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So it comes down to the sympathy argument? I mean, I see where people are coming from, I just disagree with it. I don't feel any worse for pirating music from a bedroom studio indie musician than from a big music label and the same thing extends to software.

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Debating on the morals of piracy is completely pointless, it's going to happen no matter how wrong you think it is. Appealing to better nature doesn't solve problems. Pirates have no concequences for their actions and the stuff is readily availible for significantly less price and hassle than the real versions. Heck, it's even attractive to me sometimes.

The only true deterrent for piracy is legal action. I'm sure if Company X decided to trace IPs running pirated copies of their software, they'd scare a few people.

My point from earlier still stands though, piracy protection should NOT be a hinderance. Pirated software should never look more attractive than the real thing.

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So it comes down to the sympathy argument?

most of the posts in this thread that condemn piracy do appeal to sympathy

people are all hypocrites, nothing new. same reason why we use some animals for food without a second thought but killing a kitten or a puppy would earn you near universal scorn, it is all about sympathy and most of the rules we think we live by are incongruent with how we actually live

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most of the posts in this thread that condemn piracy do appeal to sympathy

people are all hypocrites, nothing new. same reason why we use some animals for food without a second thought but killing a kitten or a puppy would earn you near universal scorn, it is all about sympathy and most of the rules we think we live by are incongruent with how we actually live

QFE. asdfahah

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The only true deterrent for piracy is legal action. I'm sure if Company X decided to trace IPs running pirated copies of their software, they'd scare a few people.

My point from earlier still stands though, piracy protection should NOT be a hinderance. Pirated software should never look more attractive than the real thing.

So free hardware, on-site promotion of your work, gift cards to local music stores and stuff like that wouldn't work, you think?

I mean, I reckon every company could host competitions for their registered customers to use a limited set of tools to create something in between a demo track and a competition track.

Apple could do this with Logic, have ppl do tracks using only Logic's built-in effects. If they're not registered Logic users, their entries aren't considered for this promotion thing, and not eligible for any prizes or anything. A company like Apple that has a wide range of products could easily offer gift cards for their stores, same with Native Instruments and a few other bigger developers. Doing it in cooperation with audiomidi.com or other music-related stores would lead to a wider range of prizes - and more prizes for ppl who don't place quite as high, still rewarding them for not pirating that stuff.

I don't know why, but I'm more interested in solutions than in piracy and morality. I really wanna hear your thoughts on what actually can be done rather than reiterations on every software piracy thread ever.

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Apple could do this with Logic [...] rewarding them for not pirating that stuff.
Yeah, sounds like a fantastic idea. Would definitely encourage more users to buy the software.
So free hardware, on-site promotion of your work, gift cards to local music stores and stuff like that wouldn't work, you think?
I never said this wouldn't work, it's a good idea, but it won't stop pirates like scare tactics would.
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Likewise, I could imagine pirates or purchasers alike who want to learn a DAW they know nothing about wouldn't cease working with it simply because they don't understand how every nuance functions, nor does their incomprehension necessarily portend their means of obtaining the DAW or their commitment to it.

ALL DAW'S WORK MORE OR LESS THE SAME.

The similarities between Cubase/Pro Tools and REAPER are astoundingly immeasurable.

By the time you can use REAPER properly, the "not spending money on a meager hobby" no longer applies, because you've invested too much time into it to say that you're allowed to pirate a DAW because you're not "that interested".

Same goes with most synths and samplers.

My argument is a response to "I can pirate because it's just a hobby."

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neblix. You are wrong and your argument makes no sense. please stop trying to prove your point when there is no point to prove. you have 4+ people telling you its an incorrect argument, etc.

Technically music is a hobby for me. I have a career job I go to every day, 5 days a week. My job isn't about music. Therefore, technically music is one of my hobbies, yet I have spent thousands of dollars on hardware/software, I have learned 1 or 2 daws proficiently, a bunch of synths, yet it is still a hobby.

