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Oh, yeah, about discontinued stuff: Tonehammer recently discontinued the lite version of their Requiem VSTi (it's a choir sample library), which was about $300 iirc.

They now only have the standard version which has multiple mic positions and a few more soloists, but is like twice the price of the lite version. I was actually planning on buying the lite version until they discontinued it. $630 on a VST that isn't even that versatile (not as much as acoustic drums, string sections, etc.) is just way beyond my price range, so I pirated the lite version and use it from time to time. I think the piracy is justified in this case.

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How is it justified? Why do you think you are entitled to free software from a developer because you don't like their prices? That's pretty much the OPPOSITE of justified piracy. It's self-entitlement.

The only justified piracy is if you PAID for something already and it becomes unavailable, or it stops authorizing on your computer properly, etc. I can also understand downloading something with no trial just to see if it runs well on your computer, but only if you delete it after you're done trying it or you buy the full version later (I admit I've done this a few times.)

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How is it justified? Why do you think you are entitled to free software from a developer because you don't like their prices? That's pretty much the OPPOSITE of justified piracy. It's self-entitlement.

It's a discontinued product. I have no interest in the non-lite version, because, as mentioned, it's outside of my price range. If they hadn't discontinued the lite version, I would have bought it, but since they did, I'll have to acquire it some other way.

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I personally try and use free software where possible, other than that I record whatever I can. Most of the production I do is related to this site, I do not use software to make money, and I produce stuff for the purpose of sharing my music with others in the community for their enjoyment. Therefore I cannot justify at this point in my music making career dropping a large sum of money to make music for the purpose of sharing it in a community of remixers. If i come to a point where Im planning to sell anything, or produce stuff for others, sure.

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Therefore I cannot justify at this point in my music making career dropping a large sum of money to make music for the purpose of sharing it in a community of remixers.

How so? Just because we aren't paying you doesn't mean that you don't have to buy something to use it. It's not YOURS, so you deal with not using it until you buy it.

You have to pay for things like everyone else. It's absolutely frustrating to see unskilled people (in general) pirating things like EWQLCCC and can have them readily available while on the flip side being a skilled person who actually pays for things you want because you're honest but can't because you don't have much money.

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Your skilled vs. unskilled argument is really tiring. I'll accept your stance on the moral implications of piracy, but whether someone has the skills to properly use a program is completely irrelevant and just a tool you're using to place yourself on a pedestal above others with differing values.

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These aren't some random money grubbing companies, these people are our friends, colleagues, and peers.

Tonehammer is Troels Folmann, he's not some anonymous company, he's one of us, he's a Game Composer and a super fan of game music!

WTF is wrong with you? You're stealing from a game composer and happily admitting it on a website devoted to honoring the work of Game Composers!

That is so ass backward!

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Your skilled vs. unskilled argument is really tiring. I'll accept your stance on the moral implications of piracy, but whether someone has the skills to properly use a program is completely irrelevant and just a tool you're using to place yourself on a pedestal above others with differing values.

It's not irrelevant at all. If you pirate your software you're more likely to be someone who doesn't know how to use it. Therefore, you have no need for it and should stop pirating it.

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It's not irrelevant at all. If you pirate your software you're more likely to be someone who doesn't know how to use it. Therefore, you have no need for it and should stop pirating it.

so we should get free software instead. That way, we still won't know how to use and will have no need for it.

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If sound design/emulation companies' main concerns were of independant home based musicians playing around in their basements with pirated software, they probably would have done something about it a long time ago. However, they understand that anybody in the industry who is making even a dollar off of their software probably has the moral standards to pay for the software they are using in their buisness. This goes for any industry, wether it be photographers using photoshop, videographers using premiere, etc. etc. If it was really a big enough problem in the industry to the point where large sums of money were not moving around, I gaurentee you something would have been done, thats just economics. Look at the music industry and Napster/limewire etc. etc. So really it comes down to a question of morals, and this really isn't the best place to argue them, as everyone has their own.

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These aren't some random money grubbing companies, these people are our friends, colleagues, and peers.

Tonehammer is Troels Folmann, he's not some anonymous company, he's one of us, he's a Game Composer and a super fan of game music!

I'm not a game composer, and I don't even know the guy. What is this fallacy called again, appeal to pity?

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If it was really a big enough problem in the industry to the point where large sums of money were not moving around, I gaurentee you something would have been done, thats just economics.

Something liiiiiiiiiiike ... draconian DRM systems?

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If sound design/emulation companies' main concerns were of independant home based musicians playing around in their basements with pirated software, they probably would have done something about it a long time ago.

So, what you're saying is because you're not in the target demographic, you don't apply to the same rules, and therefore have no obligation to abide the laws and support companies who spend thousands of dollars to make a product that you appreciate.

thisissilly.gif

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As someone who makes their living selling audio gear I can personally attest to many tales of people pirating anything and everything they can get their hands on to save a couple bucks. You might have found $25,000 worth of cracked plugins, but if their net worth to YOU is zero (because you didn't pay anything), then their net value to you is zero as well.

It radically disincentivizes (Did I make that word up? We'll never know) the end user to learn how to use their gear when it is treated as a disposable commodity. Don't get me wrong, I know some people with racks full of Manley preamps and Lexicon reverbs that can't work a mix to save their life, but the percentage of people with that calibre of gear who suck at mixing is extremely low. On the other hand, I know a massive amount of people who pirate their DAW and plugins and are content with a $100 condenser and a $100 interface. These guys generally don't have a clue how a compressor works, would rather use their eyes than their ears for EQ, and couldn't give you a definition of "mastering" if you offered them real studio time.

