League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[Bleck]

Broodmother

broodmother's W is a slightly different version of malzahar's E

broodmother's B is just an overpowered sounding version of akali's W

broodmother's P is just teemo's blind dart with a slow

broodmother's ult is basically sion's ult

this is one of those things where people argue that dota is better using methods or rationales that don't actually make any sense, or are at best much more subjective than they suggest

[Tensei]

Yeah I remember that time when I played Malhazar and sent 10 of my minions off to farm neutrals while I used 10 others to push the lane...

Or when I placed Akali's smoke clouds (which last indefinitely, of course, and can be used to alter the terrain and create shortcuts) across the entirety of a lane so I could have freefarm in a 1v2 situation.

That's three concepts on a single hero (Fully controllable minions, the ability to place permanent structures, and altering the terrain) that don't exist in LoL, and most likely never will.

Zircon totally has a point when he's talking about lazy re-hashed abilities on Volibear, and it's probably my main issue with LoL.

E: Something else that make Broodmother awesome:

She's a monstrous female character. Ever notice how Riots male champions run the gamut from strong and handsome humans (Xin Zhao, Garen) to cute and diminutive (Teemo, Corki, Veigar) to corpulent (Gragas) or monstrous (Urgot), and everything in between? There's a huge variety in bodytypes here. Now look at the female champions...they only have sexy humanoid characters and cute diminutive ones, Anivia perhaps being the sole exception. Even Riots attempt at a monstrous female turns out like Shyvana, exposed midriff, boobplate and all.

Broodmother is a giant spider. Her femininity definitely plays a major role in her Dota 2 backstory (and even extends to her skillset) so she isn't just a generic monster that could just as well have been a male, but guess what? There's absolutely none of the ridiculous sexualization that's present in Riots overall aesthetic design.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Tensei

[The Author]

If they scale differently, have different cooldowns, and are on different heroes, then it is different enough. I mean, it all comes down to abilities that:

Kill, protect, heal, or control / move.

Other games may be more creative, but I think that because Riot has a professional competitive aspect to the game, they have to focus on the championship balance.

[Bleck]

oh wow you can use ai minions to farm other minions

"watching little robots do something i.e the opposite of bland" - Tensei

meanwhile I enjoy playing video games

[Tensei]

oh wow you can use ai minions to farm other minions

"watching little robots do something i.e the opposite of bland" - Tensei

meanwhile I enjoy playing video games

Which part of 'fully controllable' did you not understand? Are you just being obtuse on purpose now? AI doesn't even come into the equation, you control each of your minions manually as Broodmother.

What you just did is describe how Annies ult or Malhazars passive works in LoL.

Other games may be more creative, but I think that because Riot has a professional competitive aspect to the game, they have to focus on the championship balance.

DotA and Dota 2 respectively have and will have a greater competitive scene (i.e. a greater amount of competitive teams and leagues worldwide) than League of Legends, and the games are definitely at least as balanced. Competitive balance isn't an excuse for Riots cash-grab champion design policy.

[BardicKnowledge]

oh wow you can use ai minions to farm other minions

"watching little robots do something i.e the opposite of bland" - Tensei

meanwhile I enjoy playing video games

uh, they're not AI minions that you create, which is Tensei's point -- you get additional characters to control, a concept that LoL doesn't have (nope, Annie's ult doesn't really count, as you can't effectively be in two places at once using it) and will likely never have.

There are a number of arguments to be made in LoL's favor -- more interesting jungle (that sees regular revision, as this patch is showing), a means of forcing early/mid game team fights (dragon), a more organized shopping system, casters that scale, etc.

Hero concepts in LoL are almost always terrible. There are only a couple heroes that do unique things as part of their movesets (Orianna's ball is interesting in practice and fun to work, for example), and this is one area where Riot could really stand to improve.

