suikun
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Posts posted by suikun
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Thanks everyone for having me!
The title is indeed a reference to the TNG episode, but I didn't expect people to actually pick up on it. I'm not the biggest Star Trek buff, but I loved the concept of that episode. Just like they used stories and metaphors to convey meaning, I wanted to put this image into the listener's head of Yuna revisiting the ruins of Zanarkand and reminiscing about her journey.
One little musical easter egg I put in at 2:52 in the cello is just the first four notes of the chorus of Suteki Da Ne, which I thought was fitting to have just before Yuna's imagined breakdown right at the next bar. This is totally not a failed attempt at creating a counterpoint line from the entire chorus >_>
Regarding all the humanisation and execution of the strings I very much drew on my experience playing the violin myself. I never went beyond somewhat advanced intermediate, so I also listened to several performances especially by Hilary Hahn and paid a lot of attention to how a professional does the vibrato.
One of the very important tricks is never letting any MIDI CC data become flat for vibrato and bow pressure. There should always be some movement over time, even if it's just by 2 to 3 points over a long sustain. This also applies to the BPM. It's actually a rather jagged zig-zag curve with fluctiations of as much as +-10% over a single bar. This emulates that the performers are listening to each other and adjusting all the time to play in sync. It's such a subtle change and the listener can't put their finger on it, but helps immensely with realism. This works for fully orchestrated pieces as well.
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@Hemophiliac Interesting. Maybe I was using the wrong approach due to how I learned mixing mainly through YouTube. Tutorials hardly use orchestra music for demonstration, so the way "mud" develops (e.g. overlap from untuned percussion, resonances from recording etc.) and is handled is very different.
I was actually already considering the intervals, but rather based on instruments and sections. For example close writing in the flutes is fine but for trombones open writing is better. The goal is of course to avoid smearing the sound from a musical point of view but so far I hadn't considered this in the context of mixing. In hindsight it is of course obvious, but in my head composing and mixing were two separate and independent stages with independent problems.
That is also why increasing the reverb just worked. The writing was already clean with regards to intervals, resonances were fixed before the reverb and recording issues can't be present due to the instruments being modeled.
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@Woody mC I've never dealt with a sampled organ before and I'm not familiar with the instrument's intricacies, but I'd assume that producing a satisfactory result using samples is significantly easier than for strings (no velocities and legato transistions to worry about?), so getting the authentic experience that way sounds reasonable. I've played the violin myself many years ago, and sampled solo strings just make me want to pull my hair out. If you know what the instrument is capable of, the limitations and one-off sampling issues just drive you nuts. The SWAM solo strings are the first I've actually enjoyed using.
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@Hemophiliac After listening back to it I think I agree on the reverb. It's already there but intentionally pulled down because I really don't want it to mud up the mix, but I actually invested a lot of time into shaping it using EQ and whatnot. I upped it by 4db and it added more to the realism than I anticipated and less mud than I thought it would.
I've updated the main post with the version I actually submitted. It has some more subtle vibrato changes, and also increased reverb. My mail submission linked to my personal webspace, so I just swapped out the old file with the one with more reverb. I'll just cross my fingers that the process is slow enough so that they hadn't downloaded it yet.
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And it's done! I guess? Let's see what the review says.
@Woody mC The piano I'm using is Pianotec from Modartt and they also have a modeled organ. I haven't looked into it much though. The strings are Audio Modeling SWAM and I don't think I will ever buy sampled strings again. Modeled instruments are just so much more enjoyable to use.
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Updated the first post with what is probably the final version. I'll let it sit for a few days and then probably switch over to ready for review.
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Updated the first post with a somewhat current WIP. I've added the second part, so at least the arrangement is done. Now follows all the detail work like humanization and whatnot. Hours and hours of CC curve editing...
I've taken care that everything should still be humanly playable. All of the violin's double stops work out fine. Starting at 2:51 the piano will have to do some far jumps in the left hand, but there should be enough time...I guess?
@HarlemHeat360 The instruments are not sampled. The sound is created on the fly, so they are actually closer to a synthesizer.
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An arrangement of "To Zanarkand" for piano trio (piano, violin and cello) titled "Yuna at Zanarkand, Her Mind on Lost Friends". It was a lot of fun and a great exercise to bounce the melodies between the different instruments to give them all their spotlights. Spinning counterpoints from previous melody snippets is such a great cheat.
All instruments are modeled (i.e. synthesized on the fly) and don't use samples. It's amazing not having to fight them to get them to do what I want or wrestle with sampling limitations and inconsistencies. The downside is that you have to explicitely tell them what to do in excruciating detail.
