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Customers should be rewarded, but that's not going to stop pirates, it's merely a nice thank-you to the customer (and I agree with it, and already mentioned that way early on)--the problem with pirating is not developers....

That entirely depends on how big the reward is. Imagine a place like the iTunes store; imagine that being used to promote ppl who use Logic legally. Random garage bands and bedroom producers - who are registered Logic customers. Imagine Apple verifying this with Spectrasonics, Native-Instruments, Tonehammer and whoever else before advertising those indie artists. Imagine Apple revoking the Logic license and any right to upgrades for it.

Imagine a big indie music portal doing this, maybe CDBaby could have the right to ask for a project file or something to check what tools you use, and check with the developers if you're a customer. What if they have a list of ppl who've verified that they use stuff legally, and extra-promote ppl randomly from that list. Could be done automatically, with a script that just picks someone from the list and goes "Hey, check this guy out" when you visit a new page or refresh your screen or something.

Hm, an exercise in imagining. :)

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I am my only employee, if people steal from me, it takes food out of my mouth, that's all that matters.

Why is music and software different?

Publishers are the only ones that make money off of sales, Artists only make money off of concerts, and Writers only make money off of royalties based performances.

If publishers take a hit, the artist doesn't care unless they're the publisher as well (Lars Ulrich anyone?) because the number 1 pirated song will still be a hot concert ticket, and people do have to pay for concerts.

Radio stations make money off of listenership and advertising dollars and popular music means listeners, pirated or not is irrelevant, and radio stations still register with PROs and writers still make royalties.

I don't know what Tensei's potential revenue is from sales of his music, I can't imagine that his potential revenue is all that different from his actual revenue.

The issue is not whether or not Tensei will be able to eat tomorrow or go to the doctor or even earn enough money to pay his 1,000 USD a month in music expenses (which aren't enough to sate his lust for more gear).

The only issue with Tensei is that he's proven that he is a sociopath--he simply doesn't care, and why should he? Honestly, some of the most successful people in the world are sociopaths, they have to be, in order to step on so many people for their own benefit. Tensei is well on his path to taking advantage of whomever he wishes, whenever he feels like it, however he wants.

Good for him. We should all be like him.

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Imagine a big indie music portal doing this, maybe CDBaby could have the right to ask for a project file or something to check what tools you use, and check with the developers if you're a customer. What if they have a list of ppl who've verified that they use stuff legally, and extra-promote ppl randomly from that list. Could be done automatically, with a script that just picks someone from the list and goes "Hey, check this guy out" when you visit a new page or refresh your screen or something.

There isn't enough manpower to check every single artist and get in contact with the company owners of all of his/her plug-in uses. Sure it'll catch up eventually and only have to check new artists, but do we really want to have digital distribution sites turn into the OCR judge queue multiplied on a scale of ten thousand?

That requires an immense amount of patience and communication.

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not everyone cares about that exposure, I for instance have no intention of having a music career, it's just a hobby that I do for my own entertainment. funnily enough I legally own all of my software, there are people in this thread openly admitting to piracy while condemning it at the same time

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I am my only employee, if people steal from me, it takes food out of my mouth, that's all that matters.

Why is music and software different?

Publishers are the only ones that make money off of sales, Artists only make money off of concerts, and Writers only make money off of royalties based performances.

If publishers take a hit, the artist doesn't care unless they're the publisher as well (Lars Ulrich anyone?) because the number 1 pirated song will still be a hot concert ticket, and people do have to pay for concerts.

Radio stations make money off of listenership and advertising dollars and popular music means listeners, pirated or not is irrelevant, and radio stations still register with PROs and writers still make royalties.

I don't know what Tensei's potential revenue is from sales of his music, I can't imagine that his potential revenue is all that different from his actual revenue.

The issue is not whether or not Tensei will be able to eat tomorrow or go to the doctor or even earn enough money to pay his 1,000 USD a month in music expenses (which aren't enough to sate his lust for more gear).

