League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[BardicKnowledge]

In the end it should be specific situations that warrant an item's use but this game just isn't there yet. Maybe if we had Lightbringer in Summoner's Rift it would be a different story. I see that item being good on almost any part of your team so it'll create diversity in both team comp as well as strategy and overall team build.

Lightbringer will be brought into Summoner's Rift when the stealth rework is done, just wait. I agree that there are just not enough developments to the metagame to warrant large variance in item builds based on opposing team comps yet...

...but that situation would be rectified with the inclusion of more items with good supporting active abilities e.g. Shurelya's.

[Garian]

Not rage at all, and not trying to call anyone out either! ...but people who play at where I am at in matchmaking have no idea how to actually play the game and yet they think that if they follow what the "pros" do then they'll magically do well.

I'm what you'd call a casual hardcore player, and find it hilarious that people are bound and determined to reinforce the meta when there are quite a few interesting possibilities that would trip up the other team, and could even work in solo/duo queue (even at the chagrin of 1 to 3 other members of the team). But I've learned that people are generally a lot dumber than I used to think so I just play ranked to try to measure where my personal skill is anyway, not to CLIMB THE LADDER OH MAH GAH. It's funny to see Elementz Tier List Purists rage when you decide to play Supportcrank though. And then go 3/1/16 and feed your carry bottom all the kills.

The game is still fun even with the flaws, and I definitely recognize that I'm not very good at it. I just like to have fun and damn everyone else

Also you can see your win/loss at the end of every game, FYI.

[eternal Zero]

Lightbringer will be brought into Summoner's Rift when the stealth rework is done, just wait. I agree that there are just not enough developments to the metagame to warrant large variance in item builds based on opposing team comps yet...

...but that situation would be rectified with the inclusion of more items with good supporting active abilities e.g. Shurelya's.

You're thinking small time, Bardic! Lightbringer will eliminate jukes into the jungle. Think of a Janna tornado that reveals the entire team that you previously wasn't sure were there.

Also you can see your win/loss at the end of every game, FYI.

I was talking about my hidden ELO rating and kill/death ratio.

[zircon]

I'd like to pick your brain about a few things Zero, build-wise. First off, Cait, Vayne, Graves bot. What's your preferred order, runes and masteries? Here's what I do:

* 6 Arpen reds

* 3 AD reds

* 3 AD quints

* 9 mana regen/lvl yellows

* 9 MR/level blues

Here's my reasoning. Arpen is better than AD later on, but raw AD helps last hitting + harassing early, and improves AD-scaling skills. I play cautiously enough to avoid getting harassed much and thus don't bother with armor or flat MR. On the other hand, I like to spam harass and need a constant stream of mana to do so. Exception is having a Soraka lanemate but I can't often depend on that.

* 21/0/9 masteries

Same reasoning as above. I like offense and the extra mana from Utility.

Buildwise, I almost always start with Doran's Blade, which with the above masteries puts me at 70-80 starting AD - very healthy. Then, if I'm doing really well, I get BF sword + T1 boots on my first back. If the lane is tricky and I get forced back or die, I will get another Doran's, T1 boots and Vamp Scepter before doing anything else. Next up is finishing IE and Zerker Greaves, followed by either Bloodthirster or Zeal. After that is finishing Phantom Dancer, then Last Whisper. The final slot could either be another Bloodthirster or Banshee's Veil depending on how badly I'm being focused and how much CC they have.

Thoughts on that? I wouldn't necessarily do this on ALL ranged AD, for example on Corki I like to get an early Sheen and build Zerker's -> Triforce -> BT first.

[eternal Zero]

Okay. Here comes my brain. I'm bound to miss something so just ask if you have any issues/concerns/questions.

I believe this to be the best way to do it regardless of how well/poor you're doing. Also remember this is from my mindset: I think I'm really good at this genre. If you've played with me you can be the judge. So like Garian was mentioning. Yes, this build works really well for me. Will it necessarily work for everyone? Maybe? I think the sign of a solid and efficient build that it can really up the game of anyone trying it out so I make mine as such.

Runes:

Mana-based (ie: spamming all game is important)

Caitlyn, Corki, Ezreal, Graves, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Urgot
Honorable Mention: Sona

Note: Sona is a joke because I do this to good effect and a power chord into a TF powered blue power chord is a TON of damage and is just fun.

