VGM Rap (or vulgar rap-hate) thread (split from MM4 'Get a Weapon Weapon' reviews)

[JackKieser]

I was just explaining why, exactly, I don't consider Internet debate a waste of time, is all. An actual reason was a better reply than just posting " Nuh uuuuuuhhhhh!!!11 >_<", basically.

Oh, also forgot to explain, my picking-apart post style comes from Smashboards. That's just how they post, and much of my debating is done there, so I picked up the style. Sorry if it's a pain to read sometimes, but it's a very accurate way to respond to posts, point by point.

[CC Ricers]

Rappers, particularly ones like those listed above, cannot put themselves in chains. They cannot stop promoting a gangster culture that things it's not only ok, but satisfactory to do or sell copious amounts of drugs and kill other people, sometimes for as little as having better lyrics than you. If they can't put themselves in the chains, I'm afraid it's up to the rest of us to do it for them.

News flash- music on the radio more often than not try to sell you a fantasy, not a reality. Because the reality is too dull for record companies to catch a lot of people's attention. The problem lies in misguided people thinking that the fantasy is real, and usually, very attainable.

[Hulk Hogan]

Apply this to rap. Writing a song isn't illegal. Talking about drugs or murder isn't, either. But what happens when you start yelling that it's ok to (and sometimes, that you should go out of your way to) do as many illegal drugs as you can and kill police officers if they bother you? And what happens if the person doing the yelling is a respected music artist with millions of followers and a boatload of money? Someone who says he does those things and is also rich and successful?

The Hulkster loves gangsta rap almost as much as he loves America so to quote the great Ice Cube, you better chickity-check yo self before you wreck yo self.

Here in America, we believe in freedom of expression except in very specific cases and gangsta rap songs with violent lyrics is no where near one of these cases. As a musician, the thought of some pinko commie government official telling me what songs are ok and not ok to write makes me sick and if I wanna write a sequel to Cannibal Corpse's Fucked With a Knife my ancestors died in the dirt fighting the English, the Native Americans, and the Mexicans so that I could keep that right.

Because once you ban gangster rap having bad lyrics, death metal is next no doubt. Then people are going to look towards violent video games as they glorify doing horrible illegal things to people almost exclusively so no more Call of Duty, Quake, Metal Gear Solid etc. etc. After that, why not movies? Sorry, you can't be trusted to watch Scarface, big daddy government knows whats best. I DON'T THINK SO, me and my millions of Hulkamanics would run wild all over Washington before I let that happen.

tl:dr version for you kids that didn't eat your vitamins, scarface is a great song/movie and stop trying to tell me your art is better than my art

[JackKieser]

Wait, so you're telling me that rich, successful music artists DON'T do drugs? And that rap culture isn't one of the most, if not the single most, violent cultures in music? How many gospel artists have been involved in shootings? Soul? R&B? Classical? Fuck, rock and heavy metal artists aren't involved in as many gang shootings as rap artists are.

Rap artists being violent and doing drugs isn't a fantasy; it's quite the reality.

[Arek the Absolute]

i fucking seriously love it when jackkaiser posts

every single one is fucking gold

[DCT]

Rap artists being violent and doing drugs isn't a fantasy; it's quite the reality.

It's true; I'm actually doing drugs this very moment.

[JackKieser]

And I love getting into philosophical debates with members of the OCRemix forums.

Every single one is filled with non sequitur attacks on my character, instead of arguments that actually counter the ones I make. Seriously, it's getting old, all of this hate just because I'm not a regular member of the community. So I don't make Remixes or post often; doesn't mean I'm not making a valid point.

@above: It's a matter of statistics. Does every single rap artist do drugs or shoot people? No. But name the music genre that has more news stories about drug offenses or violent acts than rap. Again, it's not like I even have to do hard research on this; do a Google search for "rap shooting", and you'll get tons of news articles about various rappers being shot or shooting other rappers.

[DarkeSword]

And I love getting into philosophical debates with members of the OCRemix forums.

Every single one is filled with non sequitur attacks on my character, instead of arguments that actually counter the ones I make. Seriously, it's getting old, all of this hate just because I'm not a regular member of the community. So I don't make Remixes or post often; doesn't mean I'm not making a valid point.

@above: It's a matter of statistics. Does every single rap artist do drugs or shoot people? No. But name the music genre that has more news stories about drug offenses or violent acts than rap. Again, it's not like I even have to do hard research on this; do a Google search for "rap shooting", and you'll get tons of news articles about various rappers being shot or shooting other rappers.

