OCR04547 - *YES* Final Fantasy 8 "Make Them Bleed"

[Liontamer]

Version 2 - 11/4/2023

Version 1 - 05/10/2023

Title: Make Them Bleed

MAKE. THEM. BLEED.

This was the first track that I took up when I hopped on the SeeDs of Pandora train. I had no intentions of doing anything beyond this first track and didn't even considered collabing with anyone up to this point. Darkflamewolf and Jorito both were embracing a culture of collaboration on all fronts and had suggested it, though as I was producing it and doing all the guitar parts myself I hadn't thought much of it until at some point I decided... Ultemecia is a raving lunatic and I need to encapsulate that somehow. Enter... Earthkid. Her name sounds gentle but ... after getting her VA stuff for this track I believe she might just be insane. That or she was having a bad morning because she brought down the house with her contributions. She also sings in a small interlude of sorts... which wasn't originally there but Jorito and DFW didn't like that the track was balls to the wall for 5 minutes and asked for a 'breather'. Anyway... I'm no lead guitarist by any stretch so I eventually tapped Viking Guitar on the shoulder to track a guitar solo at the end befitting of the yell that EK makes at the end of her going insane.

Source: Legendary Beast (FF8)

0:34 to 0:52 - References chords in the background from original as well as flute part from original

1:02 to 1:19 - References main melody as well as alternate melodies from the original

1:21 to 1:28 - Tremolo guitar playing alternate melody from original

1:29 to 1:47 - Horns playing main melody followed by alternate melody on synth

1:47 to 1:56 - Lead guitar playing harmonized alternate melody from original

1:57 to 2:05 - Acoustic and lead guitars playing main melody from original

2:06 to 2:14 - Horn rips referencing original 

2:15 to 2:23 - Horn rips continue, tremolo guitar references alternate melody from original

2:45 to 2:50 - Hard to hear but there is a descending scale playing one note each beat that references a part from the original.

2:51 to 3:00 - Guitar part referencing one of the weirder melodies from the original while descending scale thing keeps going in the background.

3:01 to 3:18 - Horn rip thing starts again but has guitar doing a gliss to echo it

3:19 to 3:36 - Spiccato strings playing in the background is reference to identical part in original

3:37 to 3:54 - Guitar lead is playing melody / alternate melody from original

4:14 to 4:23 - Acoustic guitar playing main melody from original

4:23 to 4:27 - Piano playing alternate melody from original

4:28 to end - Strings playing chord progression from original that was referenced earlier

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Emunator

[MindWanderer]

In the album eval, we all liked the composition but had concerns about distortion and balance, as well as timing of the strings. The string timing sounds fine to me, now.

However, the crunchiness doesn't sound intentional to me. There's a synth that first appears at 1:02 that seems like it's supposed to be adding an industrial tone, but it's just adding white noise to my ears. It sounds, frankly, terrible, and as it's loud and plays for most of the piece, for me it's a dealbreaker.

There's also a bass at 1:28-1:46 that's overwhelmingly pounding. It doesn't play for long, but it bothers me a lot while it does.

Finally, the spoken words have way too much reverb. They sound like they were recorded in a bathroom, and not in the same space as everything else.

That gritty synth is the one thing that's a major issue from my perspective. The other issues would be passable, but would be nice to have addressed.

NO (resubmit)

Revision 11/6: Sounds good now. Everything I asked to be addressed was addressed.

YES

Edited November 6, 2023 by MindWanderer

[prophetik music]

initial hit is appropriately epic. the guitars are way louder than everything else until the vocals come in and are way louder than that. there's some balancing that could definitely be done there.