AD Quints

ArPen Reds - The whole 6ArPen 3AD reds is for jungling. You're gimping your mid/late game by not having full ArPen.

Mana Regen/lvl Yellows

Cooldown/lvl Blues

Non-mana (ie: farm farm farm maybecastaspellforthekill farm farm)

Ashe (protip: max Hawkshot first. No point in levelling volley cause it won't do shit anyway. Farm for the late game), Kog'Maw, Teemo, Tristana, Twitch, Vayne

Note: If you think all ADs belong in the other category you lack discipline. Technically I believe that every carry except for Corki, Ezreal, Urgot, and MAYBE Sivir can (and should) run this version. This also goes for anyone who thinks Clarity is a good summoner spell.

Also note: Teemo really belongs solo top as a tanky dps but he can potentially carry in this style.

AD Quints

ArPen Reds

Armor Yellows (win against enemy AD, tank creep when going for kills, etc)

MR/level Blues

Masteries: 21-9-0 or 21-0-9.

21-9-0 (non-mana)

3 Brute Force

1 Butcher

4 Alacrity

1 Weapon Expertise

4 Deadliness

1 Lethality

3 Havoc

3 Vampirism

1 Executioner

-

3 Hardiness

1 Resistance

4 Durability

1 Veteran's Scars

21-0-9 (mana-based)

3 Brute Force

1 Butcher

4 Alacrity

1 Weapon Expertise

4 Deadliness

1 Lethality

3 Havoc

3 Vampirism

1 Executioner

-

3 Good hands

3 Expanded Mind

3 Meditation

Potentially replacing Havoc with Sunder is up to you. I don't think it's necessary and Havoc will also aid in any spells you're using which even the non-spammers benefit from greatly.

Build and laning assumes you have a competent lanemate (or general support that will come to lane just to ward then go back to wander) that will supply 1 ward in your bottom bush as well as 1 ward in the general dragon area. Best place is in tri-bush on Blue side or river bush on purple side but if you're running a solo-bot Kennen or something it's unreasonable to have the support run so far down river by themselves so general dragon area will do just fine.

General build:

Start: Depends on your lanemate. Absolutely no sustain against an aggressive opposing lane? Get boots and pots.. Running solo bot Kennen? Get boots. Otherwise: The blade.

3x Health Pot + Boots

OR

Doran's Blade

Core: Order you get this is up to you. I prefer normal boots by at least the first time you go back. Then get the 3x blades. Then get Madred's Razor if you can afford it straight up (1k gold) otherwise get Cloth Armor->Vampiric Scepter for lane sustain.

3x Doran's Blade

Berserker's Greaves

Wriggle's Lantern (damage, armor, lifesteal, free ward, better objective taking) I don't care what you think this item is one of the absolute best in the game and it will win you games.

Note: Part of efficiency is using every item slot available to you. This is not the main reason to do this build but it definitely makes me feel like it's close to the very best. You're not wasting item slots and as was pointed out in buying and selling a Doran's Blade you only lose roughly 240 gold which is a wave and a half, or less than a kill.

Now this is where we branch off depending on the hero.

Ashe, Caitlyn, Graves, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Tristana, Twitch, Vayne: IE->Phantom Dancer

For Kog'Maw, Kennen, and Teemo (or anyone on a team focused on winning every map objective hence I do this most often with every single ranged AD hero): Phantom Dancer->IE

For Corki, Ezreal, Sivir: Sheen->IE->TF

Honestly you can probably end most games with what I've just outlined. I rarely get past this point. Now at this point it's totally dependent on how the game is going, what the enemy team is building, and how comfortable you are in your particular game as your team's carry. I'll go over a few of the more popular items and just give a little thought ion each of them.

Bloodthirster - I really like this item because I can get it maxed out and keep it there for a long time. At any point after the core you can add an extra Vampiric Scepter and just hold it until you're ready for a thirster. A thirster is not actually that much more efficient than a scepter and BF sword by themselves UNLESS it's maxed out at which point it's very good for cost.

Atmas/Warmogs - Meh. This isn't your job. That's for your Melee AD carry to build.

Guardian Angel - Can't argue with it. Though if you're feeling like you need this to win you are either not dealing with team fights properly or quite frankly you just need it at your skill level. There is nothing wrong with this but assuming perfect play it shouldn't even be considered.