If you're trying to make an argument based on statistics, do the "hard research."

[JackKieser]

That's what I'm trying to say, though: the problem is so bad, it's not even necessary. Yes, if I was writing a formal paper to present to a Senate sub-commitee, I would do the hard research, but for an informal internet debate, I don't even need to do it, because even the most rudimentary, common-sense information supports my point.

Seriously, do a Google search. Look it up. It's disgusting. You don't even have to look deep or hard. Fuck, two of the genre's most prolific rappers were killed by gang violence! Do I need to cite that source?

[The Vagrance]

Every single one is filled with non sequitur attacks on my character, instead of arguments that actually counter the ones I make. Seriously, it's getting old, all of this hate just because I'm not a regular member of the community. So I don't make Remixes or post often; doesn't mean I'm not making a valid point.

Hey, I tried to have a decent conversation but a lot of your accusations are based on minimal evidence. Great, you've provided a list of songs that mention drugs, but you haven't shown anything that links the existence of these lyrics to a raise in crime rate. You seem to be arguing with crazy scenarios that can't really be directly addressed:

[QUOTE]You know, because dealers only sell the drugs to the inner city kids who are getting badly influenced anyway.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]But, again, try controlling a kid who is constantly high and/or owns a gun that he got illegally. There comes a point to where locking your kid up is the only option, and that's no option for a kid.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Try saying that to the victim's families of gang warfare, or the parents of some 17 year old inner city kid who thought it was fine to OD on crack.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]\Times change. Rappers, particularly ones like those listed above, cannot put themselves in chains. They cannot stop promoting a gangster culture that things it's not only ok, but satisfactory to do or sell copious amounts of drugs and kill other people, sometimes for as little as having better lyrics than you. If they can't put themselves in the chains, I'm afraid it's up to the rest of us to do it for them. [/QUOTE]

I've given up trying because I don't even know what you're arguing for anymore. Complete censorship of bad rap lyrics? What about bad rock lyrics? It doesn't matter if you find something wrong with a 50 Cent song because you're either advocating for the strict censorship of a particular musical genre while ignoring all others or you're advocating for a rollback to 50's censorship.

Your arguments are full of loaded questions and unrealistic scenarios portrayed as commonplace. That's great that you're a Philosophy major, I'm a History major so if you're going to advocate the shackling of an artistic movement there'd better be some damn good evidence in your favor.

[JackKieser]

*sigh* Ok, let's run through this one more time.

I've already said that restrictions on content could work, but would be impractical. After all, there are content restrictions on nearly every art form already... just, most of them are from internal ratings boards, instead of the government. It could work, but it'd be really hard.

What I'm more concerned about here is the general "fuck it" attitude that I get from most people concerning the subject matter of rap music, and yes, I do mean in particular. Music is a big part of my life, and of my family's life (multiple of my family members are musicians, and 8 years of choir gave me the deep appreciation for music I have now), and so I've been listening to as much of it as I can for most of my life. Rock can be bad sometimes (especially metal), but NOTHING I have ever heard comes close to the level of lyrical violence or drug promotion than rap; as I said before, it's what made me stop listening to it.

The problem I see is that not only do most general listeners of rap not care, but the artists themselves don't either! The best comparison I can make is that of the Catholic Church. My grandparents are Catholic, and not once have they spoke out in protest of priests who rape kids. They are a member of a society that commits atrocities, and not only do they not care, they accept it as commonplace and let it continue!

Rap gets away with a lot of shit. What other musical genre has the history of rampant violence and drug use that rap does? Especially with no repercussions? Personally, I can't understand why ANYONE would want to be a part of it. But, here we have a whole subculture who can literally sit back and watch fellow artists OD and kill themselves, or shoot each other in gang warfare, and not once, not a single time, do I see, hear, or read about a large or significant portion of the culture standing up and saying to their fellow artists "we aren't going to tolerate this sort of behavior anymore."

Where is the activism? Where is the responsibility? With whom does it lie? And, if you're a rapper, how many times have you protested gang violence? Drug use? How many times have you told your culture to better itself? To clean up?

Why allow it to continue? What's the point? I'm constantly told that rappers write about what they know. Ok, so right now, they know violence and drugs. But, is that a good thing? Should your fellow rappers, especially ones in poverty or hooked on drugs, stay like that? Should young rappers continue to experience those horrors, those atrocities? And, again, how many rappers start foundations for inner city kids, or rap about how they COULD have bought another Escalade, but instead donated the money to charity?