Update (16.06.22):
Changed the attachment to the current WIP. The second part is done, so at least all notes are put down. Now to the ardous task of humanization...
Update (30.06.22):
Updated to somewhat final version and decided on the title. The realism can probably improved a bit more, but for now I'm out of ideas. I'll let it sit for a few days to listen to it again with fresh ears, but I think the mix should be fine.
Update (10.07.22):
Some finishing touches here and there. Ready for review!
Update (25.07.22):
Updated with the submitted version.
Original song:
- PixelPirates and Woody mC
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Thanks for the feedback. It's true that there is not a lot of contrast. There's a actually a lot going on in the instrumentation, but many key elements remain largely the same, so there's not much percieved variation.
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I completely re-did the mixing to address some issues that had been bugging me forever. The mix should be a lot more transparent now, and all instruments have moved closer to the listener. Through the magic of parallel compression many quiet parts should be more audible. I've also eq-ed most instruments to sit better in the mix.
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After some more deliberation I don't think I have anything to add to the piece and am marking it as ready for review. I'm still a bit concerned about the tension management because the overarching crescendo is not that noticeable, but the bridges between the different themes should provide enough variation to keep things interesting.
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This is a mashup between Lifestream and the themes for Cloud (i.e. the FF7 main theme), Tifa and Aerith. The original plan was to include all character themes, but squeezing them into the 6/8 meter and completely changing the harmonies around to fit the Lifestream backing proved to be a bit too challenging.
Every character has their dedicated woodwind instrument: Cloud is the clarinet, Tifa is the oboe and Aerith is the flute. When a character's theme becomes the main focus they are also doubled by a solo string instrument in the same register order: Cello for Cloud, viola for Tifa and violin for Aerith. Every focused theme is also accompanied by fragments of the other character themes using their respective instruments. The fragments are sometimes stretched or squished, and sometimes only the melodic idea remains. Mostly for Cloud this can render the original song somewhat unrecognizable, for example at 2:18. And again for Cloud, because the main theme is so long and they had to be changed to fit, the two fragments at 2:46 and 2:54 may not immediately ring a bell because they are from completely different parts of the original and preserve only certain musical aspects.
This is my first try at really integrating multiple songs into one arrangement, but I'm highly satisfied with the result. I think the piece in its entirety is cohesive enough to be perceived as one and not just multiple arrangements tacked together, so it should still qualify for OCR submission.
Edit: Updated attached music file.
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Thank you for the evaluation!
I definitely struggled with setting apart the second iteration of the main theme from the first one. To visualize the structure to make it more explainable, the parts are
Intro, A1, A2, B1 (brass) , C (tremolos), A3, A4, B2
The intensity is currently A1 < A2 = A3 < A4, in fact the only major change between A2 and A3 is swapping the melody support from second to first violins and the tacit on second violins. This is mainly to set A3 apart from A1, and back then I couldn't easily think of more what I could have done. Your comment about subtractive arranging is spot on though. I could have removed the irish flute from A3 and A4 completely and replaced it with alternate instruments; for example have woodwinds do the melody in A3 with the strings supporting and swap that around for A4 (I really like the current sound of the doubled melody across the violins and violas). The irish flute could then come back in for the finale in B2. I might toy around with that before submitting, which I definitely will do
And I will have to come up with a name for the song, oh dear...
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Thanks for your impressions.
The flute is Embertone's Shire Whistle which punches way above its price point. The ornaments were just me being a derp, most notes were input via mouse and not played in. The general idea is now to have the first run of the theme melody be just that and the second run to add some more variation in the form of ornaments and portamentos.
As for how to make the arrangement stand out more, right now this is as far as my current ability will carry me. This is only my fifth finished work and I will need to gather more experience with other songs to get a better grip on what could be further improved. I already learned a lot from this arrangement, and I hope this trend will continue with the next arrangements I will attempt. However, my main goal was not to make the arrangement different for the purpose of making it different, but to create something that I would enjoy listening to, and regarding this aspect I am quite satisfied. I'm particularly proud of the various counterpoints, the use of tremolos and trills, and the brief Prelude phrase.
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It's been done to death, but here's one more arrangement to add to the pile of Terra's theme remixes.
It's almost done and currently I only plan on very minor revisions, mainly some small issues in the brass and the ornaments of the irish flute in the beginning. I'd be glad for any feedback though. Note that the strings are positioned in German seating, so from left to right it's Violins 1, Chellos, Violas, Violins 2, and with Basses on the left behind Violins 1. All other sections are close to where you would usually expect them.