[Bleck]

uh, they're not AI minions that you create, which is Tensei's point -- you get additional characters to control

so instead of playing dota I'm suddenly playing an rts

I'm not exactly sure why adding an extra step to last hitting (i.e instead of last hitting you make a minion that you then control and uh last hit with) is apparently a super cool and funky fresh thing but then again dota players have always been the type to make mountains out of shallow craters

Which part of 'fully controllable' did you not understand? Are you just being obtuse on purpose now?

hey man you're the one who thinks that an extra right click is some kind of genius design

[Tensei]

so instead of playing dota I'm suddenly playing an rts

I'm not exactly sure why adding an extra step to last hitting (i.e instead of last hitting you make a minion that you then control and uh last hit with) is apparently a super cool and funky fresh thing but then again dota players have always been the type to make mountains out of shallow craters

hey man you're the one who thinks that an extra right click is some kind of genius design

No, you're still playing DotA. Minion controlling heroes have existed almost as long as the map itself, and are as much a part of it as last hitting and denying.

That said, I didn't even say anything about last-hitting with your minions, I gave two examples of what you can do with minions by multitasking, namely pushing a lane faster, and having your minions farm the jungle by themselves. In the case of Broodmother your minions are much more about quantity than quality, but there are heroes with minions that have active skillsets of their own, which you can use to complement your heroes skills in ganking, teamfights and the like.

I think the fact that you had such trouble wrapping your head around the concept (as you still seem to misunderstand it) says enough about how limited the scope of LoL champion designs is.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Tensei

[Bleck]

That said, I didn't even say anything about last-hitting with your minions, I gave two examples of what you can do with minions by multitasking, namely pushing a lane faster, and having your minions farm the jungle by themselves.

or maybe I can just attack somebody with them and actually play the game

maybe lol's champ design is based around the idea that a lot of people care less about what a champ can do and what a champ actually does

maybe this thread can go ten pages without tensei turning it into a talk about how dota is totally better you guys look how pro I am, who knows

[zircon]

I actually enjoy LoL slightly more than Dota2 right now but again, really, these champion designs are not good. The new champ's abilities are VERY very rehashed. There are so many other mechanics they could be using. They've proven with certain champs (Orianna, Brand, Twisted Fate, Shaco, Heimerdinger) that they can use some unusual mechanics, but they prefer to release very bland champions instead. I guess people prefer the dumbed-down ones like Wukong over interesting ones like Ori.

[Dexie]

I actually enjoy LoL slightly more than Dota2 right now but again, really, these champion designs are not good. The new champ's abilities are VERY very rehashed. There are so many other mechanics they could be using. They've proven with certain champs (Orianna, Brand, Twisted Fate, Shaco, Heimerdinger) that they can use some unusual mechanics, but they prefer to release very bland champions instead. I guess people prefer the dumbed-down ones like Wukong over interesting ones like Ori.

Two of those champions (TF and Heimer) are in a really bad place right now, and until recently Shaco was right there with them. Orianna on the other hand, was extremely OP until her nerfs, now she's just pretty average. Brand, I don't think there's really anything that unusual about him.

If I had to guess, I would say Riot sticks with their tried and true mechanics because they're honestly not that great at balancing as a whole, and it's just easier for them to attempt to balance someone who's got blander mechanics as opposed to someone with wilder ones.

[Tensei]

or maybe I can just attack somebody with them and actually play the game

maybe lol's champ design is based around the idea that a lot of people care less about what a champ can do and what a champ actually does

maybe this thread can go ten pages without tensei turning it into a talk about how dota is totally better you guys look how pro I am, who knows

You're the one who brought up Dota 2 in this thread in the first place, I'm just defending a game that you haven't even played.

And yes, you can indeed attack use your minions to attack someone. Or farm, or push, whatever your heart desires. That's the whole point. You keep saying that you'd 'rather play the game' but I don't see how having multiple controllable units even relates to that.