Are you getting the message yet? The point? DCT says, sarcastically, that he was doing drugs when he posted, which means, I assume, that you rap. Do you realize that you're responsible for what the members of your culture do by associating with them? Again, how many rallies have you hosted, or charities have you given to, or events have you participated in to clean up rap culture? Because if the answer is anything less than "a lot", you're doing every rapper you are associated with a disservice.

And that goes for everyone who LISTENS to rap, too. Part of why I don't listen to rap is because I don't want to financially support drug habits and gang killings. Even the Indy scene. I don't want to have anything to do with it. And you shouldn't, either. I don't care if you really, really need music to dance to. Would you buy music if you knew the proceeds would directly fund terrorism? Then, why would you give money to a culture that promotes and engages in rampant violence and drug use?

Everyone is responsible for this, and yet, no outrage. It's ridiculous.

So, Vagrance, my point is that you'd have to be purposefully disillusioning yourself to think that rap, as a CULTURE, doesn't have serious problems, and yet no one cares. I see rock concerts for freaking Africa, and yet there are no large rap concerts even for their own internal problems. It's all "I need to get money for my drugs" and "man, look at how nice my Escalade/spinning rims/necklace is". When will people who care about rap music start caring about the people who make it?

[RDX]

Every single one is filled with non sequitur attacks on my character, instead of arguments that actually counter the ones I make.

I haven't seen a lot of that, actually.

Philosophy major or not, your arguments are weak as anything.

[Mirby]

I've skimmed the arguments here, and to be honest, your arguments are as weak as wet paper.

Also, generalizing an entire genre and those who sing it based on the few who are most famous for it is never a good idea.

[JackKieser]

Hey, if they're weak, so be it... but you know, it takes counter-argument to find that out, not just saying they are.

...just sayin'.

[Mirby]

And you've gotten it. I've agreed with the counter arguments, and repeating them would serve no purpose.

[KyleJCrb]

Internet arguments: THEY'RE SERIOUS BUSINESS.

I'm not really sure even who Jack is arguing with anymore. He's just writing long-winded overblown posts directed at nobody in particular.

[JackKieser]

Dude, you have NO IDEA how serious sometimes.

EDIT: Hey, you changed "The internet" to "Internet arguments". Not cool. Either way, yeah, the internet can be serious business. See: the extent to which the internet is having an effect on political outcomes, i.e., 2008.

EDIT2: Man, I'm still surprised there's not ONE PERSON so far who thinks that the rap community could use some cleaning up through member-oriented activism. I mean, not ONE. Maybe it really is just the "fuck it" attitude of the boards, because when I discuss this with people IRL, I at least get a few people who think the culture could use a bit of work.

[The Vagrance]

So, Vagrance, my point is that you'd have to be purposefully disillusioning yourself to think that rap, as a CULTURE, doesn't have serious problems, and yet no one cares. I see rock concerts for freaking Africa, and yet there are no large rap concerts even for their own internal problems. It's all "I need to get money for my drugs" and "man, look at how nice my Escalade/spinning rims/necklace is". When will people who care about rap music start caring about the people who make it?

It does have problems, but the problems won't be solved by censoring the music, they can only be solved by fixing the root problem which is the unfortunate fact that blacks have disproportionately higher crime rates and poverty levels. The art is a reflection of that, and going "boo rappers" isn't going to incite them to act but rather to ignore your message.

And to completely ignore all rap music because a couple of songs talk about drugs is seriously short-sighted. You admit you stopped listening to rap a long time ago, especially indicated by your examples of 50 Cent and Lil' Jon as mainstream, try picking it back up again. Myself and others (Ramaniscence comes to mind) have already dropped names of good, insightful rappers, don't their contributions mean anything? At the moment all of your criticisms sound like someone who heard a 60 Minutes report about violent rap music and who's life has never been the same since.

[JackKieser]

Well, that's because I have a very "zero-tolerance" policy when it comes to things that can be influenced financially. This is supposed to be a "capitalist, free-market" society, right?

Besides, I can tell from your post that you obviously aren't even READING my posts anymore. I said AT THE TOP, IN THE FIRST FEW SENTENCES that my main point of contention ISN'T actually censorship. It's activism and the community mindset. You listen to rap music? Do you like lyrics with MEANINGLESS violence (not Tupac's meaningful interpretations and presentations, but 50's "I'm going to shoot you, kill your fellow singers, and leave your mangled corpse on the floor") and POSITIVE VIEWS on drug use?

