AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 edit: also I am offended by any game with overly muscular space marines True, usually they're in bad FPS games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Fortunately you have thousands of games with male protagonists to pick out from that aren't overly muscular space marines. Female gamers don't really have that luxury when it comes to sexualized characters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Actually, the thing that's really annoying about these discussions isHas it occurred to you that women speak out against this stuff too? Because they do! "So the dude calls black people niggers, so what, it's not like he's going around murdering them or anything!" 1. Of course they do. Just not nearly as much as men seem to for some weird reason. 2. My point is not really about "sexism", rather justifiably being offended by exaggerated anatomy. 3. Yeah, he's not murdering them or anything....but he's still a douche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Actually, wasn't AngelCityOutlaw the one who said: You know what's sexist? All the internet jokes and shit about women and "the kitchen" "sandwiches" etc. Come on dude, they're just harmless jokes! Are you saying this kind of thing's as bad as violence against women?! Madness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Oh, in response to all the people complaining about the stereotypical portrayal of men as huge and muscular in videogames; let me just remind you that the most popular videogame character of all time is still a short overweight plumber with a mustache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Games featuring women with huge boobs and perfectly shaped asses are just as "sexist" as games featuring extremely muscular, bald space-marines. Neither offend any sane person. alright I'm going to say this one more time before I start calling you an idiot, because it's been said many times before the 'bald gruff space marine' archetype is a male power fantasy; it does not represent the pinnacle of socially defined sex appeal towards women, and as such cannot be construed as an example of "sexism against men" this is called 'false equivalence' and is a dumb argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Actually, wasn't AngelCityOutlaw the one who said:Come on dude, they're just harmless jokes! Are you saying this kind of thing's as bad as violence against women?! Madness! Because those jokes make it sound as though women are inferior and only serve the purpose the jokes implies. Therefore, it's sexist. But you can have a game where you have a female protagonist who can be extremely intelligent, athletic, strong or has any desirable personality traits, but she happens to have a victoria's secret body as well. So that makes it just as sexist as the kitchen jokes apparently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 1. Of course they do. Just not nearly as much as men seem to for some weird reason. Haven't we established that gaming is a male-dominated hobby? Is it not true that there are many more men on this forum than women? Male dominated hobby + Male dominated forum = More men talking about a thing than women! This is a pointless argument to make anyway. So what if more men talk about it than women? If a thing is sexist, it's sexist. It doesn't matter whether a man or a woman points it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Because those jokes make it sound as though women are inferior and only serve the purpose the jokes implies. Therefore, it's sexist.But you can have a game where you have a female protagonist who can be extremely intelligent, athletic, strong or has any desirable personality traits, but she happens to have a victoria's secret body as well. So that makes it just as sexist as the kitchen jokes apparently? Please go read the rest of the thread. You keep rehashing points that have been answered several times already, and are arguing semantics. The sexism stems from the fact that there is little to no variation in the portrayal of women (which mostly translates to making them eyecandy/sex objects), which sharply contrasts with the portrayal of male characters who are all over the place in terms of bodytypes and character writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 the 'bald gruff space marine' archetype is a male power fantasy; it does not represent the pinnacle of socially defined sex appeal towards women, and as such cannot be construed as an example of "sexism against men" So, again I'll ask, what does a female power fantasy consist of? I'm honestly curious here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamer Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Oh, in response to all the people complaining about the stereotypical portrayal of men as huge and muscular in videogames; let me just remind you that the most popular videogame character of all time is still a short overweight plumber with a mustache. That actually made me laugh! Many women in video games are over-sexualized in an attempt to appeal to a predominately male audience. This is irrefutable. What change must occur to repair this image issue is the point of this discussion. This is especially true since the number of females calling themselves "gamers" have risen dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So, again I'll ask, what does a female power fantasy consist of? I'm honestly curious here. Yeah see, the same looks, strength and bad ass attitudes of the "bad girls" in the 90s that people say is "sexist" couldn't possibly be the same as a female power fantasy. EDIT: Yeah really, a lot of these "sexist" images are actually the same kind of image a lot of girls I know WANT to have. It can't just be because they hope it will attract more dudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The second thing that is annoying is people pretending this is like violence against women. ... what? That's not even close to what anyone is saying in thi what the hell are you talking about? Well, since you pulled a picture where a woman's nipples are punching through her suit... thing, let's roll with it. Post a corresponding picture where the detailed outline of a mans dick can be seen through his tight spandex pants in a video game. If you find that picture, then proceed to tell me that it wouldn't make you feel uncomfortable to be forced to look at the character's junk for the whole game. Some men would probably be able to do that without any issue (and some others could even enjoy it), but that would seriously reduce the male gamer base from playing the game, overall... which is analogous to one problem with hardcore gaming and women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Because those jokes make it sound as though women are inferior and only serve the purpose the jokes implies. Therefore, it's sexist. But it's not as bad as violence against women, right? I mean, that's what matters, isn't it? But you can have a game where you have a female protagonist who can be extremely intelligent, athletic, strong or has any desirable personality traits, but she happens to have a victoria's secret body as well. So that makes it just as sexist as the kitchen jokes apparently? Do you realise what you're saying? "Sure, you can have