Dota 2

[Bleck]

Whether the core gameplay is archaic or not is something that's completely subjective.

not really

[Tensei]

Yeah, you're right. Considering that DotA is still continually being rebalanced and further developed, one could say that the core gameplay is objectively not archaic.

[Nase]

BLECK

once you learn denying it won't bother you. muscle memory and all.

i hated it just as you and mostly just focused on lasthits. i hated lasthitting too, but gold is nice.

seriously i know where you're coming from with this and i would've agreed until about a year ago (when i started getting a clue about hon). this stuff is a bitch to learn, it's fiddly, it doesn't feel rewarding and you'd rather just focus on more important stuff like strategy and ganks and all that.

see, once that stuff is in your muscles, the frustration stops. it'll just be a fun mechanic. you might still dislike it in principle then but you'll stop caring because you'll have too much fun snatching the exp from your enemies.

it is archaic in some ways, but it also creates a kind of learning curve and multitasking challenges you don't see much in games anymore.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Nase

[Tensei]

You can completely ignore denying and still do fine in lower level games because other people probably won't do it either. Same with pulling/stacking neutrals, animation cancelling, warding etc. Hell, you can look at it as a more abstract form of unlocking new runes and masteries in LoL over time; instead of getting stronger through a numeric advantage you improve by learning these 'advanced' techniques.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Tensei

[Nase]

yup, learning dota is a bit like those multitasking flash games where the screen splits every few seconds and a new minigame opens up.

trying to play all minigames from the start will leave you restless and confused. it's impossible. thus, no fun.

once you've played a thousand games though, you'll appreciate all that stuff.

it stops being about all those little separate games. you see the game as a whole because your mind isn't distracted by them anymore.

denying isn't just this little minigame. it's strategy too if you want. pick plague and parasite in hon and you can deny almost half a creepwave before it even reaches the enemy.

lastly, not each and every hero requires every trick in the book to be played decently. while some make a point of forcing you to use certain mechanics (do your stacks with axe), many offer abilities that can balance out possible weaknesses of yours.

poor last hitting? get rampage or deadwood or whatever.

poor sense of positioning? try some of the blinkers/escape artists.

no skills whatsoever? get blacksmith!

it's all fun if you take it slowly and accept that some people are going to pwn the shit out of you because they've taken the time to learn how to do it right.

[Tensei]

http://www.valvenews.net/2011/dota-2-will-feature-cosmetic-items-an-in-game-store/

Looks like hats are back with a vengeance. I especially like the Little Red Riding Hood cloak for Windrunner.

[Dhsu]

http://blog.dota2.com/2011/10/twice-the-blood-shall-i-shed/

They’ll also use text chat to indicate their plans, so you can join in. For example, they’ll:

• Let you know when they’re coming to your lane for a gank.
  
• Communicate when they’re fleeing or losing a fight.
  
• Indicate their high priority targets in upcoming team fights.
  
• Expose their thinking about whether they should push or defend their lanes.
  
• Call for assistance versus Roshan if they think the timing is right.
  

I think this officially makes bots smarter than 90% of pubs.

[Tensei]

Yeah the bot AI looks sophisticated as hell. Great to see Kunkka and Bloodseeker making it in too.

[Dhsu]

I was updating StarCraft II the other day when I noticed...

Hmmmmmm....

[Tensei]

It only just hit me that the Dota 2 logo is supposed to represent the two bases and the river.

[Dhsu]

Oh snap! That's awesome!

Edit: Looking at the map now, the river doesn't seem to actually run from or to anywhere. So is it technically a lake?

Edited October 19, 2011 by Dhsu

[Hawkwing]

Oh snap! That's awesome!

Edit: Looking at the map now, the river doesn't seem to actually run from or to anywhere. So is it technically a lake?

It could run underground? Haha.

[The Derrit]

i was watching some of the character profiles on youtube today and this looks better than i originally remember seeing, maybe just seeing it broken down made it make more sense. stuns and other debuffs are more accepted which is kinda cool so instead of one being gamebreaking, most people have CC that's kind of refreshing

[Tensei]

The models/voices on the three new heroes are pretty amazing. Really happy with how Queen of Pain turned out cause Wretched Hag was one of my most-played heroes in HoN.

[zircon]

Speaking of QoP, apparently if you try to blink beyond your max blink range, you only go 4/5 the distance? What the hell is the reason for a mechanic like this? Supposedly it was like that in DotA as well. This is just a stupid time sink; memorizing the exact range of your blink spell so you know just where to cast it. There's nothing tactical about it. There's no decision involved. If you want to blink your max range, you should be able to do so without practicing. :/

[Tensei]

AFAIK that's only the case with blink dagger (If you overshoot the 1200 max range, you'll only blink 800 units in that direction), not any blink skills. It's still stupid though, and I hope it'll be fixed throughout beta.

Their priority as of now seems to be to make the game as close to a 1:1 port as possible, and then work from there.