Have you actually read Zileas' post on champion design? It's a pretty interesting read, but there are a lot of points I disagree with, one of them being that he believes a skill needs to have a clear, optimal use (i.e. using Annies Q to lasthit minions) instead of a 'conflicted purpose' like a high damage single-target nuke that also has a slow attached. I think that's exactly where the lack of inventive skills stems from, as they're basically restricting versatility in skills.

Then there's the whole 'burden of knowledge' and 'anti-fun' can of worms, but it's probably better to not even talk about that.

[The Author]

I think the problem also stems from the fact that the player base doesn't really explore each skill set, but that's something in every game.

You get wikis, and pages saying "do this to win" but all that means is that everyone is cookie cutter in the end.

Using similar abilities in different characters is one way to force players to adapt. Just having an ability scale off of life instead of AP or AD is good enough to spawn a new approach to the game and a new playstyle. But they can't very well have a character change to allow that variety now can they?

[Dexie]

I think the problem also stems from the fact that the player base doesn't really explore each skill set, but that's something in every game.

You get wikis, and pages saying "do this to win" but all that means is that everyone is cookie cutter in the end.

Using similar abilities in different characters is one way to force players to adapt. Just having an ability scale off of life instead of AP or AD is good enough to spawn a new approach to the game and a new playstyle. But they can't very well have a character change to allow that variety now can they?

They do try that though. Vlad's W scales off of life, Rammus and Malphite have abilities that scale from armor, Ryze scales from mana...I'm sure I'm forgetting someone here.

[kitty]

They do try that though. Vlad's W scales off of life, Rammus and Malphite have abilities that scale from armor, Ryze scales from mana...I'm sure I'm forgetting someone here.

Galio's passive.

[Dexie]

I was thinking mainly just abilities, but yeah, I suppose that counts too.

EDIT: Why does every single Volibear player have play him as a jungler, and terribly at that? Every one I've played with have completely ignored ganking and just ran around in the jungle like an idiot. Such is life on patch day, I suppose. :/

Edited November 30, 2011 by Dexie
Fuck bears.

[Bleck]

keep in mind that jungling is for the sololane, ganks are just a pleasant side-note

if a guy can spend all of early game in the jungle and the laners can not be dumb and feed, good on him

volibear is a really good jungle, too

also

sorry riot games but I'm giving up on dominion until you either balance the champs or increase the number of bans

[Dexie]

keep in mind that jungling is for the sololane, ganks are just a pleasant side-note

if a guy can spend all of early game in the jungle and the laners can not be dumb and feed, good on him

volibear is a really good jungle, too

also

sorry riot games but I'm giving up on dominion until you either balance the champs or increase the number of bans

When I'm 2v1ing against Akali and Tryndamere and can't leave my tower at all without getting blown up, it would be nice to get a gank or two here or there. Just saying.

[Bleck]

not leaving the tower is how you play 2v1

if you're leaving the tower and dying it's not because the jungler isn't ganking, it's because you're doing something wrong/playing as the wrong champ to be in a solo lane

[The Author]

And if the match up is wrong, tell your teammates and switch. You don't have to stay silent, some champions are just better against other matchups. Lord knows with a well played Anivia, a Tryn / Akali combo isn't really a threat and you can rake in the gold from under the tower.

[Dexie]

And if the match up is wrong, tell your teammates and switch. You don't have to stay silent, some champions are just better against other matchups. Lord knows with a well played Anivia, a Tryn / Akali combo isn't really a threat and you can rake in the gold from under the tower.

Trust me, I tried that. But when you're stuck with a pair that duo queued together and won't break up their lane, and a mid that was from brazil, not much you can do.

[The Derrit]

Trust me, I tried that. But when you're stuck with a pair that duo queued together and won't break up their lane, and a mid that was from brazil, not much you can do.

well that sucks

[relyanCe]

anyone else enter the tshirt design contest?

[prophetik music]

haha awesome

[zircon]

http://www.sporcle.com/games/n3rdychick/league-of-legends-champions-updated-periodically

I got 82/88 :[