midi orchestration and kontakt 4

[mickomoo]

Are there any good (preferably online) guides to midi orchestration, especially any mentioning or dealing with using kontakt 4? Also, for any of you who might use kontakt to make mock-ups, how exactly do you go about achieving realism? Is it better to use the solo patches or the multipatches in the library?

[dannthr]

What you need to keep in mind is that fundamnetally, Kontakt is a software sampler. Yes, it comes with an extensive and growing factory library, but that library alone is not the only reason to get Kontakt, in fact the best sounding Kontakt libraries (aside from the stuff Scarbee puts out) are not published by Native Instruments at all but rather by 3rd party developers who explore the depths of sound and sample reproduction and truly exploit the technology while utilizing top-notch sampling methods.

Having Kontakt means you have access to this breadth of sampled instruments that can take your MIDI orchestrations to the next level.

While a lot can be done with the factory library, it is not the choice of the professional mock-up artist.

With that said, there are a few fundamental aspects to MIDI orchestration that resonate no matter what library you have.

1) No human played note is ever played at the same dynamiic level throughout the note--this means that you need to find some way to control the expressive qualities of the virtual instrument, or to at least force expression into it using some kind of MIDI Continuous Controller assignment.

2) No two human played notes are ever played in exactly the same way--this means that you would benefit from employing some kind of round-robin technique to make sure that repeated notes do not sound identical. This also means that not only making sure that the same sample is not being played consecutively, but that the MIDI orchestrator (you) is not executing the note in an identical fashion (so varying velocity, even if only slightly, varying MIDI CC curves, etc).

3) Humans play notes in a phrase, as if speaking a sentence, which starts at the execution of the first note and plays out without breath until the end where the human takes a breath at the end of the musical phrase--this means that even if no rest is written into the music, a human would take a breath, and as such so should your virtual "performer." Think about the arc of expression as the breath is expelled and consider how that relates to a MIDI CC arc that controls expression across many notes.

Finally, to summarize all of this up: If you only think about a human being (What Would a Human Do?) then you will more than likely find a lot of success in creating convincing performances no matter what instrument you employ. When you master these techniques, then your sound can only get better the better recorded your virtual instruments become (as you upgrade your setup over the years).

The best way to start out is to engage your analytical listening skills and mock-up a piece with which you're familiar and then compare them directly against one another and adjust your version to match the live recording as closely as possible.

Of course this requires you to have extensively explored and understood all the instruments in your palette first.

[SonicThHedgog]

Are there any good (preferably online) guides to midi orchestration, especially any mentioning or dealing with using kontakt 4? Also, for any of you who might use kontakt to make mock-ups, how exactly do you go about achieving realism? Is it better to use the solo patches or the multipatches in the library?

Use your damn imagination.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Use your damn imagination.

Make a fully realistic orchestral song with no previous experience in Kontakt's library and then you'll be able to say that to someone who's only asking a damn question.

Idiots posting aside, I like to use the ensemble patches. My only beef with the sustain patches is that the attack sucks, by that I mean way too slow. If using legato/sustains I would suggest offsetting your entire passage of that instrument by a 32nd or 16th note earlier.

So basically, in the piano roll, move it a small amount to the left. This will make it so that it will already be more audible when it hits the beat, but it's not bad because the stuff before the beat isn't really audible anyway.

[SonicThHedgog]

Make a fully realistic orchestral song with no previous experience in Kontakt's library and then you'll be able to say that to someone who's only asking a damn question.

Idiots posting aside, I like to use the ensemble patches. My only beef with the sustain patches is that the attack sucks, by that I mean way too slow. If using legato/sustains I would suggest offsetting your entire passage of that instrument by a 32nd or 16th note earlier.

So basically, in the piano roll, move it a small amount to the left. This will make it so that it will already be more audible when it hits the beat, but it's not bad because the stuff before the beat isn't really audible anyway.

I did alot of times lmao.

and i'll say it again, use your imagination.

You would think I thought of that myself.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I did alot of times lmao.

and i'll say it again, use your imagination.

Show some proof. Don't post in the thread if you have nothing to offer.

[SonicThHedgog]

Show some proof. Don't post in the thread if you have nothing to offer.

of my first orcha arrangement?

Edit, I ment to say my first orcha arrangment with kontakt.

or any with kontakt?

[Meteo Xavier]

Here you go, Neblix.

http://www.youtube.com/user/sonicthehedgehogxp#p/u/1/Iu2Jw_NlibI

The most surprising part? He apparently speaks fluent English. One can only wonder now why reasonable online communication then is so hard to pull off.

Seriously Adeseye, stop posting unhelpful bullshit. People in this topic are looking for advice and help and "USE YOUR DAMN IMAGINATION" I shouldn't even have to tell you is completely unhelpful. Especially when it comes to a complex subject like midi orchestration, it's bullshit. Knock it off.

[SonicThHedgog]

Here you go, Neblix.

http://www.youtube.com/user/sonicthehedgehogxp#p/u/1/Iu2Jw_NlibI

The most surprising part? He apparently speaks fluent English. One can only wonder now why reasonable online communication then is so hard to pull off.

Seriously Adeseye, stop posting unhelpful bullshit. People in this topic are looking for advice and help and "USE YOUR DAMN IMAGINATION" I shouldn't even have to tell you is completely unhelpful. Especially when it comes to a complex subject like midi orchestration, it's bullshit. Knock it off.

wait how is "imagination" bullshit lol.

I think you need yo use your imagination.

And im not sure why you posted my youtube but ehh ok? unless you think my songs are there, then no. non of those songs use any native instruments vst besides guitar rig..

[Moseph]

wait how is "imagination" bullshit lol.

I think you need yo use your imagination.

It's unhelpful because mickomoo's questions were "what's a good orchestration guide" and "how do I achieve realism with fake instruments," and your response was basically to say "you should be able to figure this out by yourself lol." If that's not what you meant, that's still what everyone besides you thought you were saying.

[SonicThHedgog]

It's unhelpful because mickomoo's questions were "what's a good orchestration guide" and "how do I achieve realism with fake instruments," and your response was basically to say "you should be able to figure this out by yourself lol." If that's not what you meant, that's still what everyone besides you thought you were saying.

"you should be able to figure this out by yourself lol."

Thats what I should had said, dang.... *goes to drawing board aka ms paint.*

[Nabeel Ansari]

No, he shouldn't be able to figure this out by himself. And don't be so bold as to say that without proof that you were able to create a fully realistic orchestration in Kontakt 4 while "being able to figure all of it out".

[Rozovian]

Hedgog, stop being an unhelpful ass.

--

If you only think about a human being (What Would a Human Do?) then you will more than likely find a lot of success in creating convincing performances no matter what instrument you employ.

The best way to start out is to engage your analytical listening skills and mock-up a piece with which you're familiar and then compare them directly against one another and adjust your version to match the live recording as closely as possible.

Quoted for emphasis. It'll also help to learn what the instruments themselves can and can't do, and how ppl write for them. zircon pointed out in another thread some time back that the best way to avoid certain mixing problems is to not write stuff that occupy too much of the same frequency range. Make each part meaningful. Write no more than you need. If not else, you should have an easier time humanizing a handful of tracks and melodies than if you give every instrument five or so simultaneous notes.

And take everything I say on this with a grain of salt, as orchestral music really isn't my forte. This is about s much as I can help with this, not having delved into Kontakt's orchestral palette. yet.

[mickomoo]

What you need to keep in mind is that fundamnetally, Kontakt is a software sampler. Yes, it comes with an extensive and growing factory library, but that library alone is not the only reason to get Kontakt, in fact the best sounding Kontakt libraries (aside from the stuff Scarbee puts out) are not published by Native Instruments at all but rather by 3rd party developers who explore the depths of sound and sample reproduction and truly exploit the technology while utilizing top-notch sampling methods.

I was watching a simple tutorial (albeit the products used are expensive) and even the "dry" samples sound good for kontakt 4. And by the time he was done comparing his mock up to an original it sounded like a high quality library sample. I in fact have little idea of how he got his tone to sound so decent before applying revberb, because out of the box the samples do not sound like that.