Banshee's - Kind of the same story. It's a great item. I cannot deny this. Your early game survival comes from the Doran's but sometimes a Banshee's is necessary. In almost all cases I prefer to get a

Quicksilver Sash - This item is awesome but you need some pretty good reflexes to use it properly. If you feel pressured to get a Banshee's step up your game and save the money buying this instead.

Black Cleaver - Good solid item that can be bought in an emergency situation where IE will just take too long and you need more damage than an empty thirster will give you.

Hextech Gunblade - Honestly don't bother. Maybe the old one that gave a lot more stats in general but as it stands the extra slow won't help you and the spell vamp is miniscule.

Frozen Mallet - Solid survival item as well as a great item to keep pressure on with the slow. I like it but don't see myself buying it ever just because there are better options out there.

Madred's Bloodrazor - If you're going to go this item you should replace your IE. It really doesn't synergize all that well with the standard build because all it gives you is attack speed. You already have wriggles for taking objectives and if you really need to deal with high HP then it's more of an issue of your team keeping your targets at the proper range for a longer period of time. I usually only build this on Kog'Maw but even then that's rare because it doesn't help with killing towers at all. This kind of goes for any and all attack speed items in general. Starks? Your support should be getting this for you. Malady? Wit's End? Ionic Spark? You're not the right kind of hero.

Last Whisper - Only to be used in super lategame when you're piercing more armor than a full cleaver stack will give you. You're on your own to do the math. I just never buy this item.

Now for some theorycrafting. So right now I know am super confident in my solo bot Kennen. I've yet to even come remotely close to failing even against a hyper aggressive support like Sona, Alistar, or Leona. The only other hero that can manage to do this that I've thought of is Ezreal but he has a limitation that Kennen does not: mana. He's got the ranged harass/farm and an even better escape cause he blinks. So far I think it'll only work on the Purple side where you get access to an early blue due to a non-blue dependent jungler. I have yet to test this but the next time I get all the usual Badposters in a game where we end up not only on Purple but where we're half expecting it and I'm playing Ezreal as our AD carry I'll do it. I tend to play the other two solo lanes most often but I'll report back if it ever gets tested. I really want it to work seeing that Pulsefire Ezreal looks AMAZING.

Also that was actually kind of fun to type out. I'd be willing to do this kind of post for any of the subtypes but just thinking off the top of my head I think it's really just hero-dependent rather than archetypical except core for every AP mid is 2x Dorans Rings and Boots into main build but I personally go 3x Dorans Rings but that's for another post.

Edited January 26, 2012 by eternal Zero

[Bleck]

I suddenly discovered that Talon is fucking amazing!

[BardicKnowledge]

Let's talk about those AS / on-hit items such as Malady, Wit's End, Ionic Spark, and Madred's Bloodrazor. Who should be getting them, and when to get each one?

Malady imo if you can follow up with a good spell to utilize the shred -- if you can't (Irelia, for example), then the others are better.

Wit's End is essentially a Hexdrinker replacement -- the one you get when you need damage and MR if your damage comes from AS.

Ionic Spark is more efficient for jungling and wave-clearing...but by the time you get it that shouldn't be an issue. Unsure when to pick this up still.

Madred's Bloodrazor: I only get this when the other team's tanks stack too much armor (in that their damage will suffer even if they survive). Makes killing someone with Randuin's, Wriggles (don't forget about that armor! Wriggles too good), Warmogs, and GA possible (last, obviously). Situational at best though, as it IMO is too expensive to be a main item for anyone.

Note: Black Cleaver is an on-hit item, but IMO it is an IE replacement, and most heroes who pick up the above are not heroes who get IE, so I didn't put it in the list. Feel free to debate this one with me...

Now: Who gets these? Note: I only play Irelia and Kayle of the below; discuss!

Irelia for sure, as her W active thrives with a bunch of attack speed.

Teemo / Kogmaw: Probably not the ideal build, but they work well.

Jax makes his ult really good by picking one of these up. Nice synergy w/ Ionic Spark.

Kayle gets more mileage out of E with more AS, but does she want something beyond Rageblade before buying support stuff? I'd say yes here, others may argue.

Shaco's clone benefits from on-hit effects; which to get?

Twitch makes good use of his naturally high speed burst to get a lot of magic damage out of Wit's End / Malady...

Who else?

[Dexie]

The only character I bother getting Bloodrazor on is Kog'maw, as a late game item, because it works so well with his W.