Investing time in something doesnt automatically not make it a hobby. It's not a hobby when it becomes your primary focus and not a secondary one.

so, I guess I can pirate because its just a hobby :D

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Investing time in something doesnt automatically not make it a hobby. It's not a hobby when it becomes your primary focus and not a secondary one.

You can't say "I can pirate because it's just a hobby."

Just like you can't pirate video games because it's "just a hobby" and you can't pirate video/image editing software because it's "just a hobby".

These things are made and sold to all people, NOT JUST PROFESSIONALS. If only professionals were to buy things, music software would be so much more damn expensive. Being a hobbyist doesn't give you the right to steal things you want.

That's selfish.

If you can't afford it, then tough luck.

I can't afford East West Quantum Leap Composer's Collection, so now it's suddenly okay for me to just steal it? I don't sell my music, so it's okay and legal, right?

Also, you are misreading my argument. I'm not saying it's not a hobby anymore, I'm saying it's not "just a hobby" anymore. Meaning it's no longer something that you can pirate just because you don't really care much for it. I apologize for this, it's the fault of my word choice.

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You guys can afford a lot more than you realize:

1) Get a job.

2) Save money by being frugal--that means don't eat out, or if you do, eat cheaply. Do you spend money on going to the movie theater? Or any other entertainment? Stop, save your money. Video games? WoW? Stop, save your money.

3) Are you a student? If you're young and a student, you can get software ridiculously cheap (or even if you're old and a student). For example, you could get Hollywood Strings from East West, arguably one of the best on-the-market string libraries in the world, and you can get it for a mere 250 USD. If you have a part-time job and make 7.50/hr, you could have that software in anywhere between a couple of weeks to a couple of months depending on what your necessary expenses involve.

Unless you're a lazy Hollander like Jopen who spends all his money on weed and prostitutes.

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<twocents>

I've never pirated any software that I use in my productions. Everything I've ever used in my life has been either bought at full price (very rare) or purchased on a severely-discounted sale (the majority of my software). Everything goes on sale eventually. If you're patient and learn to use the tools you have available to you now (freeware plugs, etc.) you'll be that much better of a computer musician when you're given the fantastic payware tools via your hard-saved money and some timely sales.

</twocents>

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Debating on the morals of piracy is completely pointless, it's going to happen no matter how wrong you think it is. Appealing to better nature doesn't solve problems. Pirates have no concequences for their actions and the stuff is readily availible for significantly less price and hassle than the real versions. Heck, it's even attractive to me sometimes.

The only true deterrent for piracy is legal action. I'm sure if Company X decided to trace IPs running pirated copies of their software, they'd scare a few people.

My point from earlier still stands though, piracy protection should NOT be a hinderance. Pirated software should never look more attractive than the real thing.

Disagree with this. People pirate out of opportunity. Say program X takes 5 minutes to pirate. More people will pirate that than a program that takes 30 minutes to pirate and requires registry editing or something, and more people will pirate THAT then a program that requires a series of shady keygens, custom firewall rules, and so forth. So overall, I think making piracy harder will deter some people. Legal action is questionable as a deterrent. Look at the RIAA suing filesharers. Where did that get them?

As for pirating music being more acceptable, that's simply because it's cheaper. Duh. Stealing a candy bar from the convenience store is wrong, but you're hardly going to go to jail over it. Stealing a car, on the other hand, is much more serious. Music is valued at 99c per song or less, music software can easily extend into the thousands of dollars.

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Disagree with this. People pirate out of opportunity. Say program X takes 5 minutes to pirate. More people will pirate that than a program that takes 30 minutes to pirate and requires registry editing or something, and more people will pirate THAT then a program that requires a series of shady keygens, custom firewall rules, and so forth. So overall, I think making piracy harder will deter some people. Legal action is questionable as a deterrent. Look at the RIAA suing filesharers. Where did that get them?

