Mega Man 2 / 6 - Plant Man in Wily Stage 1 [WIP 7 online]

[Rexy]

Last update - 4 December(see details in latest post)

Yes, this was entered for the second round of the Wily Castle Remix Gauntlet. While I appreciate some of the crits there, it somehow ended up being quite overwhelming when I thought I was already proud of what I had.

But you see, the point is, I want to send it onto OCR. The arrangement, I've already covered by intertwining both themes quite well; what I DO want to do on it though is make sure it sounds its outright best before I even consider sending it off to the judges.

Here's a slightly revised take from the original WCRG version; flute is a little wetter, first part of the flute was transposed up an octave, synth layer of the bass is taken out (sorry OA ), timings fixed in places (most notably on the drums) and some level revisions were looked into.

I'm open to all suggestions possible, I want to see if I can FINALLY get a track on the site that's neither a piano solo nor a collaboration with someone else

(and if there's any way I can actually rake in points for next time I'm open for that too )

[DjMystix]

Awesome mix! I think the flute at 00:27 is very cool but too loud (almost to the point of (but not) piercing). Love the synth lead at 00:50 but I think it would've sounded more powerful with original chords (you skipped a few of them) but this isn't a deal breaking issue. The flute harmony at 1:13 needs a bit of volume boost (also it sounds too mechanical). 01:38 onward is awesome!

Overall, I think the average flute sample is holding this mix back to it's full potential. I too, face a lot of problems working with a flute sample. It's almost impossible to mimic the real damn thing Your synths are excellent! and drums are written out-of-this-world amazing!

[Magellanic]

I'm so glad that you're going to do more on this. I REALLY enjoyed this and feel guilty for not voting on it. I have some feedback and well, its just opinion so please please just ignore me if you disagree but this would be soo good to have posted on OCR because it could easily be posted (in my limited experience)

The flute at 00:28, I can really hear your dilemma. Any quieter and it gets lost but then its too overpowering when brought up. Perhaps adjust the velocities so they're more consistent or add some compression (gentle) to give it a bit more rigidity.

1:36-47 The glock feels a little too weak to have the breakdown lead. It feels like almost like there isn't a lead. Either have it louder or double it with something else perhaps? I dunno

2:00 is brilliant, love it.

In general I am missing the bass a bit. I dunno what is different but its seems less prominent in some places than before.

around 03:14-30 I feel like there needs to be a counter-melody to the synth part just to add some more spice and interest to the build.

3:40ish is brilliant. I love how it just sort of shoots off getting more climatic.

4:00 I LOVE it, so good and the ending is just beautiful

Anywho, that is just what comes to my mind. Even if the feedback just gives you something to experiement with, I hope its of use.

[WillRock]

The problem with the flute is that its too strong in the mid highs. Bring down the mid high EQ on the flute and bring up the lead to a comfortable level. That should help fix the issue.

As for the lack of bass, I'd considering bringing up both the kick and the bass slightly. If the bass lacks bass frequencies then add some to help fill out the low end.

Personally I think that messing around a little with the drum quantizing has done quite a bit of good. It still sounds slightly loose but not terribly so anymore. It might be worth going through your instrumentation to move some midi data thats quite far off the beat closer to it (snap turned off mind you) its annoyingly repetitive work but it works well, and if you do this every time you do a performance, it'll become second nature and ultimately your mixes will sound tighter performance wise. Of course, sometimes you won't need to do it but its always a good idea to check if you can't hear the timing issues yourself.

One thing i've noticed is that your synth lead has legato portamento added on it. That means if the midi data overlaps, the note pitch bends or "glides" to the next note. Automate the portamento so that its not quite as strong in some sections I suggest, most notably around the 3:20 section. I'm not saying remove it, just bring it down a notch, or even better, use it in some parts and not in others... you'll have a really strong degree of control on your bends if you automate the portamento and ultimately, you'll help bring your leads to life.

Hope some of this info helps, but this is pretty strong arrangement wise. Keep at it and mark this as mod review when you're done and i'll swoop in and give it a listen

[Rexy]

Quite a lot of it's helping I managed to host a new version taking in the quick feedback over the past 4-6 hours, and it's hosted here (and will be in the first post soon as well) -

http://instaidgrace.com/freqrexy/junk/rootofallthings-ocrver-wip2c.mp3

Firstly, in regards to DjMystix's concern about the chords (let me say first of all that one of my non-OCR friends LOVES your work particularly with your Sunset Riders and Bayonetta ones ), I didn't cut any chords out from the source; in that part, the Wily melody was on top of the (rather simple, I know) chord progression for the first 8 bars of Plant Man's. Quite a lot of these sections mangle writings from both sources together, so I hope that can be understood.

Anyway, things that have been fixed so far:

* Flute fine-tweaked by cutting 4.5 at 4.5 hz (that precise numbering wasn't intentional xD) and re-levelled into the mix (almost considered the compression but I'll try the EQ first and see how it goes, thanks though Lidawg)

* Flute harmony had samples changed completely. Originally the harmony flutes (a Zebra flute-formed patch) and the solo flute (from EWQL) were two completely separate patches, and with the live performance as well I thought there's no way I could get a natural sounding sound from Zebra; change required.

* Doubled up the glockenspiel part at 1:36 (which was already doubled up anyway with the guitarron tremolo) with a gentle pad pluck.

* Restored the second bass layer, but changed it from a square to a more subtle low banjoid synth. (yes, I forgot to put the fade-out back in; I'll do that in the next version.)

* Boosted the main bass layer's low end EQ by 2.5 at 100hz and applied a low shelf filter to it.

* Boosted the string parts by 6db in the middle of the synth solo. They had a countermelody presence before, just not quite as distinct as this. (volume is restored prior to coming again before the key change.)

* Lead synth's legato portamento is cut overall by 75%. I CAN automate it if I can, but I'm not sure which parts require it the most to be honest.

And that's what I have so far. I'm open to any more crits with this release

[Rexy]

Double post, but I soon reacted with another version. The secondary bass fade was fixed as well as taking into account some feedback from Shinny in the IRC.

Things done here in comparision to WIP 2:

* Lowered the flute by 2db. Shinny approved of the frequency, so that's a start.

* Tightened up the timing for the flute part in its first instance.

* Fixed some string panning (lol picky is me).

* Added a minor synth arpeggio run during the keychange section but just prior to the synth solo at the end.

I'm open to all feedback

[DjMystix]

I didn't cut any chords out from the source; in that part, the Wily melody was on top of the (rather simple, I know) chord progression for the first 8 bars of Plant Man's. Quite a lot of these sections mangle writings from both sources together, so I hope that can be understood.

Understood! Makes all kind of sense now

The mix sounds much cleaner than your previous wip. I still think that flute is just not able to keep up with the awesomeness of the rest of the track. Have you considered any other instrument for replacement? Maybe another synth? But anyway, I do not have any other complains. I adore this track! (and in love with the drums)

EDIT:

wait!!! what is that instrument that you end your track with? a soft analog synth right? It's really good sounding! why not use that in place of flute all over?

let me say first of all that one of my non-OCR friends LOVES your work particularly with your Sunset Riders and Bayonetta ones )

Awesome to know that! Tell your friend I'm glad he likes my stuff; very much appreciated

[Magellanic]

Woop, updates Sounding so much tighter. The synth is sounding a lot more expressive and the glock part at around 1:40 is sounding much better.

Overall much tighter, cleaner and energetic. Loving the arpeggiated bass layer (sounds arpeggiated at least)

I like your style Rexy

[SuperiorX]

Hey Rexy, I've been meaning to comment on this because I did really enjoy this mix. My main concerns with the compo version was that there seemed to be quite the disparity in sample quality. For example, the synth and drums sounded very well done, but the flute and piano sounded very mechanical in parts. The arrangement, on the other hand was great: I absolutely love how you blended the two themes and took some creative liberties with both.

With that said, I think this new version is much improved. The new flute sounds more natural than the original. It's also mixed better than in the original version, as it looks like you did some EQing based on your earlier posts. Unfortunately I think the flute is still the weak link here in the mix. Flutes, and wind instruments in general are just so damn hard to emulate. Wallander Instruments (WIVI) is the only wind library (wind & brass) I've ever heard that actually sounds decent. Their instruments are physically modelled, instead of sample based, so the expression sounds 100% more accurate and realistic. But it's sorta expensive (but there is a free demo on their website if you want to try it out), but I digress. This flute sounds much better, but there are still parts of the flute in this new version that stick out as trouble spots:

• some of the articulations in the 0:24 - 0:46 still seem abrupt. Maybe either reduce some of the attack velocities, or overlap your notes and increase the portamento time so the note rises up to the next note. It might make it sound more realistic
  
• At 1:24 and 1:26 precisely, the little 16th note that rises up to the meet the next note doesn't sound natural. The attack velocity may be too high? Maybe just try a slide up? This problem repeats itself when this Wily theme is repeated later in the song (2:57, 2:59).
  
• The flute section from 1:12 - 1:32, particularly where the beginning of each phrase begins (1:12, 1:22) sound a little rushed, like the "player" is attacking the note too hard or is every so slightly off beat. It's hard to pinpoint but it sounds like the note that plays precisely at 1:12.5 is like a quarter (or eighth) of a beat late and needs to come in ever so slightly sooner so the remainder of the phrase isn't rushed. The same is true for each section where this phrase repeats.
  

The synth at 1:52 - 1:56 also sounds a little shrill. Is the instrument being detuned? Or has too much vibrato? I think the synth at 2:20 has a much more pleasant sound to it.

Other than that, I'm really liking this. And I'm only nitpicking because I really want to see you improve this and get it posted. I hope my comments were helpful!

[OfficialJab]

I can't listen to them, is it just me?

[Nonamer]

I can't listen to them, is it just me?

If you're using Firefox, that might be it. Try IE (*shudders*), Chrome or Safari.

I thought it was well arranged, but everyone else hit most of my main gripes. Especially the wind instruments. They didn't sound as I had hoped.

[Rexy]

Yeah, the flute often seems to be the biggest problem, and I want to eradicate this lead problem completely now.

Earlier this week I had WillRock offering to provide some filtering work; I gave him the flute parts via midi... and waited. Nothing came back; all I got was 'flute and horn humanisation is the hardest thing to do', and to be fair it just got me more determined to try something completely different.

Instead of a natural sounding instrument, for the lead in this version I went completely backwards and looked for synth leads that sound flute-like. The original flute is merely background ambience now, while the Zebra preset HS Bamboozle is now taking the front of the stage.

And SuperiorX; to answer your concerns:

1) I got the demo for WIVI but the keyboard restrictions kept on cutting notes off for the flute parts when I assigned them. And after all I spent on gear in the past 2 months I'm definitely NOT in the mood to spend money on other things right now. So for me, I just want something that works without cutting into my wallet any time soon.

2) Yes, that's me increasing the modulation on the synth to try and give it more of a punch leading into the next flute part. I've managed to loosen it a little bit, but I still want that dynamic transition to be there.

Either way, I just want these lead issues to finally go away; am I FINALLY in the right direction?

[SuperiorX]

Earlier this week I had WillRock offering to provide some filtering work; I gave him the flute parts via midi... and waited. Nothing came back; all I got was 'flute and horn humanisation is the hardest thing to do'

lol, I can't blame him. It is ridiculously hard. I love writing jazz/big band music, but I just can't do it justice with sampled brass/winds.

And SuperiorX; to answer your concerns:

1) I got the demo for WIVI but the keyboard restrictions kept on cutting notes off for the flute parts when I assigned them. And after all I spent on gear in the past 2 months I'm definitely NOT in the mood to spend money on other things right now. So for me, I just want something that works without cutting into my wallet any time soon.

Oh yeah I forgot the demo of WIVI has some annoying keyboard restrictions. It really does sound remarkable though. And yeah I wasn't expecting you to go buy more software, I was just merely pointing out the only good wind/brass library I've found. It wouldn't be worth purchasing unless you plan on sequencing wind/brass ALL THE TIME, or if it was like your job or something.

Either way, I just want these lead issues to finally go away; am I FINALLY in the right direction?

It sounds like you cleaned up that rushed phrase I commented on below, I don't hear it anymore. Those little trill notes at 1:24 & 1:26 (and where that phrase repeats) still stick out to me, but I don't think it's a big deal. The synth at 1:52-1:56 sounds better now too IMO.

I think the flute-like synth sounds a bit better, but now it almost sounds like you wanted a flute, but had no flute samples, so went with the next best thing So I really don't know what to tell you. I'd just go with whatever you like better because wind instrument samples are so subjective, they bother some people a lot more than others. Maybe try asking some mods and/or judges their impression of the flute to see if it would be a make or break thing for the panel? Or find a friend that can play flute and make them record it! But, I guess that would defeat your goal of getting a solo mix posted. Either way, I think this is a solid mix and may already be good to go regardless of if you go with the flute or the flute synth. Good luck!

[Rexy]

Yeah, it's all about the sample now. I'll see if I can figure out to see if it fits okay or not.

Though so far, I got one piece of confirmation so far from OA:

[00:51] <@OA> rexy, i think the sample is fine as-is

[00:52] <Brandon> see there? it's settled

[00:52] <Brandon>

[00:52] <@OA> also

[00:52] <@OA> brandon, don't be a dickbutt

[00:53] <Rexy> lol

Either way, he brought up some sour notes and timing changes that needed to be done and I attended to them. I'm too tired to get to the slides right now, but I'm sure that can be much easier to pull off with this patch rather than the awkward sampling for EWQL. That's what we get for Zebra being so lightweight.

Updated here for now

[SuperiorX]

Sounding good Rexy. The flute (or whatever it is now) sounds the best in this new version. Sounds like it has been EQed a bit better and the layering effect seems more present and up-front in this version. I like it.

And if OA says it's okay, then it must be

[orlouge82]

Yeah, it's all about the sample now. I'll see if I can figure out to see if it fits okay or not.

Though so far, I got one piece of confirmation so far from OA:

Either way, he brought up some sour notes and timing changes that needed to be done and I attended to them. I'm too tired to get to the slides right now, but I'm sure that can be much easier to pull off with this patch rather than the awkward sampling for EWQL. That's what we get for Zebra being so lightweight.

Updated here for now

I've been semi-following the thread here, and I wanted to interject that the song sounded pretty good before (when submitted for the compo), and now it sounds awesome.

And also don't ever get discouraged by how people vote in the compos. I can't figure out why some teams are doing so much better than others, but I certainly don't think that the either the enjoyability or quality of the song has been the determinative factor so far.

[Rexy]

Yeah, from what I'm noting either they want their source melodies to be clearer or they want something more 'fun' (hint hint: Liquid Metal ). I'm still going to keep trying my best, even though it somehow saddens me sometimes that even more creative entries get shunted due to unpopular genres.

Either way, I am so late on some light pitch bends in there; I'll get them in this updated wip now:

http://instaidgrace.com/freqrexy/junk/rootofallthings-ocrver-wip6.mp3

On that note, given the pointers from the transition to demos 4 and 5, I believe this is now ready for a mod review. I'm all set for all the feedback I can get

[WillRock]

OA sent me this and I thought i'd just chime in that I thought this was solid. The performances were stronger, and while it sounds a little rough generally on the production the production was generally ok. It seems to lack the polish overall but its not something I can pinpoint or tell you how to fix really

The only major issue I had was that the flute was piercing - I think its in the 2k to 4k range but don't quote me on that. From what I could gather, OA couldn't hear that issue so it shouldn't be a big problem if you can't fix it. Regardless, my stance on this was it was similar to my Slowpoke Shuffle mix - not down right WOW OMG AMAZING, but if you subbed it, i'm fairly sure it would pass. OA agreed with me, so I'd say try and fix that flute frequency issue and sub this beast.

Good luck

[Rexy]

How come I didn't notice that post last night xD

Well, I was hoping to look into that flute again (again, now a panflute) this morning, but after another night with OA's ears last night, one of the things that were indeed tweaked since the last sub was the equalisation of that flute (as well as some further bass polishing). A scoop at that same frequency range you stated was done, so hopefully it should sound that less grating, hehe.

And here's the new version that came out of it. There may be some additional dusting over the coming days, but we don't know for sure just yet. For now, it's there