League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[prophetik music]

League needs to keep strange choices available to keep the game alive.

as the resident movespeed champion, i agree with this statement. ap jarvan NEEDS MORE RATIOS! no one can escape my epic-ness.

[Nabeel Ansari]

My favorite is AP Xin.

Solo towers all day.

[The Derrit]

just give xin a rageblade and you win the game

like seriously the ap ratio on w is so high and rageblade gives you way too much ap in about .nothing seconds

[relyanCe]

if you want to win games, feed your yasuo

it doesn't matter if he's complete shite

feed him and you win

[Ryan Jobson]

Jax has been pissing me off lately. I consider him to be pretty OP since most games people pick Jax and every game he seems to dominate. If Jax is on my team, we win. If Jax is on the other team, he's usually smacking a bitch or two top lane and dominating them both.

Story time: I remember a couple nights ago trying to help Nasus gank top as Nocturne, and Jax was at almost half hp. We came in and blew both our ults and cooldowns. Jax went for me first and did his bs jump attack on me which of course took away 2/3 of my health. I was dead in in 3 seconds. Nasus nearly got him and they were both low on hp. Jax pretended to go into the bush and tp and I was spamming Nasus to go back and heal. He used a couple pots and started to push again. Jax jumped out of the bushes with his 150hp and dominated the now half-health Nasus in 2 seconds. GG.

His dueling skills are far superior than any other champion IMO.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Jax has been pissing me off lately. I consider him to be pretty OP since most games people pick Jax and every game he seems to dominate. If Jax is on my team, we win. If Jax is on the other team, he's usually smacking a bitch or two top lane and dominating them both.

Story time: I remember a couple nights ago trying to help Nasus gank top as Nocturne, and Jax was at almost half hp. We came in and blew both our ults and cooldowns. Jax went for me first and did his bs jump attack on me which of course took away 2/3 of my health. I was dead in in 3 seconds. Nasus nearly got him and they were both low on hp. Jax pretended to go into the bush and tp and I was spamming Nasus to go back and heal. He used a couple pots and started to push again. Jax jumped out of the bushes with his 150hp and dominated the now half-health Nasus in 2 seconds. GG.

His dueling skills are far superior than any other champion IMO.

All this sounds like is a case of neither of you building any tank items; Jax should not be able to quickly kill Nasus or Nocturne, even if he runs full AD or penetration runes/masteries. It should take a bit of time before your health hits 0.

Also, a fear from Nocturne and a Nasus wither should've rendered him completely helpless, as long as you chained the CC and didn't do it at the same time.

[zircon]

Jax carries pretty hard if he gets fed and farmed. With a gold and level advantage he can certainly beat a lot of other champions, especially jungle Nasus who has a weak early and midgame. But he's not impossible to deal with either, and definitely weaker than he used to be

[Nabeel Ansari]

Any bruiser carries pretty hard if he gets fed and farmed. With a gold and level advantage he can certainly beat a lot of other champions

I was under the impression he meant Nasus top, which shouldn't allow for Jax to get an early game advantage that easily. You have to start fights in lane, away from towers, and then stay in them for exorbitant periods of time in order to let Jax win. He doesn't have that good a burst in early levels, especially not against someone as tanky as Nasus.

He's not a champion that just shits out damage from the get go. You have to get him to that point first.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Neblix

[Ryan Jobson]

I was jungle (Noc) and Nasus was top. Jax did have slightly better farm and had already killed Nasus once. And I do believe because of that he was a level or two ahead. I'm not sure what you mean when you say Jax doesn't have good burst in early levels. I haven't played him in a long time, but whatever that jump-attack move he has, it certainly deals a large chunk of players' hp.

[zircon]

Jax can do some good trades against characters without a shield or high sustain. He has very strong single target damage - some of the most in the game - and is almost impossible to 1v1 even with equal farm. His weakness is that he has no reliable escape and no AOE presence at all.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I was jungle (Noc) and Nasus was top. Jax did have slightly better farm and had already killed Nasus once. And I do believe because of that he was a level or two ahead. I'm not sure what you mean when you say Jax doesn't have good burst in early levels. I haven't played him in a long time, but whatever that jump-attack move he has, it certainly deals a large chunk of players' hp.

PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 60% AP) (+ 100% bonus AD)

This really is not that great against a bruiser/jungler, it's an auto attack plus another half until he levels it a few times, and this number is without armor applied. Unless you're talking later into the game, where he already got Triforce or Iceborn (is that a thing?) and unless you went full squishy Noc and Nasus, should not be doing a 3rd of your HP, unless he's fed, which is not something that's easy for him to get going (one kill doesn't count as fed).

