DragnBreth Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Okay. It's me again. So apparently MIDIs are a big no-no here, eh? Oh well. I was hoping for some feedback on that. So about this remix. This is an orchestral remix of one of my favorite themes from Final Fantasy IX, and maybe one of my all time favorite game themes. When I first found OCRemix.org, this theme, plus the Legend of Zelda Theme and Gerudo Valley, was what I first looked for, and I think I downloaded every remix of the theme at the time. Okay, so, this remix is orchestral, and very much influenced by soundtracks like Star Trek, and Star Wars, and the like. Its also a bit of a test of an orchestral VST which I recently got my hands on. So far I'm liking it. If 'Ride of the Hero' gets a No (resub) then I might just redo it with this VST. Any suggestions, constructive critisisms, and comments are welcome. Stuff I'd Like to Do: - On the last runthrough of the 'chorus' (B section of the source?) have a choir voice (or a series of real recorded voices) go along with the melody. Maybe a future collab post... - er... Thats it really. As always, Enjoy! Version 4 ---------- - Once again attempted to humanize the instruments a little more - Changed out the intro with something... simpler... Crap, imo, but I don't know what else to do - Changed the outro - Added more reverb - Altered the harp section to be more... harpish... - Tried to make the solo cello suck less - Altered the final iteration of the second half of the original tune Version 3 ---------- - Instead of using the Solo Cello Vibrato, I changed it to plain-ol' Solo Cello, and manually set the vibrato to kick in after a certain amount of time. I'm hoping this at least makes it sound better than before, although it will never compare to a real Cello. - Changed up a few parts (hope you hear 'em. Let me know what you think) - Tweaked the Eq some more. Hope it helps. Version 2 ---------- - Tried to make it less mechanical (emphasis on 'tried'... not sure if I succeeded) \- Tried to give some parts a more ebb and flow feel - replaced the corny cornet with a solo cello and Eq'd it forward more cause it wasn't very audible - tried to make the strings less exposed - Added some vibrato to the strings. hope it helps. note: wasn't sure where (besides the intro) the strings were too drawn out, and as far as the intro goes... I haven't the foggiest how to make it more realistic. *shrug* Any tips or suggestions on that front would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabond23 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I really enjoyed this remix even though i'm not too familiar with the source theme. FFIX is probably one of the only FF games i never played before. I'll post a detailed critique of it when i get more time probably tomorrow or tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulinEther Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I only know of this source because of Kate's excellent vocal remix of it, but I'd say this certainly holds my interest. You could work on perfecting the sound you're getting with that VST: some things that should sound a little more legato sound unnatural, and I think the dynamics aren't where they should be (I feel things need to be louder in general). I have to hear the source to give you any sort of structural criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emunator Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Yeah, the sound you're getting out of the VST you're using isn't terrible, but it might take some work to get it to OCR standards. The strings are decent but exposed a lot of the time so they show their weakness, but your solo brass particularly sounds like a weak point in the ensemble. Everything feels pretty hard-quantized and lacking in personality, though the arrangement itself isn't bad. It's just a lack of expressiveness in your instruments that kinda drags this mix down. Sometimes you hit points where you sustain your strings for way too long, as well, which sounds unrealistic. Look through your mix and try to identify some of these issues; this song certainly isn't a lost cause by any means, but there's a lot of compounded issues that will likely keep it from passing the OCR panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 First off, thank you Emunator. [...] it might take some work to get it to OCR standards. [...] Look through your mix and try to identify some of these issues; this song certainly isn't a lost cause by any means, but there's a lot of compounded issues that will likely keep it from passing the OCR panel. Yeah, it is by no means complete and I fully intend on working on it more. I just needed some feedback to get me started in the right direction. The strings are decent but exposed a lot of the time so they show their weakness [...] Exposed... erm. My ignorance is sometimes embarrasing, but how do you mean? And how would I go about fixing this problem. [...]but your solo brass particularly sounds like a weak point in the ensemble. Bummer. I kinda thought it sounded cool. Shows you how much I know. So the course of action I should take on this is... new brass vst/soundfont? new instrument? Would EQing help with this, or is it just an unrealistic sounding cornet (which is the instrument it's supposed to be, lol)? Everything feels pretty hard-quantized and lacking in personality, [...] It's just a lack of expressiveness in your instruments that kinda drags this mix down. Oh... I'm... not sure what do do about this. Sometimes you hit points where you sustain your strings for way too long, as well, which sounds unrealistic. Understandable. I'm guessing you're refering in part to the intro. I know in a real orchestral setting where you have a dozen or more strings all playing at once you can have the players trade off reestablishing a prolonged note... I'm not sure how well that'll work in a sequenced setting, but I'll work on it. Obviously mixers like Nutritious and Random Hero are able to pull it off, so its not impossible, lol. --- I really enjoyed this remix even