Schwaltzvald Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Well he was doing it for a profit but 10 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 well, there goes most of the population of afterdawn's forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level 99 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 The "for a profit" thing is where I would draw the line. Personal tinkering in order to open the possibilities and coding potential of hardware would be, in my opinion, completely okay to do. To CHARGE people money to modify their systems, especially just to play PIRATED copies of games is what the core issue is. That's a two-fold argument: to charge people money to modify their systems in order to just play pirated games. I don't believe I actually OWN a console until I've opened it's full potential. But not for piracy. Example: the XBMC program for a soft-modded xbox turns microsoft's aging last-gen console into an HD-possible (source material and tv connection depented) network media powerhouse. So instead of just letting that system die, it now has a brand new use. Maybe it's just me on this, but yeah, that's how I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwaltzvald Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 The "for a profit" thing is where I would draw the line. Personal tinkering in order to open the possibilities and coding potential of hardware would be, in my opinion, completely okay to do. To CHARGE people money to modify their systems, especially just to play PIRATED copies of games is what the core issue is. That's a two-fold argument: to charge people money to modify their systems in order to just play pirated games.I wont lie, I have a ton of modded consoles. I don't believe I actually OWN a console until I've opened it's potential. But not for piracy. Example: the XBMC program for a soft-modded xbox turns microsoft's aging last-gen console into an HD-possible (source material and tv connection depented) network media powerhouse. So instead of just letting that system die, it now has a brand new use. Maybe it's just me on this, but yeah, that's how I feel. That's all fine and dandy but at most he's no different that the very same people that wished to "unlock the potential" of any console; considering it's inferred in the article (from my perspective at least) that modding consoles, regardless if it was done free or for profit, is recognized as an illegal action. Am I mistaking the wording as such..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt E. Waldman Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Agreed, Level 99! With modding, there's so much awesome user-created content to be played with. Years ago, I thought it was so cool that I could have my GBA play MIDI files and run emulators! When it comes to this whole modding business, I'm a bit mixed on the issue. I may be against modding for personal financial gain, but I would be more than willing to have a shop mod my own console for me, mainly because I don't trust myself with opening up my older consoles and installing the chips myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwaltzvald Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Agreement with Lvl99 Read my previous statement please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramaniscence Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 While I was reading this earlier, something dawned on me: When I buy something. I own it. It's MINE. I can buy a computer, I can rip all the parts in, I can put new parts in, I can throw it down the stairs, I can do whatever I want. When I buy a car, I can change the exhaust, I can rebuild the engine, and I can import another engine from Japan and drop it into my car, I can drop it, I can paint it, I can give it scissor doors. I can mod my TV, my laptop, my furniture, my house, my vehicles, my clothing, my appliances...but I can't mod my console? Why the fuck not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt E. Waldman Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Read my previous statement please. Haha, sorry, looks like you posted right when I was writing mine! An interesting point. I do agree that the most of those people started off amazed at the ability to run unsigned software on their consoles, and decided to make a business off of it. Once again, I'm very mixed on this subject. In agreement with Ramaniscene's post, I believe that we have the right to play with, destroy, dismantle, and enhance our own property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwaltzvald Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Another note* PS3s are region free, meaning you can play imported PS3 titles, beyond modding it to play PS2 games what else could one possibly do to it that would result in criminalizing some one of modding one..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 That's all fine and dandy but at most he's no different that the very same people that wished to "unlock the potential" of any console; considering it's inferred in the article (from my perspective at least) that modding consoles, regardless if it was done free or for profit, is recognized as an illegal action. Am I mistaking the wording as such..? This is true, but in a way its in the same vein as (go with me on this) teenage drinking, its illegal, but as long as its done in a setting where it doesn't bring harm to anyone else AND NO ONE SEES IT, no one gets in trouble. So if i mod my xbox and then keep it to myself and use it for my purposes, no one is going to seek me out, or find out most likely. Its when he goes and sells them to people that it becomes trouble for him. While I was reading this earlier, something dawned on me:When I buy something. I own it. It's MINE. I can buy a computer, I can rip all the parts in, I can put new parts in, I can throw it down the stairs, I can do whatever I want. When I buy a car, I can change the exhaust, I can rebuild the engine, and I can import another engine from Japan and drop it into my car, I can drop it, I can paint it, I can give it scissor doors. I can mod my TV, my laptop, my furniture, my house, my vehicles, my clothing, my appliances...but I can't mod my console? Why the fuck not? Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level 99 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 This also boils down to a number of other arguments: independent developers having a chance to break into the industry without having to sign to absurdly high-priced development kit contracts, playing import games and backups of games you have that are either in really bad shape or destroyed (I bought the NiGHTs PS2 remake and it's Japan-only, and I have a PS3 without PS2 support, so I had to get a flip-top case for my PS2 to allow NiGHTs to even work. I don't see why I'd have to invest in a whole other system to play a single game! and my original PS1 copy of ehrgeiz is in terrible shape, so I made a backup of it ages ago and use that instead of causing further wear and tear on a disc that is extremely hard to find these days and possibly doesn't even work anymore) and full hardware utilization. The online functionality of systems these days deters and prevents hacking, cheating, and piracy in a number of ways, and advanced copy protection (note how the PS3 has not yet truly been mod-broken) prevent many attempts of illegal piracy. However, there is a line that needs to be drawn between detering illegal action and crippling a system's hardware and software potentials. I'm in agreement with Rama in that "I buy it, I own it, I should have the freedom to do what I want with it" with the caveat that it does not interfere with other people's enjoyment of anything. I log onto xboxlive with a trainer giving me infinite lives and noclip, that's messing with people's enjoyment. I log on either running a backup of a game that I own already, or have unlicensed media code so that I can have subtitles in foreign AVI's running a codec that xbox didn't initially support, that should be within allowable limits. The guy that's going to jail was also probably selling pirated software on the side, or providing means to access it for the people he modded consoles for (just an assumption, but it's within reason). Simply modding a console should not merit that punishment though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strike911 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 The article says: Specifically, the college student is accused of modifying for personal financial gain technology affecting control or access to a copyrighted work I think this isn't so much an issue of modifying the console as it is preventing the sale and proliferation of illegal copies. I don't think modifying you own stuff can possibly be illegal if you're using it for lawful purposes like playing homebrew games or games with region locks from other countries. But where does that stop? How on earth do you prove that without having proof that illegal copies are being used as a result of his modifications??! What if I put new CD burner and Nero on someone's computer, and charge for it. The original computer's set up has been modified for a profit, and burners could affect control or access to plenty of copyrighted works! Uh oh, plenty of people running computer building companies are off to prison! What a ridiculous law. That law is silly. Yeah if he's doing things to promote illegal activity like helping pirates copy things or selling copies, then yeah arrest him and toss him into jail, but the government is pinning him on just modifying the console which also has plenty of legal applications. What others do isn't this guy's fault, again unless he's actively promoting illegal activity (and lets be honest he probably is). But physically modifying an electronic device should not be illegal just because it doesn't make sense. You can't control other people's intent. I hacked my cell phone so I could put custom ringtone midis on it. Theoretically one could put illegally downloaded MP3s on it if one really wanted. If I modified someone else's phone for a profit am I'm suddenly in trouble? That's ridiculous. The person committing the offense should be in trouble, not the modifier. XBMC (like mentioned above) is a fantastic utility for hacked Xboxs. I never used it on an Xbox (there's a PC version), but I could definitely see a legal use for the app on modified systems. Are they really going to toss someone in jail that could do that? *sigh* ... But the physical act of modifying the console for a profit is what they're going after. This is too much intervention from the government over something that should not be illegal because its legal for hundreds of other devices that cause MUCH more damage in the piracy world including PCs with CD burners, DVD burners, etc. Where does the term modify stop? Man this bugs me... again, if he's involved in the piracy scene then go get him Uncle Sam, but from what I can tell they don't mention it in the article. Where does modification start? Where does it end? Again, I would bet this guy is heavily involved with the piracy scene... this situation can't be the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwaltzvald Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 I think this isn't so much an issue of modifying the console as it is preventing the sale and proliferation of illegal copies. I don't think modifying you own stuff can possibly be illegal if you're using it for lawful purposes like playing homebrew games or games with region locks from other countries. This guy definitely must have been selling (or deeply involved) in the illegal copying of games. I was under the impression that he was often hired by legal owners of consoles that paid him to mod said consoles and that's all he did. Another major note* Last May, ICE agents executed a federal search warrant at Crippen's home, where they seized more than a dozen Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony video game consoles. No mentioning of selling pirated software (game copies) though, and I doubt the guy broke into shops and stole the consoles. To me it seems like all the ICE agents found were his backlog of mod orders. To me this is still saying that modding consoles, regardless if its for profit or free, is considered illegal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strike911 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 I was under the impression that he was often hired by legal owners of consoles that paid him to mod said consoles and that's all he did.Another major note* No mentioning of selling pirated software (game copies) though, and I doubt the guy broke into shops and stole the consoles. To me it seems like all the ICE agents found were his backlog of mod orders. To me this is still saying that modding consoles, regardless if its for profit or free, is considered illegal... That's just ridiculous of the government. Anything can be "hacked" today and open up plenty of additional legal functionality to a device (though it might void your warranty). Be it a GPS, a phone, a computer, or a game console, they all usually have the capability to store data. And if one can store data they could possibly store illegal data. One could theoretically put illegal data (mp3s, software, etc.) on a lot of hardware that has been modified (again, a new CD burner on a PC)... anything.... but that isn't the modifiers problem. How can the government determine what people are using this storage for? How do they prove piracy has occurred because of this guy's mod