: This was in that morgue-ish place. It's such a pitiful card.

Item Name: "Fool" Tarot Card

Location: Inside the book in the hospital room in the south hallway on BF.

Description: This was in my old room... in a hospital room. What did this one mean again?

Item Name: "Eye of Night" Tarot Card

Location: On the ledge behind the altar in the Chappel on 1F, Church.

Description: Found this in the chapel. Is this a real tarot card, though?

There. Can you make something out of this?

[Night10194]

Hmmm...the idea of the execution of Maria/Mary is interesting. Very interesting. After all, remember how you end the battle? James taking one last shot/whatever to finish off Maria/Mary? I'm not exactly sure how that fits in, but especially with execution in mind, finishing the battle execution style would seem to have some significance.

WAIT! If it's Mary, than he's doing what he did before. She is down, she was causing him great pain, he wants her to be gone for good...so he finishes her off AGAIN. As Maria says "You killed Mary again?". Maybe that's what Silent Hill has been trying to get him to do, if it can't kill him. It's making him re-commit his crime, but accept it this time and leave with his 'reward', Maria. Notice how she coughs at the end? Perhaps the town is going to repeat the whole cycle again, with Maria this time...?

If it's Maria, he has decided to cast her off. He doesn't want to leave it to doubt whether or not he's destroyed her, he wants her dead and gone so he can move on. That's why he has to kill her and make certain of it: He wants to destroy the town's influence on him the same way he tried to sever his tie to Mary when she caused him pain. Only, this time, it more represents a rejection and a severing of a tie that didn't really exist yet. A rejection of everything the town brought out in him, so that he can move on.

I dunno, that's a bit odd, the Maria part...but I think that Mary idea is pretty solid.

[Sentora]

Well so far I've seen all my questions answered but one: Does the radio have some importance as well other than a radar? There was that freaky Trick or treat show in the elevator in part two and it's been in all three games...