0:34 is the initial string riff, and this is realized almost exactly as it is in the original initially. there's more of the super-loud vox and then a really intense section around the melodic material at like 1:01 that sounds absolutely incredible. that short 20-second section is just nuts, so well orchestrated and put together. the intensity continues at 1:28, and this also sounds great but has a bit of jank from the orchestral samples. around here i noticed how much this feels like one of my favorite remixes, Ein Anderer Abschied by PriZm. the intense rhythmic guitar elements, focus on a single chord for extended periods of time, and the orchestral elements laid against the female vocals all are very reminiscent of that remix. 

the vocal break at 2:25 is a neat idea. it's clear both very high for (i'm assuming) EK and doesn't have any vibrato which makes it not as pleasing a sound to hear as it could be there. the layered laughing and subsequent statements starting at different times is a fun effect considering the element of time in this game, but again it eventually is too loud over the top.

the guitar stuff at 3:35 sounds great, although the lead is too loud again and crushes what's going on alongside it. there's some ridiculous riffs at like 4:05, just awesome stuff, and cutting to the acoustic right after it is a great idea. after that is an outro with some acoustic guitar noodles, and it's done.

i didn't have an issue with the white-noise synth, again equating it to PriZm's track if not other similarly-styled tracks. i don't have the high-end on my ears like MW does however so it's certainly possible i'm missing something he's hearing. i'll ask my wife to listen later when she's home. regarding the vox, i didn't think that they sounded odd or different - i think the distortion was an intentional effect. i didn't have an issue with the reverb either, just the overall peak volume of them.

this was clearly a huge undertaking and it's super intense throughout. there's a ton of elements that i did not expect to like but ultimately came together into a greater whole. i certainly think there are things that could have been done differently or objectively better - specifically the volumization across the track - but what's here is excellent and i heard no dealbreakers for me. excellent work.

 

 

YES

edit 11/7: the better-balanced vocals against the backing parts at 1:00 literally raise the hair on my arms. i hate vocal sfx in a mix and this is still bonkers good. the volumization was my big issue and it's a lot better throughout, so this is still a yes.

Edited November 7, 2023 by prophetik music

[Chimpazilla]

I like this, it is very epic and well instrumented and performed.  I have no issue with the buzzy synth.  But WOW those spoken vocals are loud!  Like, jump out of my seat and hit the ceiling loud.  Also, at 3:37 the lead guitar is very loud, too loud.  Then at 4:14, the acoustic guitar comes in comically loud too.

My thoughts mirror Brad's almost exactly.  I really like this track!  Great arrangement.  But for me, those volume balances are a dealbreaker.  Elements need to be leveled better so they don't stick out this far out of the mix.  Mastering seems fine, even the mixing is fine, it's just the volume balancing that needs to be revisited.  This is more of a fix than would warrant a "conditional," but I think it still should be a pretty quick fix.

NO (fix volumes and resub, please)

edit 11/4/23:  Vocals are still loud, but the balance is now a lot better, and the vocals now fit better into the soundscape.

YES

Edited November 4, 2023 by Chimpazilla

[Liontamer]

Many thanks for the detailed and helpful source usage breakdown!

Opens up like gritty mud, but OK. 1:01-1:20 is pretty static-y/crunchy; intentional, but I could understand people put off by it; crunchiness is back from 1:28-2:23 and I can totally see how the crunchiness is just getting in the way. I personally don't like the effect and think if you fixate on it, it sounds worse, so I can empathize with a NO on those grounds and would love to hear that dialed back. But I can also live with this when contrasting it with what else works within the arrangement, which is lopsided toward the arrangement being on point.

From 3:02-3:18, I wish the electric guitar doing the call-and-response with the horns was louder to help the inherent contrast of this section with 2:06's better stand out.

Electric guitar stuff from 3:56-4:13 was a nice highlight. Acoustic guitar at 4:13 (and earlier at 1:56) sounded sick; too bad it had a quality disparity with that blocky, fake-sounding piano from 4:22-4:27. Strings at 4:27 were OK but kind of exposed. 

Arrangement's got strong dynamics, and the sprinkles of EK's VA & vox were cool. Those damn crunchies.

YES (borderline)

EDIT (11/4): Improved's mixdown's improved. [/sic] Bye to the crunchies.