If not, what do you do about it?

If all you do is go, "meh, that's rap", you're a part of the problem. Do you know why social change is brought about by things like boycotts, sit-ins, and the like? Because the people who are acting in a way you want to change don't care in the first place, so you have to get their peers to care, and get THEM to act. Look at civil rights. Blacks didn't get equal treatment by appealing to the bigots. They got civil rights by appealing to the rational people, and when that didn't work, you stopped giving even the RATIONAL people money, so that it was in THEIR best interest to have change, too. Hence, sit-ins and full-spectrum boycotts. Change from within.

You think the people who actually give rap a bad name are going to give a rat's ass about cleaning up their culture? No, because they're either:

A ) too stoned to care

B ) have too much money to care

C ) are too busy being shot at / shooting people to care

(I realize those are oversimplifications. It's for effect.)

So, you know how you get them to clean up their act? Stop giving money to the GOOD rappers, and tell them that they'll get your money when they get their contemporaries to clean up. BAM, that shit gets cleaned up fast.

Like I said, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I'm part of the solution by exercising my capitalist voting power and not buying ANY rap music, and by talking about these problems and starting discussions when possible. I'm doing SOMETHING, which is better than your "lassez-faire", "fuck it" attitude. Again, rap is supposed to be a community, a culture. If one section is corrupt, all of them are, and it's EVERY rapper's responsibility to make sure the problem is dealt with. (So yes, even insightful rapper's contributions are meaningless if they aren't trying to fix the problem)

I'm a gamer; if I found out that MLG was laundering money, I wouldn't go to ANY gaming tournaments, conventions, or events until it was cleaned up. Same here.

And, for the record, I just had a lovely discussion with someone who has been completely impartial about this whole debate so far (because she hadn't been a part of it; I don't know her personally, but my girlfriend does, and she was on FB at the time). She's very indy, likes rap, and is pretty knowledgeable about the Seattle, WA indy rap scene. I asked her 2 questions.

A ) Does rap culture, either mainstream or indy, have a problem with violence or drug addiction? This includes the actual lyrics, as well as the rappers personally.

B ) If so, would rap culture benefit from internal activism, such as rappers holding charitable events to benefit internal problems (i.e., freestyle for inner city education or something), or would it benefit the culture as a whole more to leave all drug / violence problems as it is?

I did not tell her which side I was on, only asked her opinion as a lover and listener of rap music, mainstream and indy. She answered the affirmative on both counts. So, I'll ask more people as I can, but I REALLY just think this forum has an attitude problem, because I can't imagine any other reason a whole board worth of people would say its ok for even a facet of an entire culture to be ok with killing its members and doing illegal drugs.

[The Vagrance]

Besides, I can tell from your post that you obviously aren't even READING my posts anymore.

And you aren't mine, despite their increasing brevity. I did say that rap has a problem, but the people making money from rapping about the problems you describe in a shallow manner don't give two shits about what indie rappers have to say because they're usually in it for the money. Non-mainstream rappers have been hammering the culture themselves, some examples:

[QUOTE]
[b]Saul Williams - Penny For a Thought[/B]
we're performing an exorcism on all this keep it real-ism
violence, sensationalism
in the name of the hip hop that nurtured me, cultured me
we are ordering all evil entities to exit this body, leave this body
in the name of microphone fiends and a young boy's b-boy dreams
we draw you to leave this body, leave this body
all evil entities, all wannabe emcees
decoys, decoys, send in the true b-boys
the true b-boys be men, motherfuckers
be men in the name of Scott La Rock
in the name of T-La Rock
motherfuckers don't remember how to do the reeboks
walk, hop, I told you to leave this body
leave this body, leave this body
I told you to leave this body
leave this body, leave this body
motherfuckers must think I'm crazy
shit, I think y'all motherfuckers is crazy
I want my fuckin' MTV
penny for a thought, nigga, penny for a thought
what the fuck have you bought into?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
[B]Blackalicious - Deception[/B]
[Gift of Gab]
His first single was a overnight success hit (success hit)
And now he went from wearing rags to the best fits (best fits)
All his new acquitances, gassed his head, takin it
To the point where he lost proper perspective ('spective)
Started cuttin off the people he came up wit (up wit)
Ego blown like his soul had been ab-ducted (ab-ducted)
Though his heart was once real, now material has filled
Up his world, and he couldn't get enough of it (get ENOUGH of it)
Used to wanna be the best of the rap dons (rap dons)
Now his only one concern is goin plati-NUM (plati-NUM)
And his skills has since decreased, and the inner hunger ceased
Now content, just as long as fame and cash come (CASH come)
He's a Big Willie now, rappin bout cars (bout cars)
Thousand dollar shoppin sprees, hangin out with stars (out with stars)
I mean just a year ago, he was broke, bummin money
Drinkin out the 40 bottle, livin outdoors

Don't let money change ya!