I'm not saying Jax is a bad champion, I'm saying if he really thrashes you, there's a good reason for it. He is not at all overpowered.

Jax can do some good trades against characters without a shield or high sustain.

Nasus has a gigantic passive lifesteal (what, 15% at level 7) that procs on his Q.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Neblix

[kitty]

I would not classify that as "high sustain." Maybe if you let him hit minions all day that would qualify but Andy is talking about trading, not sitting in lane.

[prophetik music]

jax is pretty shitty right now in lane. his ability to aid jungle ganks and finish kills are superb if he can get proper positioning, but a champ like nasus can run him over simply by withering him and Qing him every time he comes over. nasus's mana costs are minimal compared to jax's, and forcing jax to use his jump every time he wants to get some farm means that nasus can just sit in the lane and auto-attack his health back up. this is exacerbated by smart nasus players starting cloth 5 pots (one mana), where most jaxes start with a doran's blade and hope they can auto enough hp back.

if jax gets ahead, he bulldozes teams worse than maybe any other champ in the game except maybe - MAYBE - akali or diana, due to an epic passive and ult, short cooldowns, and his laughably available mobility and AOE stun. if he doesn't get ahead, he's worthless, because every jax player in the game acts like he's fully built after 20 minutes, and tries to solo the other team until the game's over. also, his early game (in the jungle) is tough because he has to build lifesteal early to be able to consistently survive there without blowing all his mana and never being able to gank.

[zircon]

I don't think Jax can bulldoze teams all that well. Keep in mind he has no AOE at all (his counter thing is minimal) and his mobility is unreliable unless he has units to jump to. He is forced to just hit one person at a time. He has no CC immunity or tenacity type effects and no shields either.

[kitty]

Why would he need a shield if he dodges every auto attack for 2 seconds?

[relyanCe]

think it'd be neat if his dodge ability dodged skillshots as well

[zircon]

Why would he need a shield if he dodges every auto attack for 2 seconds?

Not saying he needs a shield He's fine where he is. I just think that champs with greater damage mitigation & AOE tend to be better at 1v5 situations. With Jax, he has to go through your team 1 by 1, 100% to 0 for each person.

[kitty]

True. Though, I do think he eats through people pretty quickly in the hands of a skilled player.

[prophetik music]

I don't think Jax can bulldoze teams all that well. Keep in mind he has no AOE at all (his counter thing is minimal) and his mobility is unreliable unless he has units to jump to. He is forced to just hit one person at a time. He has no CC immunity or tenacity type effects and no shields either.

name a champ you're more willing to go into a 1v2 engagement with. jax has a wall-hopping disengage (better now with the free ward button), an aoe stun that's often up, excellent mixed ratios, and great cooldowns *when he is properly built*.

the other options i can think of that can steamroll an entire team during a teamfight comfortably are nasus, hecarim, shyvana, jayce, and fiora. that is, they're comfortable overcoming loads of CC and still surviving long enough to take several people down with them. jayce, hec, and jax are the only ones with hard cc not tied to an ult, and jax's is half the CD of the other two. he's the only one with a consistent autoattack speed bonus - allowing you to build more damage than you would otherwise - and the only one with a defense steroid.

all that said, he still sucks if you don't get fully built. deprive him of gold and he's worse in the long run than anyone else in that list because he provides nothing to a team other than an aoe stun every ten seconds. at least nasus gets farmed no matter what, fiora and jayce have much higher damage potentials with less cash, and hecarim has two disruptions as well as a heal bonus if your team dishes out damage.

[zircon]

Hmm, well, a few I can think of:

* Akali has her cloud and sick mobility with R, plus AOE damage and even higher single target burst that doesn't require her to just stand there and auto.

* Riven has more mobility with Q/E, a shield, and multiple forms of AOE, plus shorter CD stun.

* Yasuo has tons of tricks, mobility, AOE and high DPS, plus aoe CC.

* Even Zed has more mobility, tons of damage, excellent escapes.

* Tryndamere has insane damage and doesn't die, plus more mobility with his whirlwind and AOE CC to chase down people.

* Nasus is tankier, does huge damage, massive single target CC, two forms of AOE, defense steroid.

In order for Jax to do massive damage to a team he has to sit there auto attacking. He can't dash around, he can't AOE. His stun is VERY short range and on a long cooldown, especially earlier in the game. Sure, he does a lot of damage if he gets fed... so does every other melee carry. He just has to sit there and auto-attack to do anything, and he has to do it one person at a time.

Unless he's in the middle of lane with tons of minions in either direction, his only mobility (Q) is situational, since its unit-targeted. That means he can be exhausted or slowed and there's not much he can do about it. He can't stun at range and has no other CC. Someone like Riven can easily slip away on the other hand.