I can't really find a reason to justify it outside of that. That 4% health really isn't that much, when you throw in the fact that the champions it should be best are are usually going to have a relatively high magic resist. Even if they don't have that much magic resist when you grab it, most people are going to be smart enough to get a Banshee's at some point anyway.

The main problem, I think, is that it's too expensive for what it does. I wouldn't mind at all if Kitae's Bloodrazor made it over from Dominion, as either a replacement or an alternative.

[eternal Zero]

Don't forget that there are diminishing returns for stacking percentages onto each other so it's not amazing but it is pretty darn good on Kog'Maw. The biggest issue is the overlap with Wriggles in terms of utility and the sheer cost of it.

So. Malady. I like this on guys that prefer to do damage and have another spell that the MR shred will help. Best examples are like Teemo (only in shroom field), Kog'Maw (that ult, that puke), and Twitch. Some melee users could benefit like Shyvanna but they prefer Wit's End because their first intermediate ASPD item should confer some form of survivability.

Wit's End: Best used for those that get in and do some damage while wanting to be tanky to spellcasters. This is Irelia, Shyvanna, Volibear, etc. I wouldn't call it a Hexdrinker replacement.

Hexdrinker is only really used on those that only want AD and don't really care too much about their ASPD. Best example is Riven. It gives her an additional shield as well as powering all of her abilities.

Ionic Spark: I like this jokingly on someone like Volibear but you sacrifice too much HP but I really like this on Shyvanna. Your dragon form will give you the necessary armor and MR, you're in the midst of the fight so you're going to proc onto multiple targets (at which point it becomes more cost efficient than Wit's End). Straight HP boost albeit small is better in general but you're giving up a lot of ramping MR.

So now to the hero specifics:

Irelia benefits more from Phage and on hit slow into Wit's End into things that make her harder to kill. I don't see her as an attack speed carry. She's a tanky dps that has a focus on APSD as opposed to say Nasus or Wukong who have a more burst focus.

Teemo: Wriggles into Phage into Wit's End into Frozen Mallet into Randuin's/FoN into lategame Madred's. Be that annoying tanky DPS with the global "FUCK YOU TEEMO YOU PIECE OF SHIT" taunt.

Kogmaw: I've already mentioned my ideal Kog'Maw build but I will say my previous Kog'Maw build (and what's still my solo-mid build cause I haven't playtested another in a while) is Malady->Madred's Bloodrazor->Banshee's/Quicksilver/GA. It's more of a ganking build than a carrying build though.

Jax needs to build tankier now. You still get a couple damage items (Hextech revolver and rageblade) but with the change to his spells I think a tankier Jax is more of a credit to the team.

Kayle...meh. I'd go a similar build to Teemo. I really hate Nashor's Tooth and I think it's an awful item but if forced to play Kayle I'd go for Tanky DPS with the ability to support. Guinsoo's and Hextech just take too much farm that isn't easy to obtain and ultimately aren't that much better than the much easier to build Wriggles into Phage into Wit's End into Frozen Mallet into Randuin's/FoN into lategame Madred's. That's because Guinsoo's and Hextech don't give you any survivability outside of your ult and Kayle kind of needs that.

Shaco wants to be able to solo Baron using his clone tactics. This means Wriggles into Madreds into GA as core with interspersed Phantom Dancer, Bloodthirster, etc. No matter what you'll be squishy so focus more on your damage and mobility.

On-hit/ASPD Twitch is pretty gimmicky because once you burn your Expunge you're either dead or won't get a chance to use another safely. If you must just get an early Malady after Wriggles but then continue onto a typical AD build.

There are other heroes and items but I'll stick to just talking about what's been brought up to save thinking and time on my end.

Edit: Right. Shyvanna (and to a lesser extent Volibear). She's a special case. She loves having all of these items and greatly benefits form being able to have essential triple strikes (attack xx twin dragon strike). In general I like any of the mentioned items on her so just build to the situation but she's the only hero I'd seriously consider using an Ionic Spark on at the moment and she benefits from Bloodrazor a lot more than most because of her awesome triple strike.

Also as a side note I think that Shyvanna, Wukong, Teemo, Gankplank, and Singed are the best solo tops in the game in that order. But this is most definitely personal preference as these are my go-to solo top characters and is up for debate.

