OCR01707 - *YES* Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow 'In the Darkness of Time'

[Liontamer]

Please note the potential mainstream source usage brought up in the sub letter - LT

remixer: Rize

real name: David T.

email:

user id: 1321

Game: Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow (GBA)

Original track: Clocktower

Original composer: Michiru Yamane

OST link: http://castlevania.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Media/ariadawnost.html

Remix name: In the Darkness of Time

This is my first remix at all since 2003, and my first OCR submission since 2002.

The intro is borrowed from the first song on Megadeth's first album (although Mustaine used piano and I used organ). I used it because the last bit of music in the clocktower song (right before it repeats) sounds almost exactly like it. I don't feel too bad borrowing it because Mustaine was probably influenced heavily by a well known Bach Toccata himself (2:49 seconds in):

Still, I don't know how that jibes with OCR rules. 40 seconds out of a 4 minute song may exceed "extremely limited". On the other hand, the main melody from the borrowed part is in the original clocktower song from Aria.

I recorded this for the October DoD competition where it got 3rd place. This version has an updated EQ and mix since I didn't have enough time to finish it to the best of my abilities by the competition deadline. I wish I could make the whole thing a tad louder, but I can't without distorting the hell out of it. As is, it's comparable to 80's era Metallica in volume. If that's not good enough for OCR's current standards or the borrowed part is not an issue, then oh well. Maybe next time.

-Dave

LT Edit (2/21): Throwing in the Megadeth track "Last Rites/Loved to Deth", which is the source tune covered for the intro here, and thus more relevant than the Bach video. Though the Megadeth intro was inspired by the Bach (2:49-4:01), it's mostly a stylistic similarity and not mostly arranged from it. Take a look and draw your own conclusions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGy9mUDugU

[zircon]

This mix sort of strikes me as a bit low-energy overall. Maybe it's the drums, which seem kind of 'soft' in tone overall, or maybe it's the lack of really fast rhythms throughout (in any of the instruments.) Either way, it doesn't feel very dramatic or tense, and sort of just seems to plod along, especially after the 3 minute mark or so. There aren't any significant key modulations or time signature changes, nor does the texture really vary significantly throughout. I feel like this either needs to be condensed, or the existing material made more interesting in some way.

The production is pretty good, though the sound is generally not very aggressive. Even the organ at the beginning doesn't sound very foreboding, and while the guitars are performed and recorded expertly, they just don't seem as heavy as a lot of other guitar mixes I've heard (here and at DoD) - maybe it's just a mixing/EQ thing, or maybe some additional overdrive/distortion is needed? In general, more volume would not hurt at all.

With regards to interpretation of the source, I thought this mix was fine in that department, with some nice embellishments and new writing. Nothing really stood out at me, but it's more interpretive than most rock mixes we get, so good job here. The Bach usage was OK by me; not essential to the interpretation of the mix, and not substantial enough to be a problem.

This is close, IMO, but the production and overall structure are pulling it below yes territory for me... please resub!

NO, resubmit

[Palpable]

I was feeling this one a lot more than zircon. The interpretation had some cool touches to it, like the incorporation of Bach. It's not a big enough part of the mix for me to be concerned about it, and I felt it was a good addition that was thematically appropriate. I liked the flow of the song, and the dynamic variety between individual sections. Nice arrangement.

Production has some weak spots but nothing too bad except the track's volume. That definitely needs to come up (even with master compression you found it was distorting? I don't think this is a big deal and one of us can help you with it). Once I turned up the volume, I thought this had more than enough energy and didn't feel plodding. Liked the tones of the guitar a lot too. I guess I'd prefer if the lead was more prominent but you can still hear it quite clearly. I'm comfortable passing this if the volume gets increased.

YES (conditional on volume)

[Liontamer]

Killing Is My Business... And Business Is Good! - 01 "Last Rites/Loved to Deth"

http://www.zophar.net/gsf/cvaos_gsf.rar - 10 "Clock Tower"

djpretzel was saying that he personally felt 40 seconds worth of non-VGM-based arrangement (in this case, Megadeth's "Last Rites/Loved To Deth") for a near 4 1/2 minute submission was still too much, so we'll see what happens from his side if this passes. The rule on outside source usage hasn't been tested much since "A Star Freezes Over."

Objectively, the usage fitting thematically with the arranged game music shouldn't be a factor as to whether it's viable, and should never be used as an argument. Any artist worth their salt should be able to make the arrangement of a non-VGM source fit comfortably with the VGM portions.

Anyway, the track really got underway at :43. On some level I can understand zircon's criticisms about a lack of dynamic contrast and lack of aggression, but nothing felt like a dealbreaker here or even a significant problem in the slightest. While there were some more interpretive sections, the arrangement felt a lot more like an expansive cover rather than a drastic reinterpretation, so I would have liked to have seen more risks taken with the structure. Regardless, still some solid stuff here; very easy to see how this placed so high for DoD's Castlevania month.