though i'm not too familiar with the source theme. FFIX is probably one of the only FF games i never played before. I'll post a detailed critique of it when i get more time probably tomorrow or tuesday. Thanks jabond Glad you like it. But... never played FF9? This must be remedied! --- I only know of this source because of Kate's excellent vocal remix of it, but I'd say this certainly holds my interest. You could work on perfecting the sound you're getting with that VST: some things that should sound a little more legato sound unnatural, and I think the dynamics aren't where they should be (I feel things need to be louder in general).I have to hear the source to give you any sort of structural criticism. Her mix is pretty awesome. Again, forgive my ignorance, but which parts should sound more legato (smooth and connected; without breaks between the successive tones). I've included the definition for the sake of clarifying that I have the correct understanding of the word. Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHsXNkI1rfA --- To everyone, my thanks and appreciation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbu Frahma Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 I'm really loving this take on one of my favorite pieces of VG music, Dragn. The only criticism I can really give is to echo what some of the other OCR members have already said and to point out the sound of the solo brass doesn't sound right, as well as some of the strings. Definitely can't wait to hear this in its finished version! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emunator Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 If I were you, unless you can find a very good brass VST/sample, I would just scrap that and write in a different instrument. A good brass is hard to come by :\ By exposed, I mean that it's dead-center stage, loud, and there's not enough covering up the weakness of the sample itself. Reverb might fix this, or simply EQing it back a little bit or writing in new instrumental parts to mask the flaws somewhat. The key with sampled instruments is to make them audible (obviously a sample that you can't even hear is going to do you no good) but do what you can so that the sample quality is not a distraction. I'm not really sure how to un-quantize something, but for example, adding more noticeable vibrato to your strings or tweaking the velocities your instruments play at might help here. (I'm at school now so I can't listen to the actual mix, so if my memory of the remix is spotty and you've already done any of this, I apologize.) For a rough sketch though, this honestly isn't too bad You've got some great potential, so work with it! Maybe someone like Nutritious or Archangel can come in with their symphonic expertise and give you some more specific pointers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 If I were you, unless you can find a very good brass VST/sample, I would just scrap that and write in a different instrument. A good brass is hard to come by :\ Point taken. But alas the B section (where the cornet kicks in) kinda needs that umph of a brass instrument, otherwise it just sounds horrible. I'm not sure what to do with it at the moment. I may just have to rewrite the entire section... By exposed, I mean that it's dead-center stage, loud, and there's not enough covering up the weakness of the sample itself. Reverb might fix this, or simply EQing it back a little bit or writing in new instrumental parts to mask the flaws somewhat. The key with sampled instruments is to make them audible (obviously a sample that you can't even hear is going to do you no good) but do what you can so that the sample quality is not a distraction. Hmmm... thats odd. The violins are panned to the left and the violas to the right, along with the bassier strings. I tweaked the 'Stereo Enhancer' to further distinguish the panning. Hope that helps. I'm not really sure how to un-quantize something, but for example, adding more noticeable vibrato to your strings or tweaking the velocities your instruments play at might help here. Problem I'd face with this is if I add the vibrato to, say, the violins, it'd affect the violins throughout the song... and with this particular vst I can't automate the vibrato . I am, however working with the velocities to give the song more personality, so to speak. I just hope it works... For a rough sketch though, this honestly isn't too bad You've got some great potential, so work with it! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted May 4, 2010 Author Share Posted May 4, 2010 New version is uploaded and ready for listenin'. Hope I've made some improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulinEther Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 The string (cello I think) at 1:37 sticks out; its vibrato is unrealistic. if you can control the vibrato manually, try to humanize it a little more - it should probably progressively attain a more subtle, slightly random (but even... if that makes sense) vibrato - almost like a tail at the end of the note. compare it to Fallen Dragoon by AeroZ - granted, that's a real cello performance (several layers really), but you can get an idea of what kind of vibrato you're looking for around ~0:18. sorry, i have been ....... somewhat busy. somewhat scattered. should have responded earlier. when i was discussing "legato" i just meant that successive notes played by certain instruments didn't bleed into each other sufficiently to sound smooth/natural, but I'm noticing some of that's been cleared up. I'm really rusty on my orchestral sounds (i've yet to seriously dabble in them myself), but the tuba/brass/thing at ex. 1:50 sounds much improved from how I remember it... though its timbre is a little off - it doesn't sound...completely real. I don't know what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted May 4, 2010 Author Share Posted May 4, 2010 The string (cello I think) at 1:37 sticks out; its vibrato is unrealistic. if you can control the vibrato manually, try to humanize it a little more - it