Edited January 26, 2012 by eternal Zero

[zircon]

At first I thought that AD build was really weird. The cost of Zerker Greaves, 3x Doran's and Wriggle's would be 3945 gold, not counting pots and wards. For that you're getting 2 movements, 25% AS, 300 health, 24% lifesteal, 30 armor, 53 AD and extra creep damage/free ward. Not too bad, but what about your next 2k gold? At most you're just getting the BF Sword, so that's another 45 AD.

My build is typically Doran's, Zerker, BF Sword, Vamp Scepter first. That's 3475g. Once I'm at 6k gold, I have my Infinity Edge. So comparing the two builds:

25% AS, 300 health, 24% lifesteal, 30 armor, 98AD, extra creep dmg/free ward.

vs.

25% AS, 100 health, 15% lifesteal, 90 AD, 25% crit, +50% crit damage.

This was definitely a surprise comparison. Your build offers quite a bit more utility + survivability and more lifesteal. It IS less damage overall when you factor in crit, but a lot better for farming. I should start doing this. I guess you start selling Doran's for IE components?

With regards to top lane, how do you feel about Tryndamere, Ryze and Gangplank? Tryn seems to be a very hard counter to a lot of tops, since he just does so much damage and has excellent sustain. He can force people out at level 1-3 better than most anyone. Ryze is fairly safe (hard to kill) and a great pusher/farmer when he wants to be. Gangplank is one that I often see dominating, but I can't seem to do well with him at top. It's not all that hard to harass him and he's very mana-reliant.

Edited January 27, 2012 by zircon

[eternal Zero]

At first I thought that AD build was really weird. The cost of Zerker Greaves, 3x Doran's and Wriggle's would be 3945 gold, not counting pots and wards. For that you're getting 2 movements, 25% AS, 300 health, 24% lifesteal, 30 armor, 53 AD and extra creep damage/free ward. Not too bad, but what about your next 2k gold? At most you're just getting the BF Sword, so that's another 45 AD.

My build is typically Doran's, Zerker, BF Sword, Vamp Scepter first. That's 3475g. Once I'm at 6k gold, I have my Infinity Edge. So comparing the two builds:

25% AS, 300 health, 24% lifesteal, 30 armor, 98AD, extra creep dmg/free ward.

vs.

25% AS, 100 health, 15% lifesteal, 90 AD, 25% crit, +50% crit damage.

This was definitely a surprise comparison. Your build offers quite a bit more utility + survivability and more lifesteal. It IS less damage overall when you factor in crit, but a lot better for farming. I should start doing this. I guess you start selling Doran's for IE components?

Thanks for doing the math. You know I just play this game by intuition so I knew that my build gave more utility but I just never took the time to prove it mathematically. In a higher level play utility means a lot more than raw damage. Also whether or not you sell Doran's before you're forced to depends on you! Need the health? Keep them as long as possible. Need the damage faster or have 200 less gold than you need? Sell 'em. In general I prefer to keep them as long as possible.

With regards to top lane, how do you feel about Tryndamere, Ryze and Gangplank? Tryn seems to be a very hard counter to a lot of tops, since he just does so much damage and has excellent sustain. He can force people out at level 1-3 better than most anyone. Ryze is fairly safe (hard to kill) and a great pusher/farmer when he wants to be. Gangplank is one that I often see dominating, but I can't seem to do well with him at top. It's not all that hard to harass him and he's very mana-reliant.

Tryndamere is a gamble. He either does really well or gets zoned out so hard before level 6 that he's gimped for the rest of the game. Don't forget what I said earlier: utility > raw damage.

Ryze belongs mid. I mean he could run top but in the end he's not going to harass someone like Shyvanna or Wukong out of lane so they'll end up unhindered in their farming.

The key to Gankplank is to decide what you want: aggression or farm. You can't have both, in my opinion. Every parley needs to be for killing creep or harassing. Having a jungler give you blue isn't so bad either. Plank is squishier than most of the tops and isn't truly ranged so you'll need to make sure you're safely warded up and I think a lot of it has to do with build. I personally prefer Atmog's because being squishy coming out of top lane in general is a poor choice. TriForce is fine for later in the game. IE is pretty solid after Atmog's which should be after a Wriggles in most cases.

Edit: Also first trial run of solo bot Ezreal lost to Sona/Graves pretty badly. More testing required but I'm not too optimistic which saddens me. Main thing I forgot was that Kennen's spells without AP still do solid damage. Ezreal doesn't output too much damage without someone else backing him up.