Laaaaah, di-dah, da-da-dee-dah
Lah-di-dah, da-da-dee-dah [4X]

[Gift of Gab]
Second LP, my rap changes fast (changes fast)
Here today, gone tomorrow, now his label passed (label passed)
Now the new poster boy, with the hip now sound
Second time around everything isn't stable as (stable as)
It once was, now he's lookin for the same hit (SAME hit)
But his sound is played, he forget to change wit (CHANGE wit)
Them old hit rhymes, no one feelin him, his rhymes ain't appealin
Anymore, and his records ain't sellin shit (ain't sellin SHIT)
Now he's dropped from his label, and he's goin broke (goin broke)
Tried the underground return, ghetto pass revoked (pass reVOKED)
And the same faces that he dissed, on his way, to the top
Laughed as they watched him do the downstroke (DOWNstroke)
Now the moral of the story is that some go (some go)
Why would money make the inner vision crumble? (crumble)
So if you're blessed with the talent, utilize it to the fullest
Be true to yourself and stay humble[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
[B]Lupe Fiasco - Dumb it Down[/B]
[Chorus 1:]
You goin' over niggas' heads Lu (Dumb it down)
They tellin' me that they don't feel you (Dumb it down)
We ain't graduate from school nigga (Dumb it down)
Them big words ain't cool nigga (Dumb it down)
Yeah I heard Mean And Vicious nigga (Dumb it down)
Make a song for the bitches nigga (Dumb it down)
We don't care about the weather nigga (Dumb it down)
You'll sell more records if you (Dumb it down)
[/QUOTE]

And these are songs that pop to mind immediately that directly address the problem you're talking about. Again, you must be really unfamiliar with the music industry if you think mainstream artists care about what underground guys are saying about them and will clean up their act in response. If you don't want to support the artists rapping about guns and drugs then don't, but to ignore the entire genre because of a few people you don't like is sad.

[JackKieser]

Ok, giving these guys the benefit of the doubt that they're rapping about the problems because they're musicians and that's what they do...

...how many of them have gone on the news to talk about rap's problems? How many have held rallies? How many have started charities? How many have DONATED to charities? How many have done ANYTHING significant, like testified to the Senate, or started a non-profit, or created an organization, or anything outside of rapping?

Look, they're doing something, and that's better than nothing; they're making an effort, and its obvious that they care. But, seriously here, these are rappers. These are the inside guys. If they can't draw significant attention to even the problems that they are involved with, especially in the 21st century with the internet and the 24hr news machine, they're doing it wrong.

And, hey, if you don't agree with my methods, fine. After all, I have plenty of other genres that I can listen to. Especially thanks to this site. I don't really feel like I'm missing out on that much.

[The Vagrance]

how many of them have gone on the news to talk about rap's problems? How many have held rallies? How many have started charities? How many have DONATED to charities? How many have done ANYTHING significant, like testified to the Senate, or started a non-profit, or created an organization, or anything outside of rapping?

Look, they're doing something, and that's better than nothing. But, seriously here, these are rappers. These are the inside guys. If they can't draw significant attention to even the problems that they are involved with, especially in the 21st century with the internet and the 24hr news machine, they're doing it wrong.

They're not involved with any of the problems, they're bystanders. They're not insiders, there regular shmucks like you and me that happen to make rap music for a living. There isn't a clause when releasing an album that says, "oh yeah, you have to make a charity." Congress doesn't care and rallies are expensive, and if OCR is proof of anything its that most musicians are poor and do stuff in their free time.

Saul Williams made an album produced and promoted by Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails), released either for free for a 192kbps version or $5 (for 60 minutes of music) for 320 or FLAC version and guess how many people actually paid for it.