should probably progressively attain a more subtle, slightly random (but even... if that makes sense) vibrato - almost like a tail at the end of the note. compare it to Fallen Dragoon by AeroZ - granted, that's a real cello performance (several layers really), but you can get an idea of what kind of vibrato you're looking for around ~0:18. Unfortunately the vst I'm using does not allow automation of the vibrato Otherwise, I totally understand what you're getting at. Mayhaps slight variance in the pitch and volume will attain said effect? Hmmm. Something to test. So should I back off on the Cello a little? I wanted something with the punch of a brass instrument (or a distorted guitar, lol) and I figured the cello was my best option. But when I switched out the cornet for the cello, it wasn't loud enough, to I kinda EQ'd it forward a bit. Maybe a little too forward? lol. sorry, i have been ....... somewhat busy. somewhat scattered. should have responded earlier. when i was discussing "legato" i just meant that successive notes played by certain instruments didn't bleed into each other sufficiently to sound smooth/natural, but I'm noticing some of that's been cleared up. I'm really rusty on my orchestral sounds (i've yet to seriously dabble in them myself), but the tuba/brass/thing at ex. 1:50 sounds much improved from how I remember it... though its timbre is a little off - it doesn't sound...completely real. I don't know what it is. O.o don't listen to real orchestral, lol. I did that today and now my stuff seems pithy in comparison, lol. Kinda wish I had a real orchestra at my disposal, lol. That'd be nice. The legato bit is good to know. Something to listen for on my next round of editing. As for the brass ensemble (yeah, just a generic brass ensemble setting within the vst): a little off you say? Hmm... I'll give it a listen again, esspecially at that part, and see if there's something I can do about that. Thanks for the comments, SoulinEther! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabond23 Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Ok, first, you really like being thorough with your responses, lol. Just kidding man, i know your just looking for some good advice. That and i should play this finally! Maybe when they release it soon on the PSN i'll download it. I know its supposed to be more like classic Final Fantasy. Anyways, this source is really cool. Very moving and melodic. I can tell already that your production is much better. That is one damn long sustain on those strings right in the beginning. I like how your incorporating different and new orchestral elements into your works. One big thing i notice is that there is a BIG lack of any low end, bass, sound to this track. One easy fix for that is to add just a simple bass track and have it follow the general chord progression. It doesn't have to be too powerful, but it can help bring together key parts and help strengthen the track. Go to my reverbnation page and listen to the Uprising (Downfall Pt 1) track. Its a short orchestral track but has the example that i'm talking about. You could even take an full orchestra vst and tune it down an octave or two. That'll add some bass too. Really i'm just nit-picking cause everything else sounds great man. Its a great arrangement and you can hear the source very clearly. Looking forward to you next update! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted May 4, 2010 Author Share Posted May 4, 2010 Ok, first, you really like being thorough with your responses, lol. Got that right, XD... but yeah, most of it is just to clarify or comment on what someone has suggested. Other than that, I figure its good to acknowledge people's contributions. Maybe I just spend way too much time in the customer service field, lol. That is one damn long sustain on those strings right in the beginning. Lol, I'm workin' on it. One big thing i notice is that there is a BIG lack of any low end, bass, sound to this track. Odd. I do have a C-Bass in there as well as some lower brass parts, but I guess its not being heard. I'll play around with the EQ on it and see what I can do about it. Really i'm just nit-picking cause everything else sounds great man. Its a great arrangement and you can hear the source very clearly. Looking forward to you next update! Considering I'm working on this as an OCR submission, being nit-picky is good. The judges will go over it with a fine toothed comb. Anyway, thanks, jabond. PS, no need to go to your Reverbnation page; Abbadon now resides on my iPod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted May 31, 2010 Author Share Posted May 31, 2010 Okay, after a lot of time of being lazy (what can I say; I'm good at it ) I finally have an update! I kinda went into a bit of a "watch Stargate or write" mode... mostly watched Stargate, though. Aaaaaanyway... I hope it shows some improvement over the last update. I'm personally not entirely happy with the cello, but am not quite sure what to do about it. I'm still considering a possible collab to add a choir to the last runthrough of the chorus. Dunno if that'd help or hurt the piece, though. Anywho, enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViRiX Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Hm I've not heard the original, but it's pretty good. I'd also echo what some said about the strings... that's not completly your fault though... Someone mentioned the lack of expensiveness in your VSTs... and yeah, there are some VERY GOOD ones.. but they are also kind of expensive. Maybe you answered this and I missed it, but what VST are you using to get these sounds? I don't know what your budget is but if you really enjoy creating orchestral mixes, East West has a library that is a pretty good price of 200 dollars. It's called East West Quantom Leap Symphonic Orchestra Complete Silver Edition... ok that's a LOOONG name I know (EWQLSO Silver Complete for short), but it has some great sounds for what it costs. I did a small review on it if you wanna check it out. Ok I know I strayed off topic and I didn't mean for that to be an advertisement or anything... just letting you know what's out there. But yeah I like your instrumentation and set up and mixing as well. Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Thanks, ViRiX. I have looked into EWQLSO in the past, and I've heard people's music who have used it, and I love the sound. Sadly $200 is too much for me at this point. Everything I currently use has either been free or given as a gift. So for the moment, I'll have to use what I have and hope it doesn't kill me in the judging process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutritious Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Quick review: Intro is pretty sudden and breaks into some pretty exposed sustained notes. I'd say consider writing something a bit more grabbing for the listener, or at the very least, gradually bring in the notes and move them dynamically back after the initial hit. Samples are nice, but need more work to make them more believable. Brass sounds very rigid when first coming in especially. Need to vary up some more velocities. Maybe even consider pushing things back a bit more in the soundfield with some reverb to mask it more. Sounds better with the string stabs coming in with the brass. The harp is pretty far forward and also feels on the rigid side. I'm not feeling that cello lead. It's upfront and very exposed - this sample just can't carry it. It might be written a bit high on the register as well, but I'm not sure there. I think you'd have to somehow mix in some more legato slurs to get away from the rigid note changes. I think the cello is the biggest offender, production-wise. Those low string (cellos?) stabs can work, but need some major variation on the velocities as well. Right now they're very robotic sounding. Consider layering in some other string stabs to vary it up. On the arrangement side, I like how you've handled the themes and varied it up between parts and instruments. I think the main problem here, though, is you've cut and pasted these same sections later in the song with little (if any) variation. I think this could benefit with a more subdued section to give some contrast to the general feel - it also gives more opportunity to expand on the melody in a totally different way. Also, if you do want to repeat a section, vary it up enough so it keeps the song fresh. Finally, consider modulating some of the melodies at times to personalize it a bit. Overall, this is definitely on its way there and I can tell you've put some work into this. Keep at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Hah freaking awesome. I'd hope the panel could look past a couple mechanical brass parts -- they've looked past some mechanical stuff in the past... Ziwtra's FF8 mix comes to mind... I think the arrangement is very well done. The sounds aren't all as high-def as people would hope for, but they've also barely got any reverb on them. You could give that a try. Randomize the velocities a bit as well. That should help a bit. Great take on this song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Thanks to both above. Appreciate the feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Bump... again... Version 4. Not sure that there's much else I can to with it. Honestly I'm liking this version the least as compared to the last 3. I do like the new outro better, though. But the intro is not nearly as epic (imo) as the first one and the cello just sounds like crap. So here's a question for ya's: should I look at collabing with someone who posseses a better cello sound, or maybe even a decent brass sample? 'Cause I seriously doubt I'm gonna get much better outta this VST than what I have already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I could run it through EWQL SO Gold for you but if I were you I wouldn't offer that as a collab. I mean, it's not like I would be doing any work. Just send me the MIDI notes and I'll slap it in and make it sound normal. Then you can submit it to OCR or try to get it on the FF9 project or whatever you wanted to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuketheXjesse Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 This song's already been claimed for FF9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 It sure has, and Josh made a great wip for it. You'd have to ask Fishy if he'd allow another version of the song on the album, but considering how largely different they are (and Fishy's want to have more orchestral on there) he'd probably allow it... Worth a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragnBreth Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Thanks, Brandon. I may just take you up on that offer, but I'll wait and see if there are any more suggestions regarding composition, etc, etc, that I need to address first. But, yeah, I'ma just sub it when its done. As LuketheXjesse pointed out, You're Not Alone is already claimed, lol. Edit: Just saw the above post... Hmmm... It could be worth a shot. Buuuuuut it could present a bit of a delema for Fishy. I mean, if (big if) he accepts mine despite the track already being claimed, then he'd probably have to accept other doubles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Thanks, Brandon. I may just take you up on that offer, but I'll wait and see if there are any more suggestions regarding composition, etc, etc, that I need to address first.But, yeah, I'ma just sub it when its done. As LuketheXjesse pointed out, You're Not Alone is already claimed, lol. Edit: Just saw the above post... Hmmm... It could be worth a shot. Buuuuuut it could present a bit of a delema for Fishy. I mean, if (big if) he accepts mine despite the track already being claimed, then he'd probably have to accept other doubles... I don't think we ever had any plans against accepting doubles... I guess I could talk to him about it since he did sort of say he would listen to my suggestions from time to time, since I was the original directator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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