The only issue with Tensei is that he's proven that he is a sociopath--he simply doesn't care, and why should he? Honestly, some of the most successful people in the world are sociopaths, they have to be, in order to step on so many people for their own benefit. Tensei is well on his path to taking advantage of whomever he wishes, whenever he feels like it, however he wants.

Good for him. We should all be like him.

Ah yes, keeping it classy. When rape accusations don't do the trick, switch to sociopathy. Armchair psychology aside, I don't really understand the point you're trying to make in the first part of your post. You put down the rhetorical question "Why is music and software different" and then proceeded to...not answer it. So is there any chance you could put it more succinctly? Why IS music and software different?

The second part of the post is almost entirely about me and how I have proven myself to be a complete sociopath, which I feel goes a bit beyond the scope of this thread, so it might be best to leave stuff like that out, since it really does clog up the thread and prevents meaningful discussion from happening.

Since you apparently feel that there is a fundamental difference between music and software piracy, how do you feel about me pirating a game like, say, Anachronox then?

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The difference is that software is not performed--100% of profit from software comes from publisher sales.

There are no software concerts, nor software radios, nor even software Performing Rights Organizations.

Software depends entirely on sales of its product, whether virtual or physical.

They are not analogs.

I can't always expect Hollandaise Sauce to get every point or string the dots along himself, sure, but there is a threshold for ridiculous. You can't see the difference, so why do you care for me to expound on my point?

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Tensei you gotta stop being so angry, dude. You're a nice guy usually, I don't like seeing you this way.

I am so furious man you have no idea i just wanna go out on the internet and call people rapists and sociopaths like whoah

Hollandaise Sauce
is French... ?

Now you actually got me interested though, like, more interested than all the rape and sociopathy and stuff. Why do you keep on making (what you think are) allusions to my native country? It just seems so arbitrary to me. Are they supposed to be insults or something?

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Musicians steal from eachother all the time, in one form another. Is it right? no. Does it usually end in some form of artistic expression which can potentially be both beautiful and satisfying? Yes. Isn't that what we're here for?

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Musicians steal from eachother all the time, in one form another. Is it right? no. Does it usually end in some form of artistic expression which can potentially be both beautiful and satisfying? Yes. Isn't that what we're here for?

...what?

I mean, you can steal a chord progression but that's not the same as ste

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Musicians steal from eachother all the time, in one form another. Is it right? no. Does it usually end in some form of artistic expression which can potentially be both beautiful and satisfying? Yes. Isn't that what we're here for?

It's one thing to pay homage to another musician through an arrangement or remix. It's another to go on a torrent site and download a sample library that took me 12 months and $10,000 to make.

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why is it not akin? stealing intellectual material is stealing intellectual material. If were gonna be so stern about our rules and laws in the internet, why shouldnt it go for everything? Otherwise, I'm simply paying hommage to cubase by using their software illegally. It isn't black and white. And i'm not talking the artists that get permission to sample a loop from somebody, im talking the ones that go out and do it without permission, or who steal rights to songs all of the time (ex. miles davis, charlie parker, etc. )

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why is it not akin? stealing intellectual material is stealing intellectual material. If were gonna be so stern about our rules and laws in the internet, why shouldnt it go for everything? Otherwise, I'm simply paying hommage to cubase by using their software illegally. It isn't black and white. And i'm not talking the artists that get permission to sample a loop from somebody, im talking the ones that go out and do it without permission, or who steal rights to songs all of the time (ex. miles davis, charlie parker, etc. )

You can't call software intellectual material unless you're talking about the source code.

We're not talking about source code, we're talking about the FULL-COMPILED PRODUCTS that people are stealing.

You are not "paying homage" to Cubase by using it illegally. No one can tell you make a song with a certain DAW. All you're doing is stealing and using something that doesn't belong to you for your own self benefit.

Seriously guys, why are you lumping music and software together? Software isn't intellectual property. It's as tangible a product as a car. Music is not, at least in your example, Wiesty.

