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no i'm not, that's precisely the point... that explicit lyrics in music, and in this case specifically gang related or violent lyrics in rap, are not the same as hate speech or porn. there's no practical way to be able to differentiate between the content of any of tupac's music and, say, 50 cent (i don't like that we're completely focusing on this chump but just for the sake of continuity) on the surface, i'm sure one would surmise that they rap about the same things. but they really don't and tupac is widely considered one of the finest emcees to ever live mostly on account of his amazingly honest and revealing lyrics. i've used this same verse in many a debate (including a couple here on ocr lol) but: I hear the doctor standing over me screamin I can make it Got a body full of bullet holes layin here naked Still I, can't breathe, somethings evil in my IV Cause everytime I breathe, I think they killin me I'm having nightmares, homicidal fantasies I wake up stranglin, danglin my bed sheets I call the nurse cause it hurts, to reminisce How did it come to this? I wish they didn't miss Somebody help me, tell me where to go from here Cause even Thugs cry, but do the Lord care? Try to remember, but it hurts I'm walkin through the cemetary talkin to the, dirt I'd rather die like a man, than live like a coward There's a ghetto up in Heaven and it's ours, Black Power is what we scream as we dream in a paranoid state And our fate, is a lifetime of hate Dear Mama, can you save me? And fuck peace Cause the streets got our babies, we gotta eat No more hesitation each and every black male's trapped And they wonder why we suicidal runnin round strapped Mista, Po-lice, please try to see that it's a million motherfuckers stressin just like me Only God can judge me is an excellent example of why it's impossible to ever really be able to weed out bad rap from good rap based on whether the lyrical content is too violent, too honest or too explicit unless we had some national lyric board like our judges panel here that would sit and sift through every potential track and determine, subjectively, whether it is good or not. "only god can change me" is a brilliant song with an incredibly transparent and honest message and while it doesn't tell young black kids to go shoot each other and do drugs, it certainly does draw light to the situation and even goes to explain it a little. the hood is a terrible place and it can do terrible things to those in it black, brown, yellow or white. sublime was testament to this too. their lyrics are in many ways also like rap lyrics... "40 oz to freedom" is not exactly the message you want your teenagers hearing and running out to buy a 40 right? and yet sublime was a great band known for their genuine lyrics the problem with regulating any of it is that you'd have to somehow be able to say that this sheer honesty in music, something that is so rare and so delicious when heard is also something very bad. because it would be otherwise difficult to point out, consistently, why the lyrics to either of the afore mentioned songs are any different or better or less harmful than the standard money-stackin, ass-smackin pseudo-gang shit. and we'd lose a brilliant artist like eminem entirely who revels in intentionally abrasive topics and lyrics i'm not saying that legal regulation is always bad but i think in this instance it definitely would be.

ding ding ding!

right? hehe

well i certainly hope i'm not being ignored because i'm saying this discussion won't get anyone anywhere and is a fapfest. because that's what it is but what are we really discussing here? are we complaining about cursing as a fundamentally bad thing? are we criticizing the music industry as a cash machine that encourages lazy but marketable music? are we discussing the social influence of popular music or any kind of media for that matter? are we really talking about art at all here or just using it to cop out of addressing the actual issue (whatever that is)? or maybe we're just poppin off on all of em simultaneously what i think bothers A-Ron the most (i did say "i think"... i have no idea what bothers A-Ron anymore) is that cursing is bad. it's not a respectful or decent way to communicate for a god-fearing individual. cursing is fundamentally wrong. whether in rap or not. is that what y'all are talking about? no? moving on. the music industry has, especially now, become polarized. on one end, you have a very strong independent vibe, with all of your internet sensations and bedroom rockstars. for the past decade we've seen a movement away from having to "buy in" to the game in order to be heard. this community is a perfect example of this. the other polar end is the MACHINE. nothing wrong with music being produced and mass distributed as material that makes MONEY. doesn't mean it has to be bad or awful but it is definitely a product and it is constructed and designed as such. arguing that pop rap is this lazy, misogynist, dumb artform is probably true (oh noes the art card!) but still neither here nor there. rap as a genre is irrelevant to this conversation as been pointed out already... there are plenty of emcees out there who are beasts on a mic and can curse all they want (if we're not talking about the fundamental wrong of cursing, i'm assuming) because it is not used as a crutch nor out of laziness. so are we saying that all rap is bad? no? all pop music is fundamentally bad? no? moving on. naturally, all music like all other media influence society in powerful ways. it has been this way for centuries, actually. we shape society by the messages we give it. rap about shootin niggas in the club may or may not inspire someone to actually do it but more importantly is that it also sort of desensitizes us into accepting its realism and spreading awareness of it even if we don't approve of it at all. does that mean what we need is a social revolution? i mean, how else are you going to change the mindset of the people creating the media, the industry and business that distributes and proliferates the media and the consumers who eat it up because they like it? like Vagrance said, many people want the grit in their music or otherwise, we'd have a bunch of faker, lamer music. sadly, people are more interested hearing the grit far more than they are the message. that is proven the second you walk into any club from LA to NY. furthermore it's wrong to have the government intervene with any sort of expression or we'd eliminate a fundamental truth of being american so making any of this illegal would be a massive error and will never happen. so if it shouldn't be regulated and it can't be stopped without a serious cultural revolution, then what's the solution? because frankly discussing this without the hope of reaching an end is a FAPFEST. it's like art for art's sake lol and i apologize for discussing the art element. what we're talking about has nothing to do with art at all. if it did, there wouldnt be a need to discuss it as neither you nor i nor anybody on this earth can define limits to art or human expression. and we're not talking about cursing either. and we're not talking about rap and we're not talking about pop music. instead we're talking about whether it is right to proliferate messages that are "bad" and the answer is no. it is not right.

