VGM in timesigs other than 3/4 and 4/4

[djpretzel]

I think if the task is to be undertaken, at least for now, it should be done communally. How about a shared googledocs spreadsheet with pertinent categories? That way, everyone can contribute as long as they adhere to the entry format. Trying to keep something like that organized in the OP of a thread wouldn't be the best way to go about it at the moment.

Categories:

* Game Name

* Song Name

* Link to source tune/chiptune

* Time signature (if multiple, include in order of occurrence within the song)

* Other game info (if the game isn't in the OCR database yet): Release Date, Publisher, Game System (Include this regularly if the game has releases on multiple systems with differing soundtracks), Composer

How does that sound?

Sounds good to me but how do you lock that down? Invite anyone who asks?

[Level 99]

Sounds good to me but how do you lock that down? Invite anyone who asks?

Maybe combine Gario's approach with my own: have a stickied site project thread, built on a shared doc that's administered by a few people. People post in the stickied thread if they have a few to add to the list, while those who want to do more long-term editing and researching get edit access.

[Fratto]

[djpretzel]

Maybe combine Gario's approach with my own: have a stickied site project thread, built on a shared doc that's administered by a few people. People post in the stickied thread if they have a few to add to the list, while those who want to do more long-term editing and researching get edit access.

Yes, this. Can you start the gdoc? Most importantly, if possible, we should try and prioritize songs that are already on OCR as part of our database, so we'll need a column for OCR song URL.

[EC2151]

Holy moly, I never thought about it till now, but Marx's theme from Kirby Super Star goes all over the f-in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltLvric4HQE

7/4, 5/4, 6/4, etc...

[Gario]

Alright then, we'll do a common document file of it, then, and have a thread for those that want to contribute? As long as there are common rules for contribution (common format, common language, etc.) I'm sure people on the site could be quite helpful, overall (giving the meters of tracks and even entire soundtracks, if they're up to it, and pointing out possible errors in the tracks).

When I say 'common language', I mean use some sort of standard when listing time signatures. No 'Common Time' or 'Cut Time' for example - these can easily be replaced with '4/4' and '2/4', respectively, without losing too much meaning. If the numerator is higher than '5', then the denominator will be '8' (There shouldn't be a '5/8' or '7/4' - they'd be '5/4' and '7/8', so it'd be easier to compile into the tagging system). That Marx song would be considered a general 'Mixed Meter' - there's just no practical way to approach a song with that many changes otherwise. There's a bit more to it than that, but that's a start to a system to work with.

Level 99 already presented a standard format to present the tunage in the thread, so we could stick to that, for the most part (although finding the source shouldn't be mandatory, and the handling of multiple meters would be nicer if simplified, like I suggested above). I could do the Megaman soundtrack + FF series soundtrack real quick, if you want a place to start your doc, Level 99.

And yes, that Marx track is really insane.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Alright then, we'll do a common document file of it, then, and have a thread for those that want to contribute? As long as there are common rules for contribution (common format, common language, etc.) I'm sure people on the site could be quite helpful, overall (giving the meters of tracks and even entire soundtracks, if they're up to it, and pointing out possible errors in the tracks).

When I say 'common language', I mean use some sort of standard when listing time signatures. No 'Common Time' or 'Cut Time' for example - these can easily be replaced with '4/4' and '2/4', respectively, without losing too much meaning. If the numerator is higher than '5', then the denominator will be '8' (There shouldn't be a '5/8' or '7/4' - they'd be '5/4' and '7/8', so it'd be easier to compile into the tagging system). That Marx song would be considered a general 'Mixed Meter' - there's just no practical way to approach a song with that many changes otherwise. There's a bit more to it than that, but that's a start to a system to work with.

Level 99 already presented a standard format to present the tunage in the thread, so we could stick to that, for the most part (although finding the source shouldn't be mandatory, and the handling of multiple meters would be nicer if simplified, like I suggested above). I could do the Megaman soundtrack + FF series soundtrack real quick, if you want a place to start your doc, Level 99.

And yes, that Marx track is really insane.

I didn't read your post

BUT YOU JERK

YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO ME WITH YOUR MAVERICK THEME IN 3+ DIFFERENT TIME SIGNATURES (if we get paired up, that is)

[Gario]

Only if you compete with me, yes. Think about what I have to do, though - possibly translate EVERY possible candidate I get to 13/16 (or vice versa... but what's the fun of that?). So yeah...

Stop whining . I had to pick it 'cause it's awesome, though - it has little to do with the meters.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Only if you compete with me, yes. Think about what I have to do, though - possibly translate EVERY possible candidate I get to 13/16 (or vice versa... but what's the fun of that?). So yeah...

Stop whining . I had to pick it 'cause it's awesome, though - it has little to do with the meters.

But you're (and I quote Willrock) a theory nuthead.

