League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[ArmadonRK]

Lee Sin has always been second best. Not saying this is necessarily good, or bad, but he has been great in that he has maintained viability while there have always been better options.

He's definitely top tier, but far from "broke as shit". Elise, Vi, Pantheon, Wukong. They're more OP by far as junglers right now. Trundle, Mundo, Shyv, Renekton. Better top laners in almost every situation.

But Lee Sin has always held close to the top because of the diversity of his kit, and the mechanical prowess it requires. That's why Lee Sin is great, every match-up with Lee Sin is a largely skill match-up. If you have better mechanics than the Lee Sin you're facing, you will probably win.

And you're absolutely right, Lee Sin build diversity is not great. Which is why these changes baffle me.

-Nerfing his base damage to hit his early game: makes sense.

-Increasing Safeguard cost at early levels to hit his absurd early mobility: makes sense.

-Nerfing his AD scaling across the board: Wait, you don't want him scaling with offensive items?

-Packing all of his compensatory buffs into his passive: Oh, you really don't want him scaling at all?

-Increased Safeguard costs at all levels: And you really don't want to improve his lategame either, I see.

-Removing his execute: It says "Fighter/Assassin" in his profile, Riot. Are you sure you know what that means?

It's not that I'm not okay with tuning down Lee Sin's early game strength, it's that these changes further cement tank itemization on Lee Sin who is supposed to be a Fighter/Assassin. It's that they encourage less item diversity on the champion, and not more. It's that they turn him into a one-trick utility tank with very little incentive to take risks because of the Safeguard nerfs.

For reference, the proposed changes:

http://community.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/jHhmhlGe-lets-talk-about-lee-sin-retune

Edited March 8, 2014 by ArmadonRK

[SkyRiderX]

I'm not gonna lie. These changes are pretty justified and aren't too terrible but i disagree on a few things.

- His Q now scales better late game with maxing it out first and high AD builds plus the new Resonating garuntees higher dmg output early to mid game. Late game that 8% missing health did nothing to tanks cause they were so tanky and anything else would die naturally from the base dmg.

- That safegaurd nerf is gonna really make things harder for him. I think now he's gonna be more support oriented with that move now since it gives him 50 energy back to self cast or cast on an ally.

- Tempest is now physical dmg which is good cause i never knew why it had an AD ratio but dealt magic dmg! It's like shyvana's burnout....it also makes it hard to lane against him because he does high physical and magic dmg.

- His ult though....HOLY CRAP THAT DAMAGE NERF!! 400 LESS BASE DAMAGE LATE GAME! DEAR GOD! AND HE ONLY GETS A 1.0 AD RATIO!?

They added a second part to make his ult deal more dmg if they hit more people but i highly doubt it'll ever add up to the old ult.

[The Derrit]

yeah see, the problem is right now he kills people even with no offensive items.

so now, you have to build offensive items to kill people and risk taking damage, instead of being an unkillable tank, and still being able to kill people.

explain to me the part about that that is supposed to be 'unfair'

[relyanCe]

lots of people kill with no offensive items

have you SEEN me play zac

[ArmadonRK]

yeah see, the problem is right now he kills people even with no offensive items.

so now, you have to build offensive items to kill people and risk taking damage, instead of being an unkillable tank, and still being able to kill people.

explain to me the part about that that is supposed to be 'unfair'

This is exactly what's NOT happening.

To fix Lee they need to nerf his high base stats and base damages, but keep high AD ratios to make him scale well with offensive items.

Instead they've given him horrible early and mid game scaling, so that there's no incentive to build offensive items.

Personally, I would keep the proposed base damage nerfs, but keep his high AD ratios from before. Nerf his base stats to be more on par with other mobile melee champs like Riven and Yasuo. Maybe even swap out his AP scaling on Safeguard for AD scaling, to incentivize building damage over defensive items (like Riven).

Basically, load all his power into his kit and scaling, not passives and base values. A Lee Sin that wants to do damage should build damage. A Lee Sin that wants to do well should play well.

So that even when he's unloading fighter/assassin level damage, he can be killed just as easily as other fighter/assassin champs.

The proposed changes do nothing to fix the problem of Lee Sin having only one viable build path: moar tank. They're just poorly contructed blanket nerfs.

The problem with Lee Sin has always been a Fighter/Assassin kit with Tank values. That's what needs to change, not the inner-workings of his kit.

Edited March 8, 2014 by ArmadonRK

[zircon]

I've seen a LOT of Lee Sins build raw offense. i.e. Elder Lizard, Hydra, Last Whisper in the jungle, or Hydra, Maw, LW in midlane, etc. It seems viable since he is still somewhat tanky even with that stuff. All the more reason why I think he's fine. They just need to tone down the god-tier junglers and tone up some of the weaker ones.

[Bleck]

sometimes I feel like I've been playing a chinese fake version of lol all along where lee sin is just ridiculous and everyone else is playing a more reasonable version where he doesn't have a kit that gives him enormous damage and tankiness and mobility and sustain for essentially no cost

[ArmadonRK]

I've seen a LOT of Lee Sins build raw offense. i.e. Elder Lizard, Hydra, Last Whisper in the jungle, or Hydra, Maw, LW in midlane, etc. It seems viable since he is still somewhat tanky even with that stuff. All the more reason why I think he's fine. They just need to tone down the god-tier junglers and tone up some of the weaker ones.