strangely enough, i find that both of you correct. and therein lies the problem. art for art's sake will always be a contentious issue when discussed on the fringes. vulgarity is often very difficult to ascertain. take fine art for example. not all people view nudity in art work as tasteful even when not explicitly sexual or smutty. my father was a great fine artist (and a student of realism) and his work often made people uncomfortable because of how incredibly realistic his nudes were even though they were not in compromising poses and he was the furthest thing from a perverted man; in fact he was extremely pious and religious and viewed his art as a tribute to the human form and the glory of god's creation (much like his hero and inspiration, michaelangelo). yet, the reality here is that the standard on what is and isn't considered vulgarity is never easy to define and never was for his entire career. because of that, the boundary on vulgarity is always pushed... and even excessively. there are people who are repulsed by slipknot or GWAR or marilyn manson... just the same as there are folks who cannot stomach eminem's language. however all of those artists are extremely talented (some more than others) and have made quite a living off of that very shock value because the boldness is an intrinsically evocative and luring human trait. take eminem for example. he's the best at what he does. i challenge anyone to find an emcee that is as clever with his lyrics, today, as eminem. you may not like him and a lot of people don't because he's so incredibly abrasive and nuts but the man can rhyme in ways i didn't even know where possible. and yet he is probably more vulgar than any of the guys mentioned so far (50 cent, in all his desired BADASSNESS, is not nearly as intimidating an emcee as a single hair on an isolated testicle of eminem's). and even that assertion is still entirely subjective. i think ultimately, this is one of those things that is better left alone even if we have the ability to investigate it, explore it and reason with it... and even if we have the freedom and willingness to debate it. EVEN if we feel we are obligated by our scientific and exploratory minds as human beings to get to the bottom of it and the only reason i say that is because it will never be resolved. the more we try to define the limits of what we can do as humans, the further we go to push those limits further away because as soon as we set that bar, somebody somewhere gets there, does it and pushes it further out and changes the whole game. and so we start again. i don't think anybody could have predicted that language in popular music would have turned out the way it has. remember, elvis was vulgar in his day. he is a church mouse compared to some of the jackasses we have reigning the airwaves now. ============ as someone who has been mired in a debate on what can and can't or should and shouldn't be said in music, i can assure you of one thing; honesty will always be the breaking point in the discussion. i ran into this issue with niggaz 4 life but was far too young and immature to truly explain the phenomenon properly. whereas there could be issue with the specific words that an artist chooses (and a serious artist doesn't do much accidentally), it should be the artist's prerogative to be honest. we lose respect for people and trust in them when they deceive us in any facet of life... interpersonal relationships, business relations, politics and likewise in our media and art. there's nothing i abhor more than a dishonest emcee (and even i've been dishonest before... not often but at times lol). dishonesty in art, at least for me, is very easy to spot and is ultimately the deal breaker. when people force things for whatever reason they may have done it, it has an unmistakable thud. genuine expression rings loud and clear. maybe i have supernatural hearing but that is unlikely.

