Logic vs. FL Studio

[EternalWrath]

So, last time I was on these forums, I asked about FL Studio, got some various responses, and decided to give it a try. Long story short- I got busy with schoolwork this year and never actually managed to buy it, and now that I'm looking for a new laptop for college I'm considering getting a Mac. Assuming that I don't get one of the programs that lets me run Windows on a Mac, I am looking at Logic.

I still haven't decided what computer I will buy yet (all I know is that it will be a laptop) but what music program I want to use will certainly affect my decision. So for those of you familiar with either Logic or FL (or preferably both) give me some feedback on the pros and cons of each.

[analoq]

well, what kind of music do you make? And what are you going to be making it with? I mean, are you recording guitars and vocals or are you doing everything 'in-the-box' ?

And why are you limiting yourself to FL and Logic? There's Ableton and others which run on both platforms.

[Yoozer]

You don't have to be familiar with each to come to the conclusion that it's apples and oranges you're comparing, and not even because they're on different platforms .

One drawback: due to being on the Mac, you won't have as many freeware plugins available.

[SnappleMan]

Your style of music doesn't really matter, you need whatever will give you the most flexibility and the most room to grow. With FL Studio, you're limited because it's very dependent on loops, Ableton is great, but it's tailored more towards users who use their computers as an instrument on stage. Logic is the best of your options, while it's not as easy to create loops like in FL (it's easy, just different) and will not work for real time arranging like Ableton, it excels in every other aspect of music creation.

[OceansAndrew]

I am completely in love with Logic and don't even have the newest and coolest version yet. The learning curve in 7 can be pretty steep for even the simplest things (like options that only seem to have hotkeys and no menu items), but I've heard 8 is much more user friendly.

I've had a lot less experience with FL, but I didn't find the layout to be as intuitive, personally, because of it's reliance on building loops.

[zircon]

Having used both FL and Logic (extensively) I agree with Yoozer that you're comparing apples and oranges. Speaking very generally, it's far easier to sequence anything using FL. No other program lets you get to making music faster, IMO. But Logic's workflow, while more complicated, is insanely feature-rich, so if you need to do some kind of weird editing operation, not only will Logic handle it, but there will be five different ways to do so.

[EternalWrath]

To be honest, I'm not completely clear on what "sequencing" is, though I have a vague sense of it, so I don't know what it means for FL to be more geared towards sequencing or not.

I plan to do a variety of music, some of them remixes of video games that I'd like to submit to this site, and others original compositions. My main styles are techno, jazz/blues, and orchestrated, though I might want to branch out to others later on. I plan to do most of my work through the computer itself, either through score writing (which Logic seems to have) or the piano note thing that FL has. Hopefully this information helps some.

I've done a few short pieces on Sibelius (which stinks because it can't export to mp3 format and the sound quality is poor) so you can click here if you want to hear a sample of my work. It's a jazzy happy birthday remix I wrote for my sister.

[avaris]

Hey dude if you don't know what sequencing is it might be beneficial to watch different videos of both programs in action. There is no demo of Logic so this is prob your best bet to really get a hands on look at it.

FL Studio:

http://videotutorials.e-officedirect.com/videotutorials.exe?forumname=flstudio

Logic:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=SFLogicNinja&page=3

They both have piano rolls that actually act very similar in terms of inputing and editing notes.

[Yoozer]

To be honest, I'm not completely clear on what "sequencing" is

It's what you do when you make music with a sequencer, e.g. play the notes in such a sense that they're not recorded as plain sound to tape.

There used to be a difference, and a sequencer used to be a box with 8 or 16 steps linked to a modular synthesizer, and each step could have a different pitch, volume or other factor to control.

though I have a vague sense of it, so I don't know what it means for FL to be more geared towards sequencing or not.

Both Logic and FL sequence, it's just that Logic is linear (there's one long sequence, if you need anything to repeat you have to copy & paste it) and FL is pattern based. E.g., it expects you to compose your music in similar blocks (for instance, you could re-use the "chorus" and "verse" block).

I plan to do a variety of music

As Snappleman said, the kind of music and the software you use aren't related. However, the pattern based nature of FL is an advantage for most electronic music; on the other hand, a lot of electronic music has been made with Logic already.

If you want notation, Logic (or Cubase) has the advantage, but Logic's at a pretty unbeatable price point.

[Fishy]

If you buy Logic Studio, you will get a whole bunch of synths and samples that can do the job for a very wide range of styles. Its cheap, its not too difficult to learn and a lot of pros use it.