[SonicThHedgog]

Hedgog, stop being an unhelpful ass.

--

bwahaha (Bowser.jpg)

[WillRock]

Use your damn imagination.

Knock it off. If you can't post something useful then don't post anything at all.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I love how every thread that has both Neblix and Sonic usually results in a battle.

Anyway, are you playing the notes on a keyboard or a MIDI guitar or something? Perhaps that would help.

[Nabeel Ansari]

I love how every thread that has both Neblix and Sonic usually results in a battle.

Green > Blue

[SonicThHedgog]

I love how every thread that has both Neblix and Sonic usually results in a battle.

Anyway, are you playing the notes on a keyboard or a MIDI guitar or something? Perhaps that would help.

Its that easy , try it XD

Green > Blue

Nice standerds lulz

Knock it off. If you can't post something useful then don't post anything at all.

You just might be to something.

[mickomoo]

I love how every thread that has both Neblix and Sonic usually results in a battle.

Anyway, are you playing the notes on a keyboard or a MIDI guitar or something? Perhaps that would help.

midi keyboard pretty much

[zircon]

Posting here as a formal warning to SonicThHedgog. Don't post in Workshop threads unless you have something truly constructive to offer. This goes for anyone really, but you have been guilty of it quite a bit lately. Plus, if you're going to post at all, you need to spend time on spelling, grammar and intelligible sentence structure. You've had topics locked here in the past because they were so incoherent, so please spend more than 15 seconds on them in the future.

To everyone else: stop egging him on. If someone posts something completely unhelpful, don't get into a huge debate about it and derail the thread. You are not moderators, it's not your job to tell people what to post and what not to. Just report the post and mods will take care of things from there.

[mickomoo]

btw, is there any guides to kontakt 4? I'm trying to learn how to map ATEs to see if that would help me. Honestly, I have no idea how to improve I'm kinda stuck. This is the latest mock-up I've done and honestly I can't tell how to even attempt to improve the sound. The brass, eq-ing in general, and spacial reverb are kinda annoying me... along with any other kinda problems I can't tell I'm having.

[ShrackAttack]

This doesn't answer your question at all about a Kontakt guide, but here is some of my critiquing if you want it.

From my one listen through that track:

-The samples sound atrocious, especially the brass. I know Kontakt brass is not very good, but you can do more with it by layering other articulations on top of each other to beef up the sound. Also play with the velocity/expression/volumes more...everything sounds super robotic. Since it looks like you're mostly using solo instruments with only one layer...I would really recommend against it. Especially for a beginner it's going to sound like garbage. I'd say stick to using whole sections. For instance, use multiple trumpets instead of just one solo Forte piano/staccato patch or an entire brass section to get a point across instead.

-0:46-0:48 you need some kind of transition into that buildup...its just too abrupt and sticks out like a sore thumb. It comes out of absolutely nowhere. If that is what you're looking for, that's fine...but to the normal listener it will just sound weird.

-If you're going to use a source like that and try to do something orchestral with it...you're going to have to add more to the whole mix harmonically (in my opinion) to beef it up a bit. It sounds like you added a couple things, but I only listened through once and don't really remember the source that well. A lot of what is there just sounds out of place to me (either you're using the wrong articulation/patches or its just wrong notes).

-As far as positives go, the initial snare sound comes off fairly decently and the track is a good idea. There's a lot more specific things I would comment on, but I have to leave. Maybe I'll edit the post later.

EDIT: And honestly, it really comes down to being less about samples and more about how you're writing the track. Everything will sound better when its written correctly.

[NinjaFlute]

Learn to use articulations and automations in your DAW to effectively draw out the life of Kontakt samples. I am no expert on the matter but here is an example using Kontakt samples for orchestration: http://soundcloud.com/linjaflu/evening-star-linjaflu-mix

I doubt there will be any guide anywhere. I personally only messed about with the software for years and searched on forums for relevant tips I was after.

[Meteo Xavier]

There ARE guides to MIDI Orchestration. Check out my topic with that topic title - there are about 2-3 books listed specifically for that in there along with others for general orchestration.