service? It just doesn't make sense to me. It's a ridiculous avenue to pursue this guy from. It's a ridiculous law in general. It theoretically could make a case for anyone that's ever built a PC for money, that has a cd burner on it, subject to legal action. If this guy has a decent lawyer I bet he could get off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramaniscence Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Is it illegal for a gun shop owner to sell modified rifles or hand guns that MIGHT be used to potentially kill someone? (well...yes and no) Can I re-sell a sharpened kitchen knife set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strike911 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Can I re-sell a sharpened kitchen knife set? NO GO TO JAIL! lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar of Justice Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Is it illegal for a gun shop owner to sell modified rifles or hand guns that MIGHT be used to potentially kill someone? (well...yes and no)Can I re-sell a sharpened kitchen knife set? Yes, but copyrights are obviously more important than human lives. Obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faustt Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Kinda funny to be reading this today. Last week I bought a red ringed xbox 360. I "modded" the console to fix an underlying hardware issue. If I go to jail for fixing the console for personal use then that's messed up. lol. Also while looking around for a RROD xbox I found dozens of people locally charging to fix and hack Xbox 360s. The going rate was about 30-35 bucks. I guess these guys should be watching where/what they post (this was on craigslist btw). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shael Riley Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 What the fuck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PassivePretentiousness Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 While I was reading this earlier, something dawned on me:When I buy something. I own it. It's MINE. I can buy a computer, I can rip all the parts in, I can put new parts in, I can throw it down the stairs, I can do whatever I want. When I buy a car, I can change the exhaust, I can rebuild the engine, and I can import another engine from Japan and drop it into my car, I can drop it, I can paint it, I can give it scissor doors. Not if you to drive it on public roads. Ever heard of emission controls? Or safety inspections most states require? I can mod my TV, my laptop, my furniture, my house, my vehicles, my clothing, my appliances...but I can't mod my console? Why the fuck not?There are laws regulating many of these... are you aware of zoning laws? The FDA (companies cannot freely sell you their property)? OSHA (companies are regulated in using only approved ladders and a few million other things in the workplace)? There are certain substances out there that are not dangerous in and of themselves, but are still illegal or require a license because they could be mixed in a way to produce explosives or drugs. Further, and much more analogously, although I think those examples completely belie your point already, it's illegal to steal cable. There's nothing unique about this law. There are plenty on the books that regulate your behavior (especially as a business) in the creation of goods which directly encourage illegal actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeCrusher Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 I think the biggest thing is, these consoles are being modded for more than likely illegal use. Could you mod your tv, laptop, or anything else? Sure. The only two things that could be put in relation to illegal would be a laptop, which has way more purposes though than console, and any mods you make would not go around a copyright section, or a car, which if you want to argue the whole "its mine and i can do whatever", it could be argued that if you modded cars to say, be used for illegal activies then yes, you could be charged. Anyway, yeah, modding a console is bypassing a system set up to run copyrighted material, its a pretty cut/dry case on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulinEther Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Well he was doing it for a profit but 10 years? Dude, this guy went to my school. I should have hit him up for my .. ... wait, ... that... yeah. Unfortunately modding is not done solely for the purpose of playing illegal copies of copyrighted games. Since it does give purpose behind unlawfully copying games etc, though... it's completely illegal. Just like creating / distributing code that can decrypt the video files on DVDs even if you just want to use it to make personal copies of the movies you own. It can lead to the distribution of said working, decrypted copies to people who don't own a right to the material. Therefore that code is illegal (or at least distributing it is). Just because it's the law doesn't mean this doesn't annoy me. But what can we do as a minority? And for this guy's case, it's possible he won't get all 10 years, but... if it's ICE... he runs the risk of getting deported, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Kinda funny to be reading this today. Last week I bought a red ringed xbox 360. I "modded" the console to fix an underlying hardware issue. If I go to jail for fixing the console for personal use then that's messed up. lol.Also while looking around for a RROD xbox I found dozens of people locally charging to fix and hack Xbox 360s. The going rate was about 30-35 bucks. I guess these guys should be watching where/what they post (this was on craigslist btw). I actually provide that service myself, and I have (and still am) advertising that service on a thread here at OCR. I believe the mod the CSUF student got arrested for is the DVD firmware mod which allows you to play backups (euphemism lolol) of your games. If he got arrested for fixing 3RL errors then he'd be able to get off easy because it's the exact same thing as fixing, for example, your laptop for faulty hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeCrusher Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Yeah, they can't convict you of fixing red rings. Two of the local game shops here in knoxville advertise they fix them. So yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwaltzvald Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Repairing is very different from modding... One is meant to repair the product to function as originally made to. The other allows a product to perform beyond its original means of operation such as homebrew/using "backup" copies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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