I'm not.

[Level 99]

Yes, this. Can you start the gdoc? Most importantly, if possible, we should try and prioritize songs that are already on OCR as part of our database, so we'll need a column for OCR song URL.

Will start it up tonight and include a column for that.

Alright then, we'll do a common document file of it, then, and have a thread for those that want to contribute? As long as there are common rules for contribution (common format, common language, etc.) I'm sure people on the site could be quite helpful, overall (giving the meters of tracks and even entire soundtracks, if they're up to it, and pointing out possible errors in the tracks).

When I say 'common language', I mean use some sort of standard when listing time signatures. No 'Common Time' or 'Cut Time' for example - these can easily be replaced with '4/4' and '2/4', respectively, without losing too much meaning. If the numerator is higher than '5', then the denominator will be '8' (There shouldn't be a '5/8' or '7/4' - they'd be '5/4' and '7/8', so it'd be easier to compile into the tagging system). That Marx song would be considered a general 'Mixed Meter' - there's just no practical way to approach a song with that many changes otherwise. There's a bit more to it than that, but that's a start to a system to work with.

Level 99 already presented a standard format to present the tunage in the thread, so we could stick to that, for the most part (although finding the source shouldn't be mandatory, and the handling of multiple meters would be nicer if simplified, like I suggested above). I could do the Megaman soundtrack + FF series soundtrack real quick, if you want a place to start your doc, Level 99.

And yes, that Marx track is really insane.

Sounds good, I'll link you when the doc has been created and we can start the thread.

[EC2151]

I can't quite place the time sig of Snake's Remains, from Oracle of seasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWaXgUYAFm0

I have a feeling sometimes that it might even be arhythmic at parts.

[Solaphar]

Sounds like 6/4 to me.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Sounds like 6/4 to me.

There's either 3/4 or 6/8.

[Solaphar]

Ah, you're right. There were 4 measures of 6/8 from 0:27 to 0:33. The part before that was 6/4.

[prophetik music]

There's either 3/4 or 6/8.

nope. common misconception, though. 6/8 is a triple meter, with a basis on a group of three eighth notes, where 3/4 is a duple meter, with a basis on a group of two eighth notes.

6/4 is a duple meter, implying a measure of 4/4 and a measure of 2/4, alternating consistently. it isn't always, but often that's what it means. when it's representing two measures of 3/4, it's usually used to imply a triple feel - meaning, each downbeat of each measure of 3/4 feels like one macrobeat in 6/8.

i can't listen to soliphar's track at work, though, so i can't weigh in.

[Kanthos]

I'd say this is in 3/4, and each note in the track is a 16th note. You could, I suppose, write the B section as 6/8, but with the accents being where they are, it doesn't really lose the 3/4 feel either. I wouldn't change time signatures just for two bars when the notes still fit nicely into the old time signature.

[anosou]

Utau Oka ~Harmonics FRELIA~ from Ar Tonelico II. Filled with goodness.

[Gario]

Since this thread is still getting traffic, when you guys find out the meter of a track, please post the information for it here. I'm going to cover as much as I can on my own time (which'll hopefully be pretty significant), but if I'm alone on it it'll take an eternity to finish.

Gimme your time signatures, NAAAAOOOOO!

[Solaphar]

I'd say this is in 3/4, and each note in the track is a 16th note. You could, I suppose, write the B section as 6/8, but with the accents being where they are, it doesn't really lose the 3/4 feel either. I wouldn't change time signatures just for two bars when the notes still fit nicely into the old time signature.

I think the note accents strongly imply that every two note gets a beat, rather than every 4. So, I'm pretty sure those are 8th notes around 113 bpm.

Also, the bassline, especially the long notes at 0:20-0-25 (and subsequent loops), also seems to imply 6/4, rather than 3/4.

Here: Midi + Sheet Music using 6/4 time

Might not be enough to convince you , but perhaps you'll at least you'll give more thought to the possibility of 6/4.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Solaphar

[Gario]

nope. common misconception, though. 6/8 is a triple meter, with a basis on a group of three eighth notes, where 3/4 is a duple meter, with a basis on a group of two eighth notes.

6/4 is a duple meter, implying a measure of 4/4 and a measure of 2/4, alternating consistently. it isn't always, but often that's what it means. when it's representing two measures of 3/4, it's usually used to imply a triple feel - meaning, each downbeat of each measure of 3/4 feels like one macrobeat in 6/8.

I feel I should correct this just a touch. While 6/4 exists in a very real sense (for example, when a song using 4/4 switches to 6/4, for the sake of keeping the meters clean), and while it's certainly a duple meter, if an entire song is in 6/4 it could easily reduce itself to 3/2... which can further simplify itself to 3/4, if the tempo is cut in half and the notes are all half duration (which also often has the same downbeats/upbeats as 6/4, except it works in quarter/eighth notes, not half/quarter notes). So really, 6/4 shouldn't need to exist on it's own in a piece - 3/4 is easier for the performer to read, it's easier to represent groupings and accents on paper (barring eighth notes together is incredibly effective in showing accents) and it's far more conventional.