The arrangement is as strightforward as it could be so it probably doesn't qualify for the level of transformative work required by the OCR standards, but I'll probably still give it a shot.
Edit: Updated to final version.
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Updated to V1.7:
- Fixed clipping issues during tutti sections.
- Fixed some balancing issues in certain parts.
- EQ'ing on several instruments.
- Changed reverb just a bit.
- Redid the automation of some parts of the first violins (the story never ends...).
I will let this sit for some days and come back with a fresh ear, but aside from some minor fixes I'd consider this (finally) done.
I will probably never be entirely happy with the realism of the violins, but I've run out of ideas what I could try. The only real big option would be dynamic vibrato changes, but VSL Dimension Strings is fatally flawed in that patches with and without vibrato have different volumes with the non-vibrato patches being way too quiet. This makes the non-vibrato patches effectively unusable in any melodic situation.I wonder if there's anything I'm doing fundamentally wrong in the way I'm using the sound libraries, but from everything I've seen I've exhausted most features which could improve the realism.
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Updated to V1.6:
- Fixed really obnoxious oboe as described in previous post.
- Finished reworking all remaining instruments.
There's still some things left to fix in the first violins, but aside from the last remaining task is cleaning up the mix. I've already eq'ed into the basses a bit to clean up some muddiness, but the lower brass probably also still has something to fix.
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Updated to V1.5:
- Changed woodwind samples
- Upgrade string samples
- Redid all automation for woodwinds, brass and ensemble strings
- Lots of reverb and mixing changes
The solo strings still need a pass as well as the melodic percussion. Some things have to be fixed here and there in the first violins.
Edit: Also after listening to it on some thin speakers...wow, that oboe doubling the strings has to go...
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Thanks for the comments!
@JulienMulard Yes, I'm still working on this. I got halfway through the new woodwinds so far and will probably post an update after those are done. After that it's back to the strings because of course VSL had to do a christmas sale...
@JohnStacy I explicitly dislike the modern "big cinematic" style of orchestation with lots of brass and percussion (oh god the overwhelming percussion). This ain't no Bach, but it's a lot closer to what I prefer an orchestra to sound like. The sound I strive for would be that of the performance of the Chrono Trigger/Cross arrangement in "Symphonic Fantasies".
The second piano roll picture is me going "ok, let's write a counter point for the oboe and another one for the clarinet and then double the octaves and..." without thinking. Aside from the problem that you can't really make them out anyway over everything that's going on, there's a lot of minor seconds over long periods of time which make absolutely no sense. The first picture is just the main melody doubled in thirds/fourths and the counterpoint doubled in thirds/fourths which is really boring from an arrangement point of view, but at least it works (hence "ok-ish").
Your remarks regarding the sample quality are actually a real downer because (at least for the current version) the strings are Vienna, the woodwinds are EastWest and the solo strings are Embertone, so the quality should be palatable at least. Could you give some more details where you think the sample quality is lacking?
The strings will get an upgrade to VSL Dimension Strings which will finally allow me to access different finger positions to fix some issues which have been bothering me for the longest time (I used to played the violin half a lifetime ago, so I'm sensitive to strings in general). The woodwinds still need work regarding humanization and the brass I'd consider finished. I'm still not happy with the beginning of the solo viola performance because the empty strings make it sound too harsh, but the Embertone VST doesn't seem to support forced finger positions. The solo chello part I'd consider finished. -
Updated to V1.3:
- Fixed a bunch of issues in the solo and ensemble strings that were really bugging me, mostly related to consistent timbre, volume and timing.
- Fixed accidental double reverb on double basses and trombones (yay, less muddyness).
- Dropped BPM from 70 to 68.
- Stretched out ending decelerando to create more gravitas (?).
- Added the same panning effect to ostinato strings at the end as is also used in the beginning. It doesn't really fit the song's storyline but makes the song overall more musically coherent and this section in particular a lot less fatiguing.
- Added gradual crescendo in the strings for the opening part.
- Decreased volume of the background strings in the ending part to better highlight the front melodies.
Next up is a change in the woodwind samples which will finally allow me to do unison sections without phasing issues so I can unclutter the woodwinds. Right now there's lots of unison between for example a single flute and clarinet because unison between the two flutes just wouldn't work. This change should really de-clutter the sound scape a lot.