Saying that you're taking money out of the wallets of the developer isn't necessarily true, although I know it can feel that way to them. I'm sure most pirates would say that they just wouldn't have bought the software to begin with if they had to. At the end of the day, you need to value people's time and expertise. Their time and expertise created the tools available to us to create music and we should feel personally obligated to support them in their craft. That's how a market works - you have the luxury of being able to decide who you want to support with your money, and not supporting those you don't want to. If you hate Pro Tools, don't buy it. If you think Omnisphere is the most amazing software since Giga, then buy it.

The reality of the situation is that software developers, more than anyone, have to learn to compete with a free alternative; namely, pirated copies of their own product. No-one has figured out the perfect solution, but adding value and support is the easiest way of going about it, I think. I'm not here to preach the gospel of my employer, but that is most definitely our business model and it is working out extremely well.

Sorry for the rambling!

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so we should get free software instead.

Yes.

That way, we still won't know how to use and will have no need for it.

You don't have any reason to pirate something like Cubase if you can't even use free software like REAPER.

By the time you develop the kind of skill where you need Cubase over REAPER, you'll have invested enough time into your hobby to justify spending money on it.

However, if you DIDN'T invest the time to master free stuff like REAPER, then you don't need something like Cubase and don't need to pirate it.

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It's a discontinued product. I have no interest in the non-lite version, because, as mentioned, it's outside of my price range. If they hadn't discontinued the lite version, I would have bought it, but since they did, I'll have to acquire it some other way.

Or you could buy an alternative product like QLSC, or simply save for the full version. It's not reasonable to call Requiem Lite "discontinued" in the sense that abandonware is "discontinued". They're selling the exact same content (plus more), they just couldn't reasonably (and fiscally) afford to keep selling a light version.

I think it's troubling that you have no trouble with pirating things when you've made thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars from your music. You obviously have money and spend a great deal of time on music, so you're just choosing to be dishonest and pirate out of opportunity. The only people who I'd say are even worse pirates are those who actually resell cracked software on eBay, but that's not saying much.

Ultimately, this is really no different than the idea of turnstile jumping. It takes money to maintain a subway. You're not "stealing" from a municipality by jumping a turnstile, in that they're not technically losing anything physical. You're just robbing them of potential income because you have the opportunity to break the law and get away with it. If everyone jumped turnstiles though, the municipality would not have enough money to run the subway, thus robbing law-abiding and law-breaking citizens alike of a valuable service. Yes, I know this is a simplification of budgeting, but you get the point.

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If you pirate your software you're more likely to be someone who doesn't know how to use it. Therefore, you have no need for it and should stop pirating it.

Uh huh. Using deductive absolutes like that kinda requires some substantive data to become anything worthy of anyone's consideration. And your conclusion doesn't follow in the least from your premise, were it even true. Not knowing how to use something well suddenly evaporates one's need to use it? I'm no good with cars, but I sure as shit need mine. I won't be returning it to the dealer anytime soon because I don't know what the hell's going on under the hood. Likewise, I could imagine pirates or purchasers alike who want to learn a DAW they know nothing about wouldn't cease working with it simply because they don't understand how every nuance functions, nor does their incomprehension necessarily portend their means of obtaining the DAW or their commitment to it.

I've read so many of your posts, and every time I do, the same aphorism beats in my mind: think before you speak.

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Uh huh. Using deductive absolutes like that kinda requires some substantive data to become anything worthy of anyone's consideration. And your conclusion doesn't follow in the least from your premise, were it even true. Not knowing how to use something well suddenly evaporates one's need to use it? I'm no good with cars, but I sure as shit need mine. I won't be returning it to the dealer anytime soon because I don't know what the hell's going on under the hood. Likewise, I could imagine pirates or purchasers alike who want to learn a DAW they know nothing about wouldn't cease working with it simply because they don't understand how every nuance functions, nor does their incomprehension necessarily portend their means of obtaining the DAW or their commitment to it.

I've read so many of your posts, and every time I do, the same aphorism beats in my mind: think before you speak.

This is precisely what I was thinking. Thank you for articulating this.

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I'm not a game composer, and I don't even know the guy. What is this fallacy called again, appeal to pity?

I understand Dan's point isn't exactly the strongest argument, but "I don't know the guy or follow suite in his profession so who cares?" is just as weak a defense.

"I only steal from people I don't know personally". Not the most compelling perspective, is it?

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This isn't idle philosophy, this is actually happening, and real people are involved.

It is a MASSIVE disrespect to the people who put the care into recording, editing, and programming these libraries.

The worst part is, the easiest ones to steal are the ones made by people who reap the least rewards for their efforts.

Lucky for Joris, he hides away in Holland where he'll probably never face his victims.

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You're blowing things way out of proportion.

I'd be willing to bet that some (not all) of the people in this thread railing on software piracy have retail music on their hard drives that they didn't think twice about downloading without paying for.

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This isn't idle philosophy, this is actually happening, and real people are involved.

It is a MASSIVE disrespect to the people who put the care into recording, editing, and programming these libraries.

The worst part is, the easiest ones to steal are the ones made by people who reap the least rewards for their efforts.

Lucky for Joris, he hides away in Holland where he'll probably never face his victims.

'Joris'? 'Hides away in Holland'? ( that's not the country name btw.)

So much for mature discussion I guess, let's switch to personal attacks. VXRFb9.gifV

Whether or not I know someone personally doesn't actually matter to me, it's just that it was brought up as a sticking point that I should feel sorry for these people because they're the same as I am or something, so I refuted that. It wasn't my main argument for why I'd pirate it by any means.

And yeah, Dew mentioned music piracy. I know for a fact that my music gets pirated a shitton, but I don't even really bother going after it, because hey, that's just how it is. How come music piracy seems much more socially acceptable than software piracy?

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