hahahhahah dude, i've watched axel's "dream" three times in a row just now so good.

happy birthday

i'm totally brown like dahlsim and a badass like link

and GANON

and beyond that, even, you're trolling the crap out of the crakaz which is immature at best. you make it a point to bring up how irrelevant and awful they are every moment you get. i know cam and flik personally and knowing them is precisely the reason why the crakaz is so frickin' funny. it's completely awesome. i wish i had an inkling of the sense of humor that flows between those guys. are they going to spit anyone under the table? no. but are they trying to? i feel where you're coming from, aaron, and like we've been over this so many times before... there are different styles of hip hop. you and i have agreed before that we both prefer the ol skool and i'd take KRS ONE over any of these suckaz today in a heartbeat. it's great that you aspire to spread a better message with your music in a genre that is predominantly populated with garbage but what are you doing about it?????????? NOTHING. NOTHING OUTSIDE OF WAH WAHW WAH WAH WAH WAH. modern rap may be vulgar and barbaric and crude and primitive or whatever else you want to attribute to it but the fact remains, it still has far more BALLS than you do and that is a significant trait. you know what makes a great emcee? BALLS. BALLS TO SAY WHAT YOU MEAN and TO SAY IT ON A BEAT. quit spamming forums with your "omg they cuss" bullshit and do it on a track. i've even suggested this to you before several times over the last SEVERAL years and i've yet to see you do it. the solution is very simple: STEP A: Find an awesome source from an awesome game and make a killer beat from it (i know you know how to do this) STEP B: Write awesome lyrics about how profoundly ignorant rhymeskill has become and how profanity cheapens the artform (i know you know how to do this) STEP C: Do it LIVE STEP D: Submit to OCR and show us why we could be all wrong about this whole thing. (i'm sure you still remember how to do this) it's really very simple. if you have a vision, express it. what you're doing is just something else entirely.

A-RON record a track about it sometime instead of complaining about all the rap in the world for the 2nd decade in a row? i feel i'm in a fucking time machine every time i see your name pop up. my goodness, my man... i don't even remember the last time i heard a track from you? i almost forgot you could flow

this is the best music

says the guy with a mechwarrior thing in his sig ============= ok, i repent on most of my previous statements about the game. i love it. there is still a distinct "dumbing down" but i've come to the conclusion that this is a matter of simplifying the gameplay process in order to complicate the gameplay experience? not sure if i am able to explain it right... but it seems to me that the game does an excellent job of managing "flow" this time around... it feels far less of a boardgame like most civ games have felt like and now feels more like a real time history game masked within the structure of a turn based one. an example of what i'm blabbing about is the embark promotion. whereas you had to build all sorts of transports in order to move your troops around in the water, you can now send them across inland seas and shallow seas without. this is certainly simplifying the gameplay and requiring the player to play a little less complicated and reduces stress of "damnit, i need to build another transport!" by a smidge. i don't think that's a bad thing. the advisors are kinda neat too. i've been playing civ since "the dawn of time immemorial" and also didn't think i needed a bunch of advisors to tell me what to do. except the chicks are kinda hot, my scientist is a total dork and a brotha and frankly, it reminds me of shit that i'm not really keeping track of sometimes. not bad... the combat system is taking time to get used to although i already love it. i'm having a slight learning curve for some reason getting used to how to siege and take a fortified, well defended city still. but all in good time. i would have preferred that they LIMITED stacking versus removing it entirely. in other words, i'd have been ok with being able to stack up to two land units if they were different... e.g. archers stacked with ballistas. i hated stacks of doom because they were senselessly boardgamish and nothing was more nonsensical than building a shit ton of siege weapons in your city to throw at a stack for collateral damage haha. and i LOVE ranged attack. yeeeee the graphics are ridiculous. so is the whole aesthetic. i'm not sure about any of the rest of the civs yet because i only played as egypt (of course) and russia but gtfo the egyptian music is off the fucking chain. when i say they have legitimately authentic egyptian music, i'm not kidding. this isn't like a soundtrack of wannabe middle eastern sounding scales or some shit. this is very much specifically egyptian and the oud playing is LEGIT. i'm half expecting the game to bust out with om kalthoum or sayed macawy at any moment. i was blown away with the authenticity of the experience. i'm kinda let down the units don't speak in their native tongue (or at all)... but it's a minor quip. visually... shit like the sun shining down on the beautiful two tone ocean gives me boners. i was completely wrong. my buddy had a horrible setup... on my machine, the game appears and sounds flawless (though what's the deal with the non moving trees???) no animals. hmm. the barbs are kinda pussies in this game. i smash mouthed every barb i saw with very little effort. the levels are also really easy. it took me a while to adapt to prince on civ 4 but i'm lapping all my competitors on it already on my first time playing a full on game of civ 5. maybe there's a huge leap at monarch but already the game feels a LOT easier. higher civ levels are notorious for their difficulty (evil AI bonuses) the civlopedia is WHACK. all they had to do was copy the civlopedia from civ 4. what the shit is this??? what the hell is the point of pacts of cooperation or secrecy? it seems like pact of secrecy only means you're agreeing with someone else to undermine another civ by not trading with them and encouraging others not to. makes sense but what is the point of saying yes or no? by saying no, you can still do it... but there really isn't no hit to your relations with the leader who asked. maybe my real issue is that they've replaced the +/- system of determining relations between civs... and as a result, there's no real quick way to see how you're doin with someone. the diplomacy in the game is fun, it's fresh and i like it... but it can be tweaked. phew. sorry about that lol back to war!