While I'm at I should also rewrite certain parts of the woodwinds because this is ok-ish writing:
And this is just me being a huge derp:
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Updated to V1.2:
- Massively (in my opinion) improved the string sections by messing with attack and release envelopes.
- General improvements to ensemble and solo strings regarding volume and timbre consistency. Also made ostinatos less robotic in general for all sections by varying CC1 more.
- Changed the added phrase from V1.1 to not include high woodwinds any more because they seemed very out of place.
- Increased volume by 2db, but this might break things in tuttis louder than in this particular song.
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Updated to V1.1:
- Fiddled with the reverb and stereo spread of the ensembles in an attempt to clear up the soundscape a bit.
- Added another retrospective phrase at 2:53 to close the gap to the last ostinato repetition.
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Original song:
I've worked on this on and off for way longer than I'd like to admit, but it's finally in a stage I'm comfortable taking comments.
V1.0:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191101.ogg
5.0 surround version (untested): http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191101_surround.oggV1.1:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191109.ogg
5.0 surround version (untested): http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191109_surround.oggV1.2:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191121.ogg
5.0 surround version (untested): http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191121_surround.oggV1.3:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191212.ogg
5.0 surround version (untested): http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20191212_surround.oggV1.5:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20201011.oggV1.6:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20201012.oggV1.7:
http://www.kozanryusui.net/sakkyoku_nikki/20201015.oggThe titular castle is the 5th stage of Touhou Double Dealing Character (or Touhou Kishinjou), an inverted castle floating in the sky. The original title 空中に沈む輝針城 ("Kuuchuu ni shizumu kishinjou") translates to "Castle of the shining needles, sinking into the sky". I've tried to emulate a journey through the castle:
0:00 - 0:40: Enclosing onto the castle through the cloudy sky, eventually reaching the front gates (which you can hear open if you listen closely)
0:41 - 2:26: Journying through the increasingly grand corridors and halls of the castle
2:27 - 3:08: Slowly tracking back while basking in the afterglow
3:09 - 3:23: Falling out the main gate into the evening sky (the gate closes behind you)I've loved this theme ever since I first played the game. It was the first 5th stage theme for me to finally knock the one from Touhou Mountain of Faith off its first place pedestral, and it has become one of my favorites in the entire Touhou music corpus.
Initially my main motivation for creating the arrangement was to mark the climax off with the bells at 2:12 and the rest of the arrangement was just fluff to get there. Later on the actual climax shifted two more measures to the part at 2:17 because I just love deceptive cadences.The rest of the arrangement should be a very straightfoward orchestration. I've taken some liberties with the instrumentation, chord progression and custom counter points, but it's essentially a single run-through of the original song. The seating of the orchestra is German instead of American (second violins opposite first violins, basses to the left etc.) which is mostly noticable during the beginning.
Considering how much I fought with almost every aspect of the song I'd be grateful for any comments on pretty much anything. The 5.0 version is a byproduct of my workflow which I cannot test due to a lack of a surround setup, so please don't expect it to be well-engineered.
I'm not sure if this arrangement would cut it for submission-level quality. Judging from the other orchestral arrangements on the site so far I'm tending towards no, but I could only find either Hollywood-style arrangements (i.e. with lots of supporting percussion and/or non-orchestral instruments) or rather mellow arrangements which tend to be not as thickly layered, so I'm not really sure if these comparisons are any good indicator.
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Thanks for the feedback again. I updated the first post with a new version.
Changelog:
* Panning changes:
- mirrored horns to the right
- adjusted violins and flute to the right
- tried and failed to center the harp; this is about as much as it can go without producing strange artifacts
* Added percussion: timpani and (sparingly) cymbal
* Removed harp offsyncness
* Added direct download link.
And btw, this is a double bass and I can assure you this song has plenty of it ;D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass
OCR04414 - Final Fantasy X "Yuna at Zanarkand, Her Mind on Lost Friends"
in ReMix Reviews & Comments
Posted
To be honest I also just yoinked that idea from a Youtube video where it was explained as the orchestra following the conducter who is also not a perfect metronome. Same thing still applies if you don't have a conductor but your partner instruments to follow.
This is what the tempo looks like from start to finish. There's really no pattern to the changes, and that's kind of the point. Just an avarage target tempo that the gets played around.
And while I was in the project anyway, this is what the violin's automations look like during the climax at around 2:52. From the top it's bow speed (think volume), vibrato amplitude, vibrato speed, bow pressure and bow position between bridge and finger board. So yeah, this is where those 30 hours went...