Just sayin'.

Listening to the track. I personally would say it's in 2/4 with a 3 beat hypermeter (with a quick change to 3/4 toward the end of the track for a few measures), but for the sake of simplicity it's either in 6/4 or a very slow 3/4 (because of what I just said, I'm opting for the latter, here).

Edited November 2, 2010 by Gario

[Solaphar]

I feel I should correct this just a touch. While 6/4 exists in a very real sense (for example, when a song using 4/4 switches to 6/4, for the sake of keeping the meters clean), and while it's certainly a duple meter, if an entire song is in 6/4 it could easily reduce itself to 3/2... which can further simplify itself to 3/4, if the tempo is cut in half and the notes are all half duration (which also often has the same downbeats/upbeats as 6/4, except it works in quarter/eighth notes, not half/quarter notes). So really, 6/4 shouldn't need to exist on it's own in a piece - 3/4 is easier for the performer to read, it's easier to represent groupings and accents on paper (barring eighth notes together is incredibly effective in showing accents) and it's far more conventional.

Just sayin'.

Listening to the track. I personally would say it's in 2/4 with a 3 beat hypermeter (with a quick change to 3/4 toward the end of the track for a few measures), but for the sake of simplicity it's either in 6/4 or a very slow 3/4 (because of what I just said, I'm opting for the latter, here).

I hate to be overly critical, but... time signatures don't work that way. They're not mathematical fractions where the numerator and denominator can be multiplied and divided to achieve an equivalent result. They can only be reduced depending upon whether it's compound time or simple time.

It can't be hypermeter because the bassline rules that out (it clearly delineates measure ends and beginnings). Same with why 3/4 wouldn't work.

The tune use a 12-note ostinato, we know that much. Also, even if you don't consider the bassline (like if you mute it), in just the melody alone, you can hear how the Eb hits deliberately on the 3rd and 4th beats (ruling out 3/4).

Please listen to this midi of the first 8 measures of the melody. I've removed every other note, so instead of 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &, etc. it's just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Reducing it a 6-note ostinato instead of 12, where each of the 6 notes occurs on a beat. So, I think the melody clearly represents a 6/4 figure.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Solaphar

[ella guro]

I hate to be overly critical, but... time signatures don't work that way. They're not mathematical fractions where the numerator and denominator can be multiplied and divided to achieve an equivalent result.

Honestly, I don't understand how it can be heard as anything other than 6/4 and 6/8.

It can't be hypermeter because the bassline rules that out (it clearly delineates measure ends and beginnings). Same with why 3/4 wouldn't work.

The tune use a 12-note ostinato, we know that much. Also, even if you don't consider the bassline (like if you mute it), in just the melody alone, you can hear how the Eb hits deliberately on the 3rd and 4th beats (ruling out 3/4).

Please listen to this midi of the first 8 measures of the melody. I've removed every other note, so instead of 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &, etc. it's just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Reducing it a 6-note ostinato instead of 12, where each of the 6 notes occurs on a beat. So, I think the melody clearly represents a 6/4 figure.

I gave the song a listen and I agree with this. I'd just count the whole thing in 6/4 but I suppose it is easier to switch 6/8 for that second little section.

[Solaphar]

I gave the song a listen and I agree with this. I'd just count the whole thing in 6/4 but I suppose it is easier to switch 6/8 for that second little section.

Yeah, I thought it was all 6/4 at first too, but then I realized the last 4 measures before the loop have more of a triplet feel, hence why I'd think 6/8 to be more appropriate. Also, 6/8 separates it into 4 measures of repeating rhythm, intervals, and direction, (rather than only 2 measures with 6/4).

Edited November 2, 2010 by Solaphar

[ella guro]

Yeah, I thought it was all 6/4 at first too, but then I realized the last 4 measures before the loop have more of a triplet feel, hence why I'd think 6/8 to be more appropriate. Also, 6/8 separates it into 4 measures of repeating rhythm, intervals, and direction, (rather than only 2 measures with 6/4).

You could really count it either way, but you'd probably count it as 6/8 just to make it easier to count, yes.

[prophetik music]

I hate to be overly critical, but... time signatures don't work that way. They're not mathematical fractions where the numerator and denominator can be multiplied and divided to achieve an equivalent result. They can only be reduced depending upon whether it's compound time or simple time.

i was going to say this, for a different reason. 6/4 can be reduced to 3/2 - if the piece clearly is in a duple and would benefit from the simplification. like i said, though, 6/4 usually represents a compound meter, not just a large 3/4.