YES

Edited November 4, 2023 by Liontamer
updated vote from YES (borderline) to YES

[Emunator]

Wow, the orchestral and percussive bones of this track are SOLID. Some truly cinematic-quality orchestration, and the percussive groove really gives a sense of movement to the arrangement.

This really boils down to volume balancing for me, and it pains me to do this to such an amazing arrangement, but there were multiple points in time where I found myself startled by the volume of various elements, and not in a good way. The spoken word vocals specifically feel like you tried to crank them up loud because they were unintelligible, but really they just need more of the dry signal in the mix, as they're getting washed out in reverb. Similarly, the lead guitar solo and acoustic parts at the end are way too boosted compared to the backing instrumentation and are jarring to me on first listen.

As someone who's also been accused (and not without cause) of putting too much distortion on my tracks, I took issue with the guitar and distorted elements around the 1 minute mark. In my view, the distortion itself isn't the issue, but the fact that many of the distorted elements are hard-panned or have an otherwise wide stereo spread, and there's not always a good balance in each ear of how much distortion is happening at any given time. This is where the physical discomfort is coming from - if you were to center those distorted elements or reduce the stereo width, at least both ears are being assaulted with crunch in relatively equal proportions.

Ugh, this arrangement kicks all kinds of ass but especially on headphones, these issues feel quite evident and would be worth addressing before posting. I had a lot of visceral reactions to this track, but too many of them were of the "oww, my ears hurt" variety, which puts a damper on the reactions that were "damn, that was COOL!" If you can do things to mitigate those unintentional reactions, you'll be golden.

EDIT 11/4/2023: This new version fixes all of the issues I had, it sounds SO much cleaner and well balanced in the stereo field and in terms of volume leveling. Cutting out the static cleans up the mix without losing any of the impact, and the vocals are much more audible! I think you course corrected too hard on the vocal levels after the 3 minute mark, those now sound TOO loud but it's the only gripe I have. This is clearly a pass for me now, thanks for the extra work Zack!

YES

Edited November 4, 2023 by Emunator

[DarkSim]

Opens up with some washy noise, and then into some crazily clear vocals that stand in stark contrast. The string lead that follows is very thin, and followed again by even louder vocals. It's clear the balancing is off here, and it detracts from the intended drama of the opening. The timing on those fast string runs around 1:11 sounds a little behind, but I think it's down to the attack on the samples. Probably needs dialling down, or changing the articulation on some of the shorter notes to more staccato.

There's some nice synth work in the background, although that distortion is too much for me. On headphones it sounds like it's right at the back of my ears, as if a fly has crawled in there, although even on speakers it doesn't sound too pleasant either. I think the distortion can work in the arrangement, but needs to be dialled way back so that it's much subtler in the mix. The lyric at 3:36 is inaudible due to some blowout on the limiter.

The acoustic guitar is a cool addition, and sounds good in the mix - probably the best balanced element in the whole ensemble. If you can get everything to that level, you'll be onto a winner. The electric guitar lead also sounds awesome, and it's a killer way for the track to reach its climax with that solo. Fix up the balancing and distortion issues and it's a Yes from me.

NO (resubmit)

Edit 04/11: Oh boy am I glad we got a new version! There's none of that nasty distortion that was there before, the overall levels are much better, particularly on the vocals, and it now lives up to its full potential. Still can't make out that word at 3:36 though ?

Great stuff! Now an emphatic

YES

Edited November 4, 2023 by DarkSim

[Emunator]

Zack will be making updates to this one, please hold on any further votes for now!

Quote

I'll take a look at the project a bit and make some changes. I think a lot of the issues were caused by the master bc it sounds quite different from my own mastering of it. Speculation, who really knows.

 

[Emunator]

@DarkSim @Liontamer @Chimpazilla @prophetik music @MindWanderer Zack provided a newly mixed version, please check out this new version and adjust your votes as you see fit!