intelligent, strong, driven female characters, as long as they're sexually objectified too!" And stop trying to pull the "but it's not as sexist as THIS" crap. It's pointless. Unless you're discussing a campaign to have all women in the world raped to death, there will always be something "more sexist". That doesn't make whatever you're talking about not sexist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 So, again I'll ask, what does a female power fantasy consist of? I'm honestly curious here. It's an interesting question, though kind of hard to answer for me (being a guy), but I'll give it a try anyway. If you go by things that enjoy a decent amount popularity among a lot of women, you end up with stuff like Twilight and other romance novels, which leads me to believe me that one possible female power fantasy is the kind of relatable, somewhat plain girl like Bella in Twilight, who then gets romantically involved with some mysterious, exotic stranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Post a corresponding picture where the detailed outline of a mans dick can be seen through his tight spandex pants in a video game. I can give you this and it's called Cho Aniki. You apparently haven't heard of it. That pretty much says it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiiii Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So, again I'll ask, what does a female power fantasy consist of? I'm honestly curious here. Chick flicks are a form of female power fantasy (where "power" is not physical, but social/ interpersonal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 On a related note, it really disappoints me that this Soul Calibur 5 ad turned out to be a hoax. Not because I particularly enjoy staring at a guys' junk, but it would have been hella amusing to see the stereotypical male gamer react to sexual objectification of his own gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Let me rephrase entirely what I am saying here. People are taking things that can be perceived as sexist, or maybe ARE sexist....and then exaggerating the severity of it and wanting to believe it's on the same level as abuse. I'm not really referring to the people in this thread as much as I am referring to others. The other thing I'm saying is that ironically the very image that is sexist is actually an image some women would find desirable. There are people out there who feel that game designers, artists etc. should be fucking crucified for adhering to this stereotype of women in media. That's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkeSword Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So, again I'll ask, what does a female power fantasy consist of? I'm honestly curious here. Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, probably. Intelligence, confidence, resourcefulness, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Jade is a great character yeah. Too bad that game will never get a sequel probably. Actually, I think Faith from Mirror's Edge is an excellent female character as well (I wouldn't dare to say whether she could be a female power fantasy though). She has distinct facial features that serve to make her attractive, but not in a stereotypically sexualized way, and she just looks pretty athletic, with an appropriate outfit for the things she does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Jade is a great character yeah. Too bad that game will never get a sequel probably. Don't remind me. :/ It's an interesting question, though kind of hard to answer for me (being a guy), but I'll give it a try anyway. If you go by things that enjoy a decent amount popularity among a lot of women, you end up with stuff like Twilight and other romance novels, which leads me to believe me that one possible female power fantasy is the kind of relatable, somewhat plain girl like Bella in Twilight, who then gets romantically involved with some mysterious, exotic stranger. Chick flicks are a form of female power fantasy (where "power" is not physical, but social/ interpersonal). Alright, so then, here's my next question. What's the best way to translate this into actual video games? Social/interpersonal would lead to adventure games or maybe RPGs, but then RPG characters by their very nature aren't 'plain'. Jade might be a good example of a great female character...or rather, a great character in general...but does the game itself appeal to women? I'm having trouble trying to find the right way to say this, I suppose, but should we worry about the characters not being sexist, if the game itself doesn't appeal to the gender we're worried about offending? EDIT: Is it notable that both examples, Jade and Faith both, are the leads of games that didn't do too well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'm not saying male stereotypes are as prominent as female objectification. I'm just saying it exists. Really though, how many men think of these characters as "male power fantasy"? It's not just me personally, but can people really say most men have this "male power fantasy"? Have any studies been done on how many men ascribe to or agree with this power fantasy? Obviously men are represented in greater variety than women, but does that make stereotypes about men invalid? It seems like some people are saying men should just suck it up. Sexism isn't just about women, there are two sexes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychowolf Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 sexism is the act of treating someone differently based solely on the fact that they're a part of another gender. so being a gentlemen to the girls isn't a good thing? urggh guess i'm gonna have to be a jerk to everyone now and not just the guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Alright, so then, here's my next question. What's the best way to translate this into actual video games? Social/interpersonal would lead to adventure games or maybe RPGs, but then RPG characters by their very nature aren't 'plain'. Jade might be a good example of a great female character...or rather, a great character in general...but does the game itself appeal to women? I'm having trouble trying to find the right way to say this, I suppose, but should we worry about the characters not being sexist, if the game itself doesn't appeal to the gender we're worried about offending? EDIT: Is it notable that both examples, Jade and Faith both, are the leads of games that didn't do too well? Your conclusion about RPGs might be pretty accurate actually. If I recall correctly, Bioware games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect seem to be pretty popular with a lot of female gamers, possibly because they place such a big emphasis on characters and story. It probably also helps that both of those games have a pretty indepth character editor which makes it easier for people to make a character they can really relate to, so in that sense there will probably be some overlap between Twilight fans and Bioware fans. For all the flak Dragon Age 2 has gotten, I have to say that it's one of the few games that made me realize that at least parts of it were specifically created with female gamers in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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