Edited January 27, 2012 by eternal Zero

[Dexie]

So, the big thing on the LoL forums the past couple days has been "Last hitting is an archaic mechanic". People are wanting Riot to remove last hitting from the game and rework the way you get gold/exp from minions.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1723873

This is the thread that started it, and now it's the main topic the discussion forum is filled with. It's a bit long of a read, but what do you guys think?

I think he's got some neat ideas. I actually really like the idea of 'risk zones' that give you more minion gold the closer you are to the enemy base, that would encourage early tower pushing more.

[Garian]

Not sure if troll.

The concept is retarded, historically in any type of strategy game, you get a general advantage for killing the enemy, and your units gain commendations for surviving long enough to kill enough units and being rewarded with extra damage or health or whatever. Saying that "last hitting is archaic" for an anachronism such as DotA (and its ilk) is like saying "cheese is moldy milk." The game isn't Monday Night Combat, after all.

This is a purely mechanical skill that requires the user to

focus their attention on each minion health bar and attempt to hit them right before they die. First, this is a counter-intuitive to any player just starting out in League of Legends, so that should raise a red flag right off the bat. When the objective of the game is to siege your enemy’s base, is a mechanic that promotes running in circles to get the last hit, rather than fighting with your army good?

all I'm seeing here is "wah I can't multitask." If he really wants to throw a pile of corpses against the towers like the creeps do, I'll enjoy reporting him for feeding. The claim that leaving the lane causes one to miss out on farm is legit, but the psychological advantage of a successful gank should outweigh any loss of gold in lane, unless one leaves a hard carry to free farm (which should never happen).

The argument against 0cs support is pretty laughable too, because that's merely an expression of highest level efficiency at play. The supports that are chosen are picked because they have some form of interrupt and sustainability without items (it seems to me that most support champs get their max CC duration at early ranks of their abilities, so they literally just have to stunbot or whatever *coughtariccough*), so they don't need to even do good damage if they're babysitting. Which is utterly ridiculous in my opinion but whatevs, so far Riot's design team has been disappointing me fairly consistently since Shen was announced (although thankfully not entirely).

The skill-gate whining is really pretty silly, because last hitting is ridiculously easy in the game. It's pretty easy to last hit fairly successfully and harass with experience, although I'm not good at it at all (except in bot games!) . As much as I dislike the concept of masteries and runes, being able to give people a chance to learn the game before getting into serious matchmaking with veterans is a very nice change. IMO, people who haven't learned last hitting should not worry about things such as map awareness or warding or calling missing or other advanced topics like when to take Baron or Dragon. There's always room for improvement provided the game doesn't take backwards turns like removing an active part of the laning phase.

As an aside, the whole risk zone thing is utterly retarded. HAY GUISE I AM GONNA PUSH ALL THE WAY IN AND ALWAYS BE AT RISK OF A GANK SEEYA WHEN THEIR JUNGLE IS 20/3 ;) ;)

[Bleck]

historically in any type of strategy game

things being done a certain way does not imply that things cannot be done a better way

Saying that "last hitting is archaic" for an anachronism such as DotA (and its ilk) is like saying "cheese is moldy milk."

riot games has made it clear that their goal is to take the concept of dota and expand it beyond what they perceive to be un-fun or archaic game elements

all I'm seeing here is "wah I can't multitask."

expecting a player to multitask whereupon the one of the most important tasks is something bizarre, boring and extremely simple is dumb

imagine if you sat down to play street fighter, but your character gets more powerful as time goes on, and the only way to stay as powerful as the other player is to also play DDR at the same time

that's basically what last hitting is

psychological advantage of a successful gank should outweigh any loss of gold in lane

ha ha ha! ha ha ha that's funny

The skill-gate whining is really pretty silly, because last hitting is ridiculously easy in the game.

you're doing the same thing with these complaints that people do with shaco complaints; assuming they're something that they aren't and then dismissing them unfairly

in shaco's case, people think they should change his kit - someone like you might assume it's because they think he's overpowered, but no, it's actually just because playing against shaco is really fucking unfun

in this case it's not really that last hitting is difficult, it's that last hitting for the first twenty goddamn minutes of the game is so excruciatingly boring that I have to wonder if anyone who argues in favor of it isn't literally a Hutt who thinks that playing a tune-less rhythm game for twenty minutes isn't the utmost kind of exhilarating