I disagree. People pirate because they want to keep their money. That is the main reason.

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Yes, I can't think of a theft that isn't based around opportunity.

Mostly what I hear is that people do not want to pay full price for the stuff they want--that paying full price is inconvenient.

I just can't see how that is even a worthwhile discussion: Grow up.

Sometimes stuff isn't convenient: Like working out, or calling your mom, or remembering your girlfriends birthday--but that's just how life works.

Stop acting like you're from Amsterdam and pay your own way in this world.

Or, you know, borrow the money if it's so important right now. Honestly, if you have to have it right now, it should be because you're going to make money off it. If that's the case, then you can easily find some way to borrow the money.

But we know that's not the case and that you're just being lazy, like Joslin.

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Correction, that's how the system works, not life.

Like it or not, you are a part of the system. You can only think you're not if you fool yourself into a narrower scope of thought.

Like the idiot that thinks throwing something away is actually throwing something away--that it will never come back or does not exist anymore.

That is a narrow and simple-minded thought process. Inconsiderate or ignorant of the broader scope of this world and how life operates.

Same as the person who thinks stealing something they'd never pay for is not hurting the manufacturer.

You're not some cool, hipster matrix rebel if you think that, you're just an ignorant a-hole.

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The way I see it is that nothing will stop pirates - they're going to do it whether there's consequences or not.

But when businesses like tonehammer and east west disappear, the only music being created is by amateur bedroom musicians in their spare time, and the only hardware is cheap m-audio stuff, the end result will suffer dramatically - and hopefully piracy will stop simply because the listener has such a terrible experience.

...The amount of money put towards something does have a correlation to its quality.

But that point is far in the future, I hope.

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I follow the rules I don't think I'm any different than anyone else. But to say that this is the only way and the only way things can be is the narrow minded thought process. I'm just saying that it isn't life it's a system and the only reason why it still exists is because we perpetuate this system and we were born into it not thinking or believing anything else.

I do what I can to pay for what I use. If I don't have the money then I'll trail it till I have the money, I'm hurt by the a-hole comment =(

I understand the need to create something but since money's involved, it turns into something entirely different we create for monetary schemes. Where's the humility? I thought the idea of creating was to share those creations with one another =/ just for the sake of doing it. If I'm wrong correct me please.

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A-hole was not specifically directed at you, but anyone who refuses to accept their role in this world. Like it or not, you were born into this world, you live in this world, and you will die in this world, and your life will effect the system through the choices you make throughout your existence.

Every creator has the CHOICE to put their work out there for the greater community or not--to offer it freely or to not.

To not respect that choice is a massive DISrespect to those creators.

An irony when you consider that in order for pirates to want something, they must have some measure of respect for the product and indirectly the creator.

To fly in the face of that opportunity to respect the wishes of the product's creator is to be a lazy a-hole.

And I refuse to respect anyone who so proudly boasts their exploits.

We should be ashamed of piracy.

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I thought the idea of creating was to share those creations with one another =/ just for the sake of doing it. If I'm wrong correct me please.

if there's one thing I've learned about the whole "music business," it's that this kind of idealism will get you eaten alive.

also, anyone who claims to "create for creation's sake" typically doesn't make anything worth listening to.

granted, not that it doesn't happen... rarely...

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if there's one thing I've learned about the whole "music business," it's that this kind of idealism will get you eaten alive.

also, anyone who claims to "create for creation's sake" typically doesn't make anything worth listening to.

granted, not that it doesn't happen... rarely...

I have a couple of brilliant friends who design software functions and work in the open source space and offer their creativity for free out of pure joy for the process.

That's totally cool.

When Radiohead released In-Rainbows, they let people pay what they felt it was worth to them, and offered the album free to anyone who wanted it.

Very cool.

That is the choice of the creator's to make.

We all have that choice.

It is not our place to FORCE that choice--that is like raping the creator: Pure A-Hole Maneuver.

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