I'm not trying to theorycraft here. I just don't really fear him at all. I've seen well-fed Nasus' or Tryndamere steamroll a team, but not Jax, because there are too many ways to shut him down. His winrate also does not suggest a particularly OP champ.

[k-wix]

I'm not trying to theorycraft here. I just don't really fear him at all. I've seen well-fed Nasus' or Tryndamere steamroll a team, but not Jax, because there are too many ways to shut him down. His winrate also does not suggest a particularly OP champ.

Jax used to be insanely good - but they changed him a lot - back when they remade his counter strike? A lot of players felt he was overnerfed, as I recall but I think he's pretty well balanced now.

I definitely think he's threatening, but not busted. In terms of that 'Bruiser/Carry' role, I find myself the most scared of Riven. Doubly so when she gets fed. I've seen a well-played Riven end so many games.

[BardicKnowledge]

name a champ you're more willing to go into a 1v2 engagement with. jax has a wall-hopping disengage (better now with the free ward button), an aoe stun that's often up, excellent mixed ratios, and great cooldowns *when he is properly built*.

the other options i can think of that can steamroll an entire team during a teamfight comfortably are nasus, hecarim, shyvana, jayce, and fiora. that is, they're comfortable overcoming loads of CC and still surviving long enough to take several people down with them. jayce, hec, and jax are the only ones with hard cc not tied to an ult, and jax's is half the CD of the other two. he's the only one with a consistent autoattack speed bonus - allowing you to build more damage than you would otherwise - and the only one with a defense steroid.

You are describing two different situations here. 1v2 I am willing to do a lot more than 1v5 (your second paragraph).

That aside, you are forgetting about two big killers, one for each situation. Khazix absolutely loves leaping in, blowing his entire kit, and leaping out, turning a 1v2 into a 1v1 that he can leave (via reset leap) on his own terms if he isn't already fed enough to secure the second kill...where he is one of the best 1v1 duelists in the game due to the increased isolation damage on his Q.

My choice for 1v5 is actually Irelia, who gets additive Tenacity in that situation in addition to a dash that resets if it's used to secure a kill, an extremely long stun, the ability to do true damage to pound through resists, and an ult that gives her effective 40% lifesteal. She's a demon when fully built (in the situation that you allow for Jax) and is the prototypical example Riot gives for a champion that can't be buffed because her kit is too good ("better nerf Irelia").

Edit: It's worth pointing out that no character can secure a 1v5 situation in a game that is anywhere close to winnable by the 5 team, while many, many characters can do 1v2 (given the correct pair) in an even game.

Edited January 11, 2014 by BardicKnowledge

[BardicKnowledge]

Note: I'm double posting because I'm talking about two separate issues, both of which are worth the read.

New red discussion re: Yasuo and other changes -- worth a read! http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/01/red-post-collection-certainlyt-on-yasuo.html

Also in that post, some discussion of Zyra. Zyra (along with Rumble and Sona, according to Riot) is a character that many people, like myself, started playing when she was overtuned to the point of ridiculousness and now is a mainstay among players even though she has been significantly tweaked down from her release state. Riot thinks that she works both mid and support, and I'd agree with this -- they note that she has best in class counterengage and near best in class utility (seed vision is amazing and underused). One big point on Zyra that can be expanded to many other champions:

Zyra is a specialist, who because of her OP state upon release, people think should be a generalist. This is true of many other champions, though in the past two years, Zyra was the most powerful champion so she has become the prime example of this type of case (for season 1-2 players, Kayle before passive rework and Irelia before season 3-4 items fall into the same category). For comparison, Brand is considered a general-purpose mage (which does not mean "better than").

Specifically on Zyra, CertainlyT believes that she should be played much more closely to Annie than Soraka/Sona as a support -- you're not harassing just to utilize Spellthief (underpowered atm, they write) but acting as a mage. Go for the level 6 instagib with Zyra as often as you do with Annie (almost every time), not as often as you would with Lux / Sona (more rarely).

Oh, and lastly they're aware that Annie support needs to come down right now, as she is outclassing all other supports, effectively removing the "support" class (Soraka, Sona, Nami, Janna, Lulu) from the game.

[prophetik music]

who cares about supports, when you can play aram and beep boop your way to victory? i won an aram today as him where we were 3v5 for ten minutes before going full 5v5 for the last five or so.

he is the great equalizer. he punishes those whom do not know how to position. he secured The Ocho.

all hail beepboop. WHA WHAWHA WHA WHAWHAWHA WHAWHA WHA.

[Ryan Jobson]

"ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha."