Fester's Quest "Overworld" - Orchestral Remix

[DarkDjinn]

Hi guys, been working on this one for a couple of days now. It's still in its very early stages, but the general idea is there. Looking for any feedback so far even as I make my own adjustments and keep working on the song. Note: this isn't even the "full" remix yet, but it's as far as I've gotten. It will be longer. Just trying to get feedback as I go.

The Source:

The remix (updated 28 June 2015)
 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zw826kg3o72anvx/Fester%27s%20Quest%20Overworld%20Remix%20updated%2028%20June%2015.mp3?dl=0

Edited June 28, 2015 by DarkDjinn
changing to "mod review"

[Eino Keskitalo]

Pretty good start and an interesting genre adaptation! I think the style works quite well. The intro is very nice - it's good to start off strong. Transferring the melody between strings and trumpet is a nice touch, xylophone is cool. Love the triangle, too.

Percussion and bass seem pretty repetitive and slightly overpowering, though I'm sure you're yet to adjust everything, add variation, work on the velocities etc (but right now it took a second listen to notice how much variation in the instrumentation you had in your a-part behind the beat).

The backbeat with the orchestra was kind of strange to hear, though I wouldn't say it wouldn't work! The sound of the percussion is kind of soft compared to the snappier sound of a rock drum kit. Perhaps you can imply a backbeat rather than being so explicit with it, if that makes sense.

Very good start! It's a fun and unexpected take on the fun original.

[Dj Mokram]

Seems you're going for a bombastic orchestra sound, which is a good way to preserve the energetic feel of the original. The problem with going all out is that, as Eino mentioned, you run the risk of becoming repetitious and have elements overpowering/overshadowing others. I wouldn't worry about it if you had like 3 or 4 minutes of material, but with a little over a minute, I believe it's worth looking into.

That said, I do hear the more subdued break coming at 1:02, so I've hope you'll keep things varied, both in intensity and complexity. Last but not least: you've got some nice samples. Try to make them shine by humanizing a bit more (writting, velocity, articulations) so that the piece comes off a little less stiff. You're off to a great start here, so keep at it. Looking forward to seeing how this one develops.

[DarkDjinn]

evktalo - Thanks for the kind words. The percussion is repetitive because it's a very busy piece and I didn't want to add any distractors from the rest of the orchestra. Do you have any suggestions for breaking up the repetition without making it too much movement in the percussion?

Dj Mokram - I do have a plan for what's coming next, but I agree - not much source material to work with. I like doing remixes of those kinds of songs because it's more challenging and gives me more freedom. I've got another related source I'm thinking about bringing into this mix and I think it's going to blend quite nicely. I definitely need to work on the humanization of those samples - I haven't done anything other than little velocity adjustments here and there. That part will probably mostly be done all together once I get the entire thing mapped out.

Thanks for the feedback so far!

[DarkDjinn]

Update 2/28/15:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/amszqzegwiehgjf/Fester%27s%20Quest%20Overworld%20Remix%20-%202_28_15%2C%2010.16%20PM.m4a?dl=0

-Finished the basic structure of the song

-Humanized some elements (esp. quick string runs) by playing some of the parts by hand

-Upgraded my library from EWQLSO Gold to the Platinum edition

-----

Here are some issues I know exist:

1. A few of the transitions don't sound as smooth/natural as they should

2. Still need to work on humanization of some parts, especially pretty much all of the brass parts

3. The drum kit I added in the groove section stands out because it's from Superior Drummer instead of EWQLSO

4. That groove section seems wayyyy too long (I promise it isn't, some solos are going there eventually - speaking of which, any sax players want to throw something down? I was thinking like a sax/xylophone call/answer kind of solo section)

5. Piano in the groove section is sloppy and too loud - I played it by hand and I'm not a piano player

-----

If anyone has any suggestions as to how to fix the issues I named, or if you see any other issues, please let me know. I'm feeling good about this mix, but I want it to be great

[DarkDjinn]

Update: 03/05/2015

-Too many updates to list here. Many, many overall changes and improvements. Still some work to do with the brass humanization.

Trying to gain more feedback, but also hoping to drum up some interest for a collab on an instrumental solo. Maybe guitar, maybe sax, not sure yet.

https://soundcloud.com/brad-charles/festers-quest-remix-wip

[DarkDjinn]

Updated 3/28/15:

Posting this here for Mod Review.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r56wutktlidyukn/Fester%27s%20Quest%20Overworld%20Remix%20-%203_28_15%2C%207.46%20AM.m4a?dl=0

[timaeus222]

Hate to say it, but there's some mechanical writing just all throughout. Good samples, but they need more detailed handling to make them shine more. Right now it sounds as if it's simply VGM and not a VGM remix. In other words, the instruments feel lifeless and lack the expression and punch of a more pronounced feel.

The partwriting itself sounds good though. Needs more TLC on the humanization and layering overall. Try listening to these for ideas:

Edited March 28, 2015 by timaeus222

[DarkDjinn]

Hate to say it, but there's some mechanical writing just all throughout. Good samples, but they need more detailed handling to make them shine more. Right now it sounds as if it's simply VGM and not a VGM remix. In other words, the instruments feel lifeless and lack the expression and punch of a more pronounced feel.

The partwriting itself sounds good though. Needs more TLC on the humanization and layering overall. Try listening to these for ideas:

I'm at the point where I've listened to it so many times that I can't even tell what to do with it anymore. I know there are some humanization issues throughout, but in some areas I actually slowed it way down and played a few of the fast runs so it would sound more natural. What would you say are the, let's say, top 3 main offenders? One big one I might go ahead and suggest myself is the solo trumpet and the two trumpets. I worry about focusing so much on humanizing the notes that it's going to end up sounding sloppy though.

[timaeus222]

The brass overall (mostly the trumpet), the snare & cymbals, and the strings overall. But I wouldn't stop looking there. Keep sifting through.

[Rozovian]

No.

I don't think a one-minute piece is enough length for this to be a complete song on its own. Just on that I'd reject this.

I'd also reject it on a lack of "performance", that it sounds written but not performed. The writing, isn't a problem (except the drums), but you'd need to go mess with it more, velocities, timings, midi cc, to make it sound less like something sequenced and more like something performed. The brass melodies are quite good, but the brass stabs in the background really aren't.

Oh and the drums. You treat the snare less like an orchestra snare and more like a rock snare. I'm sure it's been done, but I don't think it works, at least in this context.

It seems a bit too heavily reverbed. Not sure this is something you can change in EWQLSP. You should also sort out your mixing. The xylophone is really loud compared to other elements of the track.

Nice interpretation, nice writing. I suggest you play around with the melodies, in a separate project or on a real instrument, just to come up with some new things you can do with it. Try different chords, different modes, different rhythms, different registers. You could just stretch the ideas you currently have, but I don't think that would make for a good arrangement.

Needs more humanization, mixing, ideas on where to go with the track.

[Eino Keskitalo]

One minute? Did you check the newest version in a later post or the first one in the first post?

[Rozovian]

First post, since it was recently edited, I assume the link is updated. Which seems like a wrong assumption in this case.

I'll check out the correct version later.

[DarkDjinn]

First post, since it was recently edited, I assume the link is updated. Which seems like a wrong assumption in this case.

I'll check out the correct version later.

Here's the correct version - it was posted on 3/28/2015 in a separate reply. I like to leave all the old versions up for comparison - sorry for the confusion. This one incorporates a second source - the theme from The Addams Family (SNES). The original source had scant material, and I think the new addition is both relevant and works well. It's still a short mix, only about 2:30 I think. But it is cohesive and has a clear direction, in my humble opinion. In order to fix the aforementioned humanization issues from the first few posts, I slowed down the tempo greatly and played many of the parts by hand (I'm not a pianist) in order to give them a "less perfect/more human" feel.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r56wutktlidyukn/Fester%27s%20Quest%20Overworld%20Remix%20-%203_28_15%2C%207.46%20AM.m4a?dl=0

[Rozovian]

No worries, I'm still here. I recommend you keep the most recent update in the first post. Nothing wrong with keeping older version too, but the first post is where I, and possibly others, go to get the source link, and it's convenient to have the remix there too. Alternative, post the source link in the newest post when you update the remix for mod review.

This has those additional ideas I wanted from the first version, but some of the technical problems persist.

Transition at 0:10 is a bit too subtle. The reverb is still too heavy. If you can (depends on the sound library you're using), reduce the reverb, switch to a closer mic position, or something. The snare is annoying. Not sure if it's the panning, the reverb, the level, or the writing, but something about it bothers me. The glockenspiel near the end is a bit too loud.

The brass could still use some work. The slow attacks of the low brass makes them feel sloppy and lazy, but they could be moved back (in time) a little to align better with the beat. The supporting brass melodies (and stabs) feel a bit too mechanical though I can't figure out exactly what the problem is. The sustained strings notes in the melodies have a similar problem. They don't feel real.

I'm not sure where to draw the line whether this is good enough for ocr or not. It still has things to improve on, but the most important thing, the arrangement, sounds fine to my non-orchestral ears. You could sub it and wait for the judges' feedback on it. Maybe it'll pass, or maybe you just get a No(resub) set of crits. You could ask someone better versed in orchestral mixes (and EWQL's stuff) for feedback before submitting.

Nice take on the sources.

[DarkDjinn]

No worries, I'm still here. I recommend you keep the most recent update in the first post. Nothing wrong with keeping older version too, but the first post is where I, and possibly others, go to get the source link, and it's convenient to have the remix there too. Alternative, post the source link in the newest post when you update the remix for mod review.

This has those additional ideas I wanted from the first version, but some of the technical problems persist.

Transition at 0:10 is a bit too subtle. The reverb is still too heavy. If you can (depends on the sound library you're using), reduce the reverb, switch to a closer mic position, or something. The snare is annoying. Not sure if it's the panning, the reverb, the level, or the writing, but something about it bothers me. The glockenspiel near the end is a bit too loud.

The brass could still use some work. The slow attacks of the low brass makes them feel sloppy and lazy, but they could be moved back (in time) a little to align better with the beat. The supporting brass melodies (and stabs) feel a bit too mechanical though I can't figure out exactly what the problem is. The sustained strings notes in the melodies have a similar problem. They don't feel real.

I'm not sure where to draw the line whether this is good enough for ocr or not. It still has things to improve on, but the most important thing, the arrangement, sounds fine to my non-orchestral ears. You could sub it and wait for the judges' feedback on it. Maybe it'll pass, or maybe you just get a No(resub) set of crits. You could ask someone better versed in orchestral mixes (and EWQL's stuff) for feedback before submitting.

Nice take on the sources.

Thanks for the feedback. Here's the deal with percussion. I was doing a "rock kit" thing with the orchestral percussion, but it sounded weak. So I added an actual rock kit (and kept the orchestral percussion), and had it do almost exactly the same thing as the orchestral percussion. It didn't fit, so I put some reverb on it to make it blend in a little better. It might sound a little weird as a result.

As for the other stuff, I'll look into it. Thanks again!

[DarkDjinn]

Updated version 27 June 2015 (I also updated the link to this version in the original post):

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ea44qyac5jkcqw4/Fester%27s%20Quest%20Overworld%20Remix%20updated%2027%20June%2015.mp3?dl=0

 

Lots of changes! I got some very good feedback from Liontamer, which I'll include here and then attempt to explain how I addressed each of those things:

 

"Sounds like there's not much high-end clarity in this piece. Also, the way things are balanced, it doesn't sound like there's any lead, right from the start at :03. The strings handling the source melody at :11 are buried in the back. Same for the brass taking over as lead afterward. At :49 for the chorus, again, the lead writing is quieter than the drums AND countermelody. This imbalance ends up being the case throughout the whole track." - I changed the "main melody" to be handled by trumpet pretty much through the entire first phrase, and brought it out more to address those issues.

 

"Also, this track was pretty disorienting on headphones. The panning is too wide, so you have parts that sound almost all on one side or the other, which isn't how you'd hear an orchestral track if you were sitting in the audience." -I addressed this by using all three mic positions in EWQLSO. Previously I was just using the close and stage positions, and for this version I added the surround for most instruments. I'm not sure if this aspect is better or worse, I was just trying something.

 

"Consider a new, altered or more varied drum pattern at 1:09 (or earlier), otherwise it's going on too long and locking the track at the same energy level for quite a while." - I addressed this by taking that drum pattern to a half time feel for the first half of the section and adding in a few simple snare fills/cymbal crashes to break it up a bit. I like how this section turned out, it really has a nice "groove" to it.

 

"Smaller thing, but the piano at 1:49 was pretty mechanical-sounding, and the vox sounded kind of awkward. The snare behind things from 1:49-2:04 was bland and sapped some energy from the finish, IMO, even though the rest of the writing was good. Cool Addams Family theme cameo though." - Oops, as I'm writing this I realized I covered up the "mechanical" piano. I did fix it, but you can barely hear it now. I'll address this in the next version. I actually added a viola to play this part as well, but it's a bit too quiet to hear. 

 

"The track ended at 2:12 with things cutting off abruptly before the final note fully went to 0. Watch the small detail like that in your encoding." - Silly mistake to overlook last time, fixed.

 

Any feedback at all is welcome!

 

 

[timaeus222]

What do you mean by surround? The instruments here do sound too wide still. The max panning I would do for an orchestra is about 50% wide. You usually don't hear one this wide unless you're front-row or something. Try imagining being in about the 10th row instead. Did you do any additional panning aside from default panning positions? I also think the latin vocals seem a bit unnecessary, and also too far left.

 

Again, the writing sounds good, but the panning and volumes sound off.

[DarkDjinn]

Surround was just one of the mic names. I didn't change the default panning. Honestly, I don't actually hear an issue, so it's hard for me to fix it - just taking shots in the dark. I'll try lowering the close mic volumes, those are the ones that are panned by default.

[DarkDjinn]

Made a few more updates today...

 

1. I still didn't hear much of an issue myself with the panning, but I adjusted some of the instruments from their default panning positions in the mics to "slightly less panned".

 

2. Fixed the "Addams Family" bit at the end - now with harpsichord!

 

3. Adjusted a few drum fills, and some timing of some of the drum hits.

 

4. Various volume adjustments.

 

5. Added in a short phrase from the song made with PulseBoy for that sweet Nintendo sound. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep this, I think it stands out. I like it, but I tend to overlook production issues if the musicality is there. That being said, any feedback on the production would be helpful. I've still got a long way to go before I've got my ear trained to for "critical listening" with production.

 

Original post was updated too, but here's the link:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zw826kg3o72anvx/Fester%27s%20Quest%20Overworld%20Remix%20updated%2028%20June%2015.mp3?dl=0

[Gario]

MOD REVIEW

That is an awesome source. I actually never heard any of the music for the game before, but it sounds awesome.

The orchestration is pretty spot on, and I'm glad to hear that you worked on the humanization on this one (it really shows). The production sounds very hollow, though. There is little in the way of bass, and honestly the highs could shine a little more, too (a LITTLE more). The slight shimmer helps the track sound more 'live', though it can mess you up as far as 'loudness', so you need to be careful with it if you play with it. The reverb is also a little distracting - it's like the orchestra played in a poor, echo-y auditorium. Bring that down a few notches and it'll clean up your mix, giving it more headroom to help with the other suggestions, to boot.

The Adams Family harpsichord, while neat and fitting, might be an issue with the panel when you submit it (there is a rule attempting to limit copyrighted material that ISN'T a source originally from the game). It's up to you whether or not you keep it (they MIGHT let it slide), but know that will be working against you when you submit it.

As it stands, I'd say this would get a NO-resub, but I would like to see it become something posted someday - I didn't know the source was this awesome, so you need to be the herald of this great message. Good luck!

[DarkDjinn]

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately I won't be continuing work on this one. I hadn't learned all of the features of Logic Pro X yet, and I bounced the tracks to audio but apparently can't reverse it from the way I did it, and before I knew that, I saved over my project file. You live, you learn. So this will stay the way it is, and "unsubmittable". Thanks for checking it out!