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There are some really silly points being brought up here, as expected any time this topic comes up.

Paying melodic homage to someone else's music is such a different topic altogether. First of all, there are laws that dictate what is acceptable and not. In the cases of obvious major derivative works (remixes and such) that's why the royalties/licensing system exists. Second, if artist B throws a small shoutout to a track written by artist A, it's likely not impeding artist A's profit from the musical product he/she created. Third, music is art and software is a tool used to build a product. The fact that the product is digital does not change the fact that it is being created by a tangible tool. It's 2011. Thinking that just because something is just lines of code and electrical signals on a computer does not change the fact that it's a product and not just some magical free mystical device that nobody can "own" and is therefor free to be taken advantage of by any and all. That is an insanely ridiculous and primitive line of thinking.

These debates are easy to have on an internet forum, but let's consider how they'd go before any judicial system in the modern world. Defendant is charged with pirating software. Whether pirating a plugin that costs $20 or pirating thousands of dollars of multiple software, they would be found guilty. End of story.

Ultimately, unauthorized piracy from active, living vendors/developers/individuals is theft; it is wrong, and it is illegal. That's the answer to "why not pirate", which is the root question to this debate right? So there you have it.

************

On a deeper tangent to the topic of piracy in general, someone said that everyone pirates stuff, be it music or software, and I'd say that most people probably do. I've done it, most people in this discussion have admitted that they pirated software/music at one point or another for various reasons. Whatever, it's silly to pretend that a debate will end that. People are always going to do it, and for all kinds of reasons, from some that are ridiculously shallow and cheaply justified and outright reprehensible, to some that are actually understandable and even respectable and logical.

That being said, seeing as people who openly admit to active piracy on the more reprehensible end of the aforementioned spectrum love to throw the alarm anytime someone resorts to Ad hominem, it's only fair to say then that using the argument "I bet you guys have pirated stuff (or whatever) before" isn't a valid argument because it doesn't change the fact that piracy is illegal and wrong and shouldn't be done, it just makes the other party a hypocrite. And as Tensei said, even a smoker can say that smoking is unhealthy. It just makes them look silly for saying something that they're guilty of.

I feel like that's pretty well the fairest and objective perspective on the matter anyway. I personally don't pirate because I find the older I've become, the more my perspective has changed to "I just want to do the right thing." I'm more aware of consequences of my actions, both legal and abstract. Stealing is wrong, and because I know guys like Andy and how much time and money they invest into developing software and whether I know them personally or not, I don't want to rob them of their rightfully earned income. I haven't pirated music in a long time. All the music I listen to in recent years I own. There's still some pirated stuff on my hard drive here and there, but if I go back and listen to it and realize I don't own it, I rectify that. Thanks to Steam, I own a helluva lot of games. Most of which I haven't even played and may never get around to playing. But I bought them because they were convenient to buy and affordable. The games that I think cost too much, I either wait for them to come down, or I just don't play them. I don't tell myself "Oh, I'm just a hobbyist gamer and therefore don't need to pay the $60 to play this game since I'm not actually making money by playing it".

I think it's really just more about maturity and education than anything. In earlier years, you bet I pirated stuff. I pirated music, games, I pirated FL Studio and made my first remix on it. I'm not going to condemn those of you who pirate to a fiery hell, but I will say that I've personally come to realize that there's no compelling justification for it. I hope that you eventually abide by this realization, especially since we've enlightened you to plenty of reasons why you shouldn't. But whatever, like anything in life, you have the right to do whatever you want and get away with it if you can, so there's really no sense for me to get too upset over the personal choices you choose to make that I have no control over.

******************

TL:DR - Why not pirate*? Because it's illegal. It is theft, it's immature, it's disrespectful, it's wrong, etc etc etc. Whether we've all done it or not doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be done.

*referring to piracy of items that are actively and readily available via legal medium from active developers/artists/individuals/companies who rely on their product for their livelihood.

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