That's exactly how I build Lee Sin, because I enjoy playing him as more of a high risk assassin than a play-making tank. It also allows him to scale better into the lategame.

I don't think Lee Sin needs much retuning, but I do think his base stats are too high for his kit, and his base damage does make it more enticing to build defensively.

That said, Lee Sin is one of the better-balanced champions around, and it's amusing to me that he has taken retune priority over Elise, whose itemization is so bad it hurts.

[BardicKnowledge]

I've seen a LOT of Lee Sins build raw offense. i.e. Elder Lizard, Hydra, Last Whisper in the jungle, or Hydra, Maw, LW in midlane, etc. It seems viable since he is still somewhat tanky even with that stuff. All the more reason why I think he's fine. They just need to tone down the god-tier junglers and tone up some of the weaker ones.

Building raw offense currently works because of a 1.8x (2 * 0.9) Q ratio with an additional 8% execute. Take that and the high 2.0 R ratio away and suddenly the tank build seems like the only option.

[kitty]

Lee Sin's versatility is what makes him fun to play. He goes from being a highly mobile assassin early game, to a sort of assassin/bruiser mid game, and to a bruiser/tank late game. His ability to play each of those roles at any given time changes as the game plays out. I think people who call him OP and say he "does everything" are sort of right but that doesn't mean that Riot should take away that versatility. That said, I do agree that he has too much snowball potential that condenses all those roles. Those early game base damage nerfs go a long way to separate his ability to do all those things at once.

[zircon]

I think if they did nothing but the Safeguard nerf and maybe a slight number nerf on Q he would be "fine", not that he isn't fine now.. again, he has <50% win rate (48% to be exact). In comparison, Wukong has 55% win rate, Amumu has 54%, Fiddles 53%, Rammus 52%, Vi 52%... these champions all "do less" than Lee Sin but are very frequently better choices. Amumu and Wukong can completely disrupt whole teams and poop out tons of damage. One Fiddles ult will annihilate a whole team, and he can lock down anyone for like 4 seconds between silence and fear. Rammus hard counters pretty much all ADs. Vi can assassinate anyone from an entire screen away and you can never, EVER run from her.

[SkyRiderX]

Just wanted to make a post to all OCR Heroes:

I know we've been skipping practices lately and haven't really played in awhile and I know I've been showing up late(Been really busy and working a lot more hours at work) but I really want to bring the team back together and get us playing together and higher ranked! So remember - Practices are Tuesday and Saturday at 9pm EST!! Please be there and of course all of invited to come and join us!

[Nabeel Ansari]

Do you guys still need subs?

My schedule has more free time next term. (starting 3/24/14)

[relyanCe]

Just wanted to make a post to all OCR Heroes:

I know we've been skipping practices lately and haven't really played in awhile and I know I've been showing up late(Been really busy and working a lot more hours at work) but I really want to bring the team back together and get us playing together and higher ranked! So remember - Practices are Tuesday and Saturday at 9pm EST!! Please be there and of course all of invited to come and join us!

I was just about to post something similar.

Let's get back to it guys!

also, if we get enough subs we should probably just make a second team and double the OCR rep.

EDIT: seriously i need a team to play with because solo is just the stupidest thing ever

Edited March 9, 2014 by relyanCe

[Koriantor]

I just tried out Thresh for the third time. I don't know what's different, but something's clicked and I really like him. I could still use practice, but that'll come in time. He's so stupidly good. Nothing is more liberating than pulling off a sweet lantern-hook-flay combo.

[The Derrit]

teambuilder is an infinitely better way of setting up games and i hope that matchmaking is done this way immediately.

[Nabeel Ansari]

teambuilder is an infinitely better way of setting up games and i hope that matchmaking is done this way immediately.

yeah pretty much

[ArmadonRK]

The Team Builder UI is fantastic. It does need a few tweaks at the moment, though, particularly in regards to premades. Right now, if any member of the premade leaves Team Builder, the whole queue is dropped, which is a bother.

And though I see how it could potentially cause problems, some option to change roles and champs after the fact would be nice.

[relyanCe]

Probably won't make it online till around 10 sorry

[ArmadonRK]

Probably won't make it online till around 10 sorry

I hate you forever now.

[relyanCe]

WELL I'M ON AND YOU'RE NOTderp

[ArmadonRK]

False. We just haven't added each other in-game.

:'(

[relyanCe]

guys guys i finally sat down and figured out riven animation cancelling

HOLY SHIT ITS SO GODDAMN FUN

[Nabeel Ansari]

Silvers have no concept of late game

let me just

go steal their blue

i know they have baron

it's ok

Edited March 13, 2014 by Neblix

[ArmadonRK]

guys guys i finally sat down and figured out riven animation cancelling

HOLY SHIT ITS SO GODDAMN FUN

Heh. As a somewhat frequent Riven player, it's something I've picked up, and I absolutely hate it. I dislike when unintended or edge mechanics become so core to success with a character. (See also: Reasons I prefer Brawl to Melee)

I can't count the number of times I've blown a LeBlanc or an Ahri combo because of mistimed casts and animations, so it bothers me that melee champions like Riven have such different animation interactions than their ranged counterparts.

So, yeah, animation canceling is good to learn, but I consider it something of an exploit and I honestly hope it gets fixed in some fashion. Not necessarily by removing animation canceling, but my normalizing cast time and animation interaction across champions and abilities.

#PettyThingsThatBotherMe

Edited March 13, 2014 by ArmadonRK