The Music and Business Thread

[Nabeel Ansari]

scuse me, i'm here for the music...i wasn't aware of any commercial guild-like structure on this amateur site.

You indeed are *not* aware. OCReMix has been breeding professionals for a little while now, and it's important to recognize that people are now building their support networks here through discussion in response to events like this. It's not just a site of "amateurs" anymore.

[Garrett Williamson]

It's not just a site of "amateurs" anymore.

To a certain extent it is but you're also right, it's a site of professionals as well.

[theshaggyfreak]

There are plenty of pros and semi-pros around OCR but they tend to mingle in with everyone else. That's the great thing about this place.

[MockingQuantum]

There are plenty of pros and semi-pros around OCR but they tend to mingle in with everyone else. That's the great thing about this place.

Seconding this, as someone who is pretty accurately described as an amateur. Or "hobbyist," if amateur is some sort of dirty word.

If I may, I'd like to ask a question unrelated to the compensation discussion: I'm currently trying to transition from doing sound design for live theater to sound design for video games. I've done some of the latter, but only had one paid gig so far. Has anyone else had any difficulties in convincing potential employers that an artistic skillset from one field will actually transfer to another? I imagine a possible parallel would be like trying to find game composing work when all you've done is film/linear media, though I think that might be an easier sell than theater->video games.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

There is a difference between "doing it for free" and "doing it for less".

Also, in the context of media composition, mid to high level developers, film companies etc. generally do not accept free work for various legal reasons and as professionals themselves, they're aware that other professionals don't work for free. I would also say that saying "I'll do it for free" won't necessarily get you the job or make you a more likely candidate. Actually, in a lot of cases it just makes you look desperate.

I just recently landed another gig writing music for a short film that the director is going to be showing off at film festivals this year. Some other composer offered to do this film for free, where as (just like on his last film) I was charging the director. The kid that wanted to do it for free didn't get the job - I did. Because I've worked with the director before, known him on a more personal level and he also believes that people shouldn't work for free. In short, he has a sense of professionalism.

Saying that "working for free harms the industry" is more of a valid complaint when you're talking about companies or individuals who clearly make a lot of money with their media and have or had some kind of production budget trying to screw composers by asking them to work for free rather than composers offering to do work for free on small hobbyist projects that probably won't go anywhere anyway. Even people who make temp music for films and games are generally paid to do so.

Bottom line:

If you're working with a small startup studio or newbie film maker who aren't really going to make any money themselves anyway, there is little "harm to the industry" in working for free and banking on the possibility that the company may grow into a larger, more professional and financially sufficient outfit in the future. You really can't expect that a bunch of hobbyists with day jobs and professional aspirations will allow you to achieve your professional aspirations and quit your day job can you?

If you want to make any sort of real money composing music, regardless of whether or not that's how you plan to pay your rent, you have to get out there, network and make connections and friends with real professionals and companies that make money and have money to spend. Not prowling internet forums and then bitching when someone offers to take some indie gig for free. If the person advertising the gig is willing to pay money, but goes back on what they said and hires the person who will work free simply because they don't have to pay them...that says something about the professional integrity of the content creator in my opinion.

Now if you're talking about working for free in the context of bands well now THAT is an entirely different discussion and I could rant about how venues love to screw bands, but that's different post altogether...

There are plenty of pros and semi-pros around OCR but they tend to mingle in with everyone else. That's the great thing about this place.

In the fantastic book "Writing interactive music for games" the author (who is also a composer), makes the great point that composers often make the mistake of viewing other composers as the enemy rather than another connection in the business. I know I've helped other guitarists at least once on OCR get some gigs playin' guitar for other peoples mixes when I was too busy too by recommending them to the mixer. I've had similar things happen to me. Help the community out and they help you.

Edited February 4, 2015 by AngelCityOutlaw

[theshaggyfreak]

If I may, I'd like to ask a question unrelated to the compensation discussion: I'm currently trying to transition from doing sound design for live theater to sound design for video games. I've done some of the latter, but only had one paid gig so far. Has anyone else had any difficulties in convincing potential employers that an artistic skillset from one field will actually transfer to another? I imagine a possible parallel would be like trying to find game composing work when all you've done is film/linear media, though I think that might be an easier sell than theater->video games.

My minor in college was theater and I still do sound design for local community theaters. I found that skill set definitely has a crossover into the gaming industry and I do list if in my resume. I'm not sure if it's helped me get gigs but it's never hurt it either. I found doing sound design in games has a very similar work flow.

[Neifion]

Great points, Chris, and well said!

[RoeTaKa]

I find it interesting seeing the different sides of this. There are a lot of facets and I always find myself reading about these topics despite what I know because there's a lot of stories and accounts. I can't tell anyone what they should do but I do believe you should value yourself, working for free has its place but I don't think that's what you should try and do for some big Kickstarter game for example. Friends, small projects, humble and rewarding prospects...I feel like these are areas where working freely are more suited. I spent a good long time doing music for Chrono fan games (which never came to light - of course!) but I made friends and I felt that I was improving so much because it was my passion on the side and such a source of inspiration. Those friends have become valuable contacts and we are working on something for the future, something I'll be very proud to be a part of.

Two years ago I was the composer for a Kickstarted game called Rainfall: The Sojourn. I was actually discovered and asked to be a part of it because I made SNES music. Then we made certain agreements about payments such as royalties which I was comfortable with at first. The creator told me that people kept asking him to be the composer for the game and some offered for free but he kept turning them down because he was happy with the connection he made. I feel like one of the best things you can do is to explain how much someone's project inspires you more than what you can bring. People are happy to list their accomplishments and credentials but if they have any inclination of how good you really are then you should dazzle them about what their project does to you and in turn what that will bring. Of course some jobs are "do as you're told".