As an aside, the whole risk zone thing is utterly retarded. HAY GUISE I AM GONNA PUSH ALL THE WAY IN AND ALWAYS BE AT RISK OF A GANK SEEYA WHEN THEIR JUNGLE IS 20/3 ;) ;)

yeah man it's so dumb that people think that 'don't attack anything so that your minions get pushed back so that the enemy wave is under your tower so you can farm safely repeat for twenty fucking minutes unless lee sin decides to come stick his dick in your ear in which case you're fucked' is like somehow undesirable in some mysterious way! god forbid people want to actually fucking enjoy playing video games

[Brushfire]

I YAM SHOOTY GlRL~!

[Dexie]

Second favorite skin for her.

Still prefer Secret Agent.

Wish they had changed her gunshot sounds like they did for Twitch's mafia skin.

[BardicKnowledge]

While I'm not a fan of the above linked proposal, I am definitely a fan of how it was put together and presented -- it does not surprise me that the only Riot post in that thread is to link the OP to their job application for designer.

[kitty]

If I didn't want to give a shit about creeps then I'd just go play Dominion.

[eternal Zero]

Once you come up with a better alternative than last hitting then I'll be okay with getting rid of it. Until then I'll keep my archaic mechanic. Granted this is because I've been playing DotA for so very long that I've seen most of these suggestions tried before and none have ever stuck.

Getting rid of the strategic depth to last hitting (range to creep, range to enemy, danger of gank) is like getting rid of frame data pertaining to footsies in a fighting game.

You need to come up with something that works. UMVC3 did it with push blocking.

[BardicKnowledge]

Getting rid of the strategic depth to last hitting (range to creep, range to enemy, danger of gank) is like getting rid of frame data pertaining to footsies in a fighting game.

I like this analogy, but with a sufficiently small distance requirement to get gold from dead creeps (somewhere closer to melee range than most ranged attackers -- Sivir's range or closer), one would still have these range games played -- the mechanic of getting the last strike as opposed to being present when the creep dies (which is different for ranged chars already!) does not change range to creep, range to enemy, danger of gank ratios.

Not that I agree with the .pdf proposal; let's just approach from a different angle.

[Bleck]

yeah I agree that that proposal isn't in itself all that good, but last hitting definitely needs replaced with somethin' better

but yeah if at any point somebody A argues that something should be changed and someone B's response is 'you're just jealous that you're so bad at the game', someone B basically needs to stand the fuck up and go the god damn hell outside

[zircon]

I came up with an idea while playing HoN frequently which was basically like this:

* Creeps have a last hit gold award, and a gold bank. The last hit gold award is about 50% of what it is now. The gold bank is 75% of the present last hit bonus.

* Once a creep drops below 50% health, any damage done to it by a player will proportionally award gold from the creep's bank to that player. If multiple players hit the creep, the gold is split. The gold is actually given on creep death.

For example, let's take a blue caster minion and assume it's worth 25g right now. In the new system, whoever last hits the creep will receive about 12g. However, the creep also has about 19g in its bank which you can only get by whittling down its life. Here's a hypothetical situation with underlying math:

* Creep hits 300/600 health (50% of max health).

* Ezreal last hits creep from 60 health to nothing. 60 health is 20% of 300, so Ezreal gets the last hit bonus (12g) as well as 20% of the gold bank (4g) for a total of 16g.

* But what if Janna did 100 damage to the creep before Ez killed it? In this case, Janna would get 33% of the bank (100/300 health) or about 6g. This doesn't affect Ezreal's gold at all.

* Alternatively, Brand AOEs a creep wave (6 creeps) doing 75% of max health in damage. Since this brings them to 1/4 health (25% below the halfway point) he would get 25% of the bank gold for each creep, or 28 gold. It's still beneficial for him to try and finish/last hit but if he messes up his last hitting somewhat then he'll still have secured some kind of reward.

Obviously numbers can be tweaked, but the idea is to have something of a compromise between the old system and new. For example the last-hit bonus could be much lower if we wanted to de-emphasize that, and the gold bank made bigger. Or the gold bank could start from 100% health instead of 50% (but I think that would encourage too much pushing.)