Not much to say other than that this was a solid rock cover. Not to shit on zircon at all, but what's the problem? I agree it could be more dynamic, but what's in place here sounds good nonetheless. The volume and production aspects David mentioned are a non-issue with me; I thought this was well above our standards.

But this had :43 seconds' worth of Megadeth as part of a 264-second arrangement or 16.287%. I know we don't have a percentage threshold, but if djp's not comfortable with this amount of usage in spite of this passing, then I'm fine with a veto.

Hate to NO this, but looking at our wording in the Standards ("Any incorporation or arrangement of source material not from games (mainstream, classical, etc.) should be extremely limited"), about 1/6th is too much for me to call extremely limited. I'm making it very clear, that this is the only reason I'm voting NO. If djpretzel clarified that this amount of mainstream usage is allowed, I'd be more than happy to change my vote.

If the track is rejected, David, please consider submitting an edited version without the Megadeth intro, or with an abbreviated cut of the intro (e.g. starting from :26 or :31). I think this is a well-performed piece and would love to see it up in some form!

NO (resubmit)

[Palpable]

But this had :43 seconds' worth of Megadeth as part of a 264-second arrangement or 16.287%. I know we don't have a percentage threshold, but if djp's not comfortable with this amount of usage in spite of this passing, then I'm fine with a veto.

Hate to NO this, but looking at our wording in the Standards ("Any incorporation or arrangement of source material not from games (mainstream, classical, etc.) should be extremely limited"), about 1/6th is too much for me to call extremely limited. I'm making it very clear, that this is the only reason I'm voting NO. If djpretzel clarified that this amount of mainstream usage is allowed, I'd be more than happy to change my vote.

This is one aspect of the standards I'm not that clear on. If it's determined that this much usage from another source isn't kosher, it would certainly change my vote.

[zykO]

hmm controversy =)

i love it.

first off, i'm a HUGE megadeth fan and one thing i want to point out to everyone right off the bat is that, while the intro is clearly inspired by the intro to megadeth's debut album, the entire track is clearly inspired by megadeth and other early 80's thrash. so if there's a similarity, that would seem to be obviously superfluous as we are not here to question his influence as long as it is reasonable...

is it reasonable that rize took the intro from dave mustaine note for note? any more reasonable than the fact that mustaine did the same thing himself?

i can say this: it would be a shame if that is why we cannot pass this. the arrangement is very well written and expertly performed. great lead work on top of very good thrashmetal riffing. this, my friend, is your best work since your debut, Rude Awakening. it has the same exploring curiosity.

the guitar playing is ferocious in this one, though. great mixing on this one. everything is in the right places in the soundfield. it is kinda low on volume but so is most of your work so it could be stylistic, i'm not sure. but like palpable said, when this is cranked, it is ferocious... shouldn't have to crank it that high to enjoy it, no?

i say this one's a winner in spite of the intro. i think it is a tribute to a great metal influence on the artist and also a clever association made to the source material which is definitely, stylistically, from the same musical era, anyways. it would feel trite to reject it on those grounds.

YESconditional on volume.

[Malcos]

The guitar playing is excellent here, and the arrangement is great. Production is good, I think any difference here from more a contemporary sound is due to the mixer going for an 80's sound. I don't feel that volume is an issue technically, only stylistically...I'm going to yes this as everything is above the bar for me. However if DJP feels that the use of the Megadeth track was too much, then I accept that.

YES

[DarkeSword]

Eh, it's Bach, it's public domain, and it's stylistically similar. Isn't a lot of Castlevania music inspired by Bach's stuff anyway?

Anyway I think the track is pretty rockin'. The organ sample's not great, but it fits into a supporting role quite nicely; never too exposed.

If the Bach stuff in the beginning warrants a veto, then I'm fine with that, but to be honest, I don't really believe that it's an issue in this particular case.

Nice. YES

[CHz]

The arrangement of everything after the intro is fine. Far from the most daring interpretation, but what's here is definitely good. Production could use some work. DS mentioned the organ. I'd have liked the drums to be a little softer, actually, but it's not an issue. I do want to see the overall volume pumped up, though. Sounds great cranked, but I shouldn't have to crank it this high to rock out.

I'm fine with the amount of Last Rites used in the track compared to everything else. It's not exactly integral to the mix, either, so I don't think cutting it is a big deal if it does turn out to be too much.

YES conditional on a volume boost, but I'd rather see the source issue resolved first before tweaking the volume and then rejecting it on Megadeth grounds. If it's a no-go, I'd love to see the intro cut or retooled.

[Vig]

Gotta love larry voting with his calculator.

My only complaint with this track is the volume is a bit low. Everything else I would mention is quibbling. Slight tuning issues, relatively uninspiring organ sound.

I'll go ahead and join the Conditional SYE crowd. so lets get some volume up in this beyatch.

[big giant circles]

with 6 Y's, why does dave need to chime in on this one?

[Liontamer]

Some clarifications:

1) The intro is not Bach. The intro is Megadeth in the style of Bach, and is not in the public domain. A non-VGM song being in the public domain or not is also irrelevant to the current standards.

2) The usage of a non-VGM song fitting comfortably with the arranged game music should never be a reason to overlook the amount of usage. Any capable musician should be able to effectively weave in arrangement ideas from non-VGM songs into the game arrangement. It can't be treated as a violation only when executed poorly.

with 6 Y's, why does dave need to chime in on this one?

The standards say, "Any incorporation or arrangement of source material not from games (mainstream, classical, etc.) should be extremely limited." I'm asking Dave to chime in since, 1) the amount of mainstream song usage is too high for "extremely limited" and 2) djp's initial opinion on this scenario was that it would be a violation. So basically, he's at a crossroads where he has an otherwise YESable track butting heads with a subjectively written rule, one that's relatively recent and pretty untested.

Let's see what call is made by the guy who specifically wrote this rule, and potentially clear up some ambiguity. It might result in the wording being modified due to the collective vote OR this one's not gonna make it due to the amount of Megadeth coverage.

[djpretzel]

first off, i'm a HUGE megadeth fan and one thing i want to point out to everyone right off the bat is that, while the intro is clearly inspired by the intro to megadeth's debut album, the entire track is clearly inspired by megadeth and other early 80's thrash. so if there's a similarity, that would seem to be obviously superfluous as we are not here to question his influence as long as it is reasonable...

Yes... and no.

There's a significant difference between being inspired by something and being almost a verbatim copy. Other than changing from piano to organ (and taking out doubled-up guitar/bass), this isn't just "inspired" by Megadeth, it IS Megadeth, i.e. it's a very direct and fairly unaltered usage of 40 seconds of one of their songs.

is it reasonable that rize took the intro from dave mustaine note for note? any more reasonable than the fact that mustaine did the same thing himself?

Mustaine didn't steal note from note from Bach. It's noticeably different. I'll certainly admit that it sounds similar, but that's like saying anything modal with a lot of minor intervals etc. (aka "that Transylvanian sound") is literally identical.

It's not.

Toccata and Fugue is by far the most famous composition that has this sound to it, but that doesn't mean that everything else in the same key, with similar intervals/structure, is simply an arrangement of it, and such pieces are DEFINITELY not note for note copies. There are, to be sure, other compositional similarities between the Mustaine intro and Bach, and I do think it was probably an allusion, but it's not the same piece note for note, and saying that it is somewhat diminishes Megadeth and to a greater extent, Bach.

Rize's intro, however, IS nearly identical to the Mustaine track, down to specific pauses in timing.

Put another way: if you took the actual score from the Megadeth intro and put it alongside the Bach piece, the differences would be clear and obvious. If you did the same thing with this mix and the Megadeth piece, the similarity would be clear and obvious.

• Do I think the usage stylistically works? Yes
  
• Do I blame Rize for paying homage to Megadeth? Absolutely not
  
• Do I think our standards should allow for intros that consist of 40 seconds of nothing but very superficially altered, easily identifiable Megadeth songs? ... I'm gonna say no.

There's two ways of thinking about this:

1. Well, everything minor-keyed with a lot of interval work basically sounds like Bach, Castlevania has a lot of that going on, so it's no big deal.
   
2. Just because something fits a key and structure doesn't mean it's an arrangement of Bach's Toccata, there's room for meaningful variation within such compositions, and in this instance there's zero deviation from the Megadeth piece...

I'm going with #2... for the record, I love the rest of the mix.

[Liontamer]

In a strange instance of synchronicity, David, with no provocation, actually sent in a new version with improved mixing and the Megadeth intro removed about 90 minutes before djp posted. Awesome! Cuz honestly, we were ask him if he could do these things anyway.

DJP and co.

Several months ago I submitted "In the Darkness of Time" which is currently awaiting judgment. Upon further reflection, I decided to axe the organ intro (precise details about said intro are in my original submission email) since it's questionable as to whether or not it would be disqualified for legal reasons (probably should), the quality of the sample I used sucks and the song is more immediately compelling without it.

Consequently I've arranged a version without the organ intro. You may also find that the overall mix itself is more balanced as I've been taking mixing "lessons" from the incomparable Snappleman since my prior submission. If you can, please replace my original submission with the following, thanks:

http://www.mediafire.com/?lg3k1jmwyyg <- In the Darkness of Time

Rize

David T.

u=1321

Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow

the Clocktower level

Michuru Yamane

http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/nintendo/gba/CVAoS-ClockTower.mid

With the new version, the volume issues are taken care of. Plus the removal of the Megadeth cover intro doesn't bump into the issue of using outside source tunes. An excellent track, and glad that the issues with the outside music usage didn't have to get in the way of showcasing this greatness.

YES