Unfortunately this game was cancelled and the creator left with whatever money was left, barely any refunds. I wasn't paid at all. It's a hard thing for me to talk about. On the brighter side someone who read about this cancellation asked me if I was available for work and then I was paid to do a small soundtrack for a game called Almasy Tactics. This person seemed to not really know how much to pay or anything music businessy so we started on a fixed rate per minute of music and when we realized there would be a small soundtrack I clearly explained that I would work for a fixed fee which was a far better deal for him had it just been a fixed rate. He was very happy that I made that side of things easier for him and although he probably would have paid more I had no intention of ripping him off. I own the rights to the soundtrack so I can let people pay for it if they want on Bandcamp anyway.

As a musician/composer you should also value your connection. I've seen a lot of people that don't know how to hire a composer. Were learning business and they are too so we should try to make the hiring part much easier for them. I'm talking more about smaller projects and indie though. Zoltan said earlier he did a gig where he was paid double because the client was so happy with the result, this has happened to me too. Some people have no idea what to pay and when they try they come into the firing range of our debates. Every now and then you get this situation where they were willing to pay more and perhaps didn't even know it; perhaps they didn't expect such a good job. With bigger jobs and more money this obviously isn't easier to consider. Work is work though...you should aim to get the money you think you should earn from the projects you do but if you're stuck against a wall and need quick cash to pay bills or whatever, I wouldn't really hold it against you to go a little lower. I'm suddenly reminded of the film Dumb and Dumber, Jim Carrey was paid millions but Jeff Daniels was paid thousands...it's unfair, I remember both their performances equally but I don't think Jeff was bitter. I don't think this matters at all haha.

I have bid for work before and won a couple of smaller jobs but it's a tough side. I don't really know if it's the sort of real world I could handle - perhaps in the future. Right now I'm happy that I've got friends and contacts that allow me to make what I make and the avenues to progress. It's always good to branch out like others suggested. I have done a bunch of Souls remixes lately which is an avenue I never thought would open doors for me, it just started from loving the games and now it's gotten me animation jobs and tons of exposure. I do get offers for work which are not paid so perhaps I should pass those along somehow. I don't really talk with many composers anymore, ocremix is a whole new breed to me these days. I largely expect to be ignored and I mostly linger here because it was my place for a long time.

I have perhaps not offered much advice or information. Sometimes you don't know how things will pan out. For me, thinking of music as a business is tough, like job hunting it makes me feel ill. But I'm stubborn in my ways and I'll do my darndest to pursue music the way I want: passionately, friendly and with people and projects I care for. I don't ever expect to get stupid rich, just want to make a decent living and be part of something special.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I'll do my darndest to pursue music the way I want: passionately, friendly and with people and projects I care for. I don't ever expect to get stupid rich, just want to make a decent living and be part of something special.

Great post, I like this part especially.

Great points, Chris, and well said!

Thanks! I have my moments.

[Eino Keskitalo]

Well I certainly appreciate the anecdotes and thoughts, thanks for sharing them RoeTaKa!

[zircon]

Should one ever work for free? I think it depends on the context. If the project has an extremely minimal (or no budget), as many indie projects do, then it's unlikely you might get a normal rate. Say they need 10 minutes of music, and you normally ask $200/min. It's possible that their entire project budget is $1000 or even less. We shouldn't begrudge the developer here, nor a composer who works on the project for a lower-than-normal rate, since the resources simply aren't there.

BUT in this situation, I liken the composer to an investor. The idea of investment is that you are contributing resources toward something with the hope that you will receive a return greater than what you put in. You buy $500 of Microsoft stock with the hope that it will be worth more later. When you take on a project for free, you're betting that the resources you put in now (your time) will see a good return down the line. That return could come in multiple forms:

* You could (and should!) negotiate royalties, so if the project becomes commercialized, raises money via crowdfunding, etc., you get a cut.

* You could release a soundtrack on your own. The value of this is proportional to the size of your fan base - someone like virt, BGC, or to a lesser extent myself can have some assurance that any soundtrack we release will earn *some* money.

* You could be asked to work for the same developer/creator again, this time on a higher-paying and/or higher-profile project.

But as with any investment, you need to do your research and evaluate the risks. Has the developer released any other games? Were they successful? What is their background and experience? Do they have a team? How much of the project is done? You have to ask yourself these questions, otherwise you might be making a risky investment that has a lower chance of paying off. This can happen even to projects that SEEM like good bets, but nonetheless, it's important to be selective with what you invest your time into.

Of course, none of this relates to projects that HAVE a budget, and you're being expected to work for free. This makes no sense to me and you really ARE devaluing your own work by doing this. If a project gets Kickstarted and you know they have $40k, it's not unreasonable to ask for a few thousand to contribute audio (depending on the amount of audio needed). That's not to say there aren't lots of ways to negotiate:

* You could do less audio - fewer tracks, fewer SFX

* You can license existing material for a lower rate

* You could give up some upfront money in exchange for royalties

* You could barter for services like graphic/web design and development

* etc.

If you MUST take or offer a lower rate, make it clear how that rate compares to your normal one. I took a rate of $150/min on a project last year which is definitely below my normal one. But in return, I'm getting 15% royalties and full soundtrack rights, plus I made it clear that my normal rate is higher and that $150/min is NOT the standard.