hahahahaha wow and is it just me or does elizabeth really come across as a total bitch?

hahah especially montezuma? what? (i didn't get to see him in the little i played) yeah, it appears i must have been simply playing on a weak system... although my initial impression that the game had been dumbed down still feels right that said, i shouldn't say anymore until my copy arrives in a couple days

happy birthday bro!

While the new album, A Mild Suggestive Moment, is coming out October 1st, the OCR community gets it early! This is my tenth "release" and marks a major transition for me and my work. I'm really excited about what comes next! You can check out the album at Bandcamp A "music video" (hahah noob) of 'brother, brother' can be found at You can find me on Facebook, MySpace and follow me on Twitter And all that (and more in the next few days) can be found at my website! Thanks for supporting me and DIG IT

his installation must be bugged out then. none of them had audio. i will notify him of this at once. FUCK YOU AMNAZON!!!!!! where's my fucking game??!?

not only this but the game is a huge let down graphically for having been hyped up so much for its direcx ll capabilities. 1) why are the rivers just a blue shit stain painted on the map using mspaint? 2) really? the leaders aren't fully animated with voice acting? i'm, unfortunately, very critical of civ games. i've been playing them since i was a pup and the original game came out and this is just bleh. i haven't even gotten my own copy so i haven't been able to put the typical man hours i will invest in a sid meier product before making a final assessment but having fucked with it at a buddy's house, i have to say, while some elements are certainly refreshing.... this game is clearly the result of giving production control to a console game team (those who made revolutions) and had them take a stab at making a PC game. there is utterly no other explanation for the heinous removal of keyboard shortcuts and the inane oversimplification of this game. it's as if sid meier is unabashedly selling out to the masses with this rockstar version of the ol' standard. forgive me rant but i am slightly heartbroken right now. i will hopefully have a different opinion when i have my own copy in my hands

stupid fucking amazon. what's the point of having pre-ordered the game 3 months in advance if you're going to ship it the day it comes out? i could have walked to best buy and bought it... i could have steam'd it. but no. i chose to suck. thank you, amazon

i totally agree on either of those two picks being a bad fit for the bills but mcnabb would have been a good fit except for his bad contract. if the skins wanna deal with him at that age at that price, go right ahead... but for a team trying to rebuild, that was a bad investment. ugh, your receiving corps is not very talented as receivers... you just got a lot of speed out there (roscoe). because evans can't handle double coverage (as we have seen time and time again) it would make sense to have invested some draft picks in that direction but nothing doin, i guess? it seems so long ago (though it really isn't at all) that the bills started off 5-0 before it all just imploded upon itself.

well, you're both right. while you have an abundance of talent in the backfield and in your secondary, other key positions are severely lacking in talent, QB being the prime example. there has been some speed and skill to come through on the outside at wideout but there's nobody with more than just average reliability under center to throw it to them the bills have had their shots at getting some QBs and instead have fucked around with the likes of fitzpatrick, losman, and edwards.

lol strangely awesome

they look tough in the 2nd quarter of this one. the pack came out quick but y'all secondary is solid. if only the bills had any kind of offense

yeah except hanson misses the field goal very short, joshua cribbs was standing back there, grabs the rock and runs it back 100 yards or so ala antonio cromartie for a walk off TD