Also,

, in case anyone wants to see it. Edited October 23, 2011 by Tensei

[Nase]

If you want to blink your max range, you should be able to do so without practicing. :/

similar to witch slayer/lion stun in principle. you get more range by risking a missed stun.

with the blink, it does seem like a pretty forced attempt of making it more skill based. still, i've always liked how most of the blinks are handled a bit differently in dota/hon.

if the dota hero has been around for so long some people probably enjoy him a lot. idk, lots of things sound stupid in theory and you just have to play the hero to see if it makes sense in action or not.

[BardicKnowledge]

Personally, I'd like to see every skill get a distance-targetable ring as in League of Legends -- it doesn't hurt the competitive environment and makes the game much more accessible to new players.

[Tensei]

I dunno, League of Legends doesn't have a hero that can deal 900 non-ultimate magic damage as early as level 7 or 8 (Shadow Fiend/Soulstealer). Some hero skills are really balanced around the fact that they have finicky targeting and range, and something like range indicators could push them over the edge. I saw a nice suggestion on Reddit about adding range indicators the first time you played a hero, but slowly fading them out as you played more games with them.

I really like the way they handled Witch Slayer/Lions line stun that Nase mentioned. The trick is that the stun hits well beyond the animation of the skill (I think the actual range is something like 1000), but if you activate it by directly targeting someone, your hero will run within 600 range first before casting it. For newer players, it makes your stun a lot more reliable, but you'll never get the full potential out of it until you start casting it on the ground (i.e. as a skillshot) instead of directly.

I guess in that sense, the blink dagger penalty is somewhat similar to that concept, but I still don't feel entirely comfortable with it.

Also, I think what they do with mana bars is a lot more significant: currently mana bars aren't directly displayed on enemy heroes, but you can see an opponents mana by clicking on their hero. I would prefer if they were either displayed directly, or not displayed at all.

[BardicKnowledge]

I dunno, League of Legends doesn't have a hero that can deal 900 non-ultimate magic damage as early as level 7 or 8 (Shadow Fiend/Soulstealer). Some hero skills are really balanced around the fact that they have finicky targeting and range, and something like range indicators could push them over the edge. I saw a nice suggestion on Reddit about adding range indicators the first time you played a hero, but slowly fading them out as you played more games with them.

Also, I think what they do with mana bars is a lot more significant: currently mana bars aren't directly displayed on enemy heroes, but you can see an opponents mana by clicking on their hero. I would prefer if they were either displayed directly, or not displayed at all.

Soulstealer / Shadow Fiend is not a targeted ability -- you press the button and it happens immediately. I only want ranges on things that are targeted. For Lion's stun, why not have the targeting ring show the 1000 range to encourage people to not directly target it?

Mana bars are much more significant, incidentally. I was unaware of that change and don't approve of it. I often base my spot-judgments of "can I dive and get a kill" on how much mana my opponent has remaining -- especially against a hero like Behemoth / Pebbles (I forget the DotA names).

[Tensei]

It wasn't a change, that's how it always was with the original DotA engine. I don't see a reason to keep it that way in Dota 2 though. The fact that the information is accessible but it requires you to go out of your way (i.e. clicking on the enemy hero first) to get to it is what makes it annoying to me.

I think the current consensus is that obscuring mana bars allows for more mind games (i.e. when Kunkka momentarily goes into fog of war and then runs back out in your direction, you won't know if he actually cast a torrent or if he's just bluffing when you can't see his mana bar), but if they're intent on keeping that aspect they should just make it impossible to see your enemies' mana altogether.

It also seems a bit contradictory that they would hide mana bars while adding very detailed, segmented HP bars, which in turn makes it really easy to read how much damage you need to do to kill someone.

E:

did a video on Dota 2. Edited October 26, 2011 by Tensei

[Tensei]

Valve voice acting delivers yet again.

The funniest thing is that he has taunts for pretty much every female hero (around 8 minutes in)

Edited October 29, 2011 by Tensei

[zircon]

I think the amount of mind games added by obscuring mana bars is greatly outweighed by the memory tax it puts on players (trying to keep track of how much they used so you know what they're capable of.) Dotalikes already have an insane burden of knowledge, why add even more? The last thing this genre needs is more barriers to entry. I'm pretty sure it has enough of those.

[Bleck]

Dotalikes already have an insane burden of knowledge, why add even more?

icefrog's design modus has always been complication = competitive

[Tensei]

It's not a thing that has been 'added', but it's something that has been around for a long time and to some people is as much a part of playing DotA as lasthitting, stacking neutrals, etc. so they're currently pretty hesitant about taking it out. I'm hesitant to pass judgement because I haven't extensively played with mana bars off, but for all I know, it does make the game more fun (not to mention that showing mana bars would be a significant buff for Antimage, which is currently the last thing they want to do)

Also, I wouldn't call it more complicated or competitive. Some of the 'archaic' DotA mechanics just make the game more fun to me. Juking by eating through trees is fun, Dodging stuns that would spell your death is fun, controlling multiple units is fun, etc.