The end goal is to reduce reliance on last hitting while also allowing supports to get a bit of extra gold by playing a little more offensively and doing some damage to creeps too. It would in particular reward champs like Leona, Lux and Galio who normally aren't fantastic supports, but with this new system would be able to accumulate extra gold through their AOE abilities while the carry still gets last hits. It doesn't detract from the positioning aspect of the game or the tactical decisions.

Edited January 28, 2012 by zircon

[Tensei]

What's the point of changing something that is as fundamental to this particular game as lasthitting? Riot has shown to be incapable of doing something relatively insignificant like removing flash, so the idea of them reworking a major aspect of the game at the risk of alienating a huge portion of their player base is pretty out there.

Dominion has like barely any lasthitting at all, but how many people do you think consistently play that over Summoners Rift again?

If you think lasthitting is a bad mechanic, there are always alternatives in the genre like the otherwise excellent Demigod, or the upcoming Super Monday Night Combat.

[Bleck]

What's the point of changing something that is as fundamental to this particular game as lasthitting?

it's... boring and un-fun? again, the idea that a mechanic is already a part of the game doesn't justify it being a badly designed mechanic

Riot has shown to be incapable of doing something relatively insignificant like removing flash, so the idea of them reworking a major aspect of the game at the risk of alienating a huge portion of their player base is pretty out there.

flash is a badly designed thing in itself, but a lot of the champs are balanced around the idea of flash existing

removing it entirely would require an extensive rework of at least one third of the champions

Dominion has like barely any lasthitting at all, but how many people do you think consistently play that over Summoners Rift again?

are you actually implying that nobody plays dominion because there isn't last-hitting

that's so dumb on so many levels

If you think lasthitting is a bad mechanic, there are always alternatives in the genre like the otherwise excellent Demigod, or the upcoming Super Monday Night Combat.

the argument here I'm pretty sure is whether or not it's feasible for riot games to remove last hitting and replace it with a better system

if your response to this argument is to say that people should go play another game, I don't think you understand the point of the conversation

[kitty]

I came up with an idea while playing HoN frequently which was basically like this:

* Creeps have a last hit gold award, and a gold bank. The last hit gold award is about 50% of what it is now. The gold bank is 75% of the present last hit bonus.

* Once a creep drops below 50% health, any damage done to it by a player will proportionally award gold from the creep's bank to that player. If multiple players hit the creep, the gold is split. The gold is actually given on creep death.

For example, let's take a blue caster minion and assume it's worth 25g right now. In the new system, whoever last hits the creep will receive about 12g. However, the creep also has about 19g in its bank which you can only get by whittling down its life. Here's a hypothetical situation with underlying math:

* Creep hits 300/600 health (50% of max health).

* Ezreal last hits creep from 60 health to nothing. 60 health is 20% of 300, so Ezreal gets the last hit bonus (12g) as well as 20% of the gold bank (4g) for a total of 16g.

* But what if Janna did 100 damage to the creep before Ez killed it? In this case, Janna would get 33% of the bank (100/300 health) or about 6g. This doesn't affect Ezreal's gold at all.

* Alternatively, Brand AOEs a creep wave (6 creeps) doing 75% of max health in damage. Since this brings them to 1/4 health (25% below the halfway point) he would get 25% of the bank gold for each creep, or 28 gold. It's still beneficial for him to try and finish/last hit but if he messes up his last hitting somewhat then he'll still have secured some kind of reward.

Obviously numbers can be tweaked, but the idea is to have something of a compromise between the old system and new. For example the last-hit bonus could be much lower if we wanted to de-emphasize that, and the gold bank made bigger. Or the gold bank could start from 100% health instead of 50% (but I think that would encourage too much pushing.)

The end goal is to reduce reliance on last hitting while also allowing supports to get a bit of extra gold by playing a little more offensively and doing some damage to creeps too. It would in particular reward champs like Leona, Lux and Galio who normally aren't fantastic supports, but with this new system would be able to accumulate extra gold through their AOE abilities while the carry still gets last hits. It doesn't detract from the positioning aspect of the game or the tactical decisions.

I think this worsens the problem of paying too much attention to creeps. Now in order for me to make the most money, I need to hit creeps as much as possible versus only last hitting.

The other problem with this system is that champions like Shyvana become advantaged. Shyvana already can just stand on creeps with W on and kill them if they're low enough health. With this system she can stand on them and gain gold no matter what, harass the enemy champion, and deny at the same time. Granted she can already do the latter two but this makes champions with an PBAoE skill even better.