The answer is about 1/5th of the people actually paid $5 for the album, just under 20,000 people. That's about $100,000 for a year or so of work, not all of which will actually go to him and this is with a big name backing (who called the experiment disappointing). Now, Lupe is lucky and is signed to a major label (which doesn't mean much nowadays, financially), but Blackalicious, along with countless other rappers I could name aren't and make less money than Saul Williams. None of these underground guys are doing it for the money because they're not making much, there are increasingly fewer ways to make a living as a musician and most conscious rappers are on the poor side of the spectrum.

And you're asking these people to be the ones to set up charities and influence the mainstream or testify to senate? Nobody cares about them and the money they get typically allows them to break about even. Hell, Zach de la Roche of Rage Against the Machine, a very popular and influential band was called a "has been" on the news fairly recently, unless your name starts with Ke$ha or ends with Gaga the media doesn't care. Most underground rappers who do what they do is because they love to do it, its for the love of the music. They don't aim to be the moral leaders of their culture nor are they in the position to be.

[JackKieser]

And you know what, that's totally understandable. That's why I wouldn't kick them in the balls if I ever met them on the street, like I would do to about 95% of mainstream rappers. I don't blame them, but, again, if you want to call yourself a member of a culture, if these guys want to call themselves "rappers", then they have to accept the mantle and pedigree that brings with it, good OR bad, and if they don't like it, they have to take as many steps as they can to fix the problem.

I'm a "gamer", and I call myself that regularly. That means I have to accept the mantle and pedigree of Columbine, which many people blame on Doom. I have to accept that people are going to assume (especially if they are on the right) that I'm a trigger-happy nutjob who would rather headshot you than talk to you thanks to all my late night hooker killing. And as a gamer, its my job to re-inform people when they make that mistaken judgment, and its also my job to do my part within the community and outside the community to win hearts and minds. i talk with other gamers (and I've talked to game DESIGNERS, too) regularly about gratuitous violence in games and about the need for more artistic games, and about the need to stop buying piece of crap Wii games, and about a whole slew of other gaming-related social topics. I have to do the same thing to religious nutcases who rag on me because I'm an atheist (and I rag on atheists who don't stand up to fix our own social inferiority complex the same way I'm ragging on these rappers).

There are other ways to be an activist, you know. Or not, because every time I talk about it on OCRemix, someone yells "LOL ACTIVISM". I'm still waiting for Darkesword to post that "LOL JACK KIESER" picture or close down the thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though. ^_-

[The Vagrance]

You're forgetting that some of us just want to live without being bothered by constantly having the prove something, or apologizing for something we're not responsible for. I'm white but I don't feel like I personally need to apologize for slavery, nor do I need to apologize for that crazy Discovery channel dude for being atheist, nor the Columbine shooters for playing video games, etc..

Some of us want to be judged for who we are and not for others' actions who happen to have overlapping interests.

Regardless, I'm going to bed and I'm pretty much done arguing considering you seem to have no intention of budging from your point.

[JackKieser]

Heh, I'm not forgetting anything. I enjoy looking for people to educate about my favorite pasttime, even if the cost is that some people occasionally say bad things about me... T_T [/sarcastic_crying]

But, hey, that's not everyone's cup of tea, and I respect that. But, everyone should be prepared for when what they hold dear is challenged by someone else. I'm lucky, because the group I'm a part of has 2 or 3 bad eggs, but the majority of the facts say that we have nothing to be ashamed of. Rap, unfortunately, doesn't have that bonus. It has a checkered past and enough unsavory individuals to last a lifetime, so if someone goes up to the rappers you mentioned after a show (or when I discuss with you whether rap is responsible or irresponsible with the media power it's given) and brings up that checkered past, or those unsavory individuals, they actually have to DEFEND being a part of a culture like that. Honestly, I feel sorry for rappers with actual good hearts who just love the music... They have to spend their time defending themselves with so little to work with. But, hey, that's the price they pay, I suppose.

Anyway, good debate. I enjoyed it (when it was actually on topic). Hopefully, rap will clean itself up and pick itself up off the floor, as far as musical cultures are concerned. Rap used to be a really honorable genre, and it really does suck, as a lover of music, to see an entire genre degraded because of some perverse love of gold chains and drugs. I really do wish it the best, but I really hope the "fuck it" attitude goes away soon, and the entire culture, listeners and creators alike, start acting a little more responsibly.

It'd really suck if, 50 years from now, rap is still stuck in the inner cities, full of gangs and god knows what else, all because no one cared enough to try to better the community. And I hope people on OCRemix who actually still like rap despite its flaws can use this thread to discuss ways to try to better their community.