FL is one o' them things, you're either zircon and wave your zircwand and awesome music comes out, or you're someone else and it just seems harder to make good stuff with it :/.

I recommend Logic Studio, but FL has much more compatability with sample libraries and plugins and stuff. Also it has VST support. I would say go with Logic unless you really really need to use a VST that doesn't work with it.

[Patrick Burns]

Logic Studio seems to always win out on paper - it has so many features at a good price. I would advise, though, because of how new you are to the process, that you not invest completely in it at this point. On one hand, because it is pro software you will learn quite a bit, but on the other hand you are forced to learn quite a bit before you can get going.

I bought Logic Express 7 at a time when my only experience was a Yamaha keyboard. It took a about 6 to 8 months of learning Logic and all things electronic music before I could really get into the program and let some ideas flow to a finished product. After 4 years, I recently bought Logic Studio and enjoy it very much. (omg I can't believe it's been 4 years )

Unless you rule out Macintosh before you buy, I think the ideal situation would be to buy a Mac and run a XP partition. All new Macs have Boot Camp installed - all you need is an WindowsXP SP2 installation disc (SP2 must be on the disc, you can't install SP1 and upgrade). Then you could try both sides of the spectrum.

In any event, don't buy Logic Studio from the get go. At least try Logic Express 8 first. (Its price + the upgrade to Logic Studio = the original price of Logic Studio.)

[zircon]

Logic's piano roll is harder to use than FL's. It makes me extremely frustrated every time I have to put up with it, with weird behavior that I can't figure out how to change or turn off, such as making all the notes from other MIDI parts randomly appear in the part I'm currently editing, simply because I'm dragging a note around.

[Patrick Burns]

Logic's piano roll is harder to use than FL's. It makes me extremely frustrated every time I have to put up with it, with weird behavior that I can't figure out how to change or turn off, such as making all the notes from other MIDI parts randomly appear in the part I'm currently editing, simply because I'm dragging a note around.

word

I've been using it so long I can anticipate it. I usually swear a half-second before they all pop up. I'm not sure what that is.

[avaris]

From the Logic Manual

To show the note events of all MIDI regions in a project:

Ensure that View > Show Selected Regions Only is switched off, then double-click on the background of the Piano Roll Editor.

The start point of each MIDI region is indicated by a vertical line of the same color as the MIDI region itself.

Double-click on a note event to revert to a display of the contents of a single parent MIDI region (the region that contains the note.

OR

To limit the display to note events of selected MIDI regions:

Switch View > Show Selected Regions Only on.

This restricts the Piano Roll display to the note events of MIDI regions selected in the Arrange area. Logically, this hides the events of non-selected regions, making multiregion editing simpler.

This is a feature similar to Cubase's piano roll. Where you can view multiple midi events and edit them at the same time. When you have multiple midi regions selected at the same time and open the piano roll; it shows all of the selected regions.

Do you guys know per chance when it happens when the other notes show up? I've never had it happen unless I highlight another midi region.

The biggest similarity I was hinting at is the pencil tool. It acts basically identical to FL's. You can resize, input, and move single notes in the same way. Editing velocity in FL is a easier.

To the OP def go with Express first if you choose to use Logic.

[Patrick Burns]

Do you guys know per chance when it happens when the other notes show up? I've never had it happen unless I highlight another midi region.

I'd never seen that bit in the manual. It's in the Logic 8 manual which I haven't spent much time reading. I looked for a similar section in the 7 reference but couldn't find anything.

I never noticed any consistencies before it happened in 7 - just a short pause when it wouldn't respond before they appeared, and I could never reproduce it at will.

As far as how to make it happen in 8... yes, if I highlight multiple regions then all of those notes will appear in the integrated arrange window piano roll, but I'm not sure that is what the manual is talking about. I notice the horizontal scroll bar changing depending on if I double-click on the background or a note, but regardless of what combination of regions I have in the project, I can't make notes from other regions appear.

The problem is I can't find the menu options that the manual excerpt is referencing, but I'm one of the least observant people I know, so its probably sitting somewhere in plain sight.

[zircon]

The biggest similarity I was hinting at is the pencil tool. It acts basically identical to FL's. You can resize, input, and move single notes in the same way. Editing velocity in FL is a easier.

Nah, I disagree with this too. In Logic, the behavior is not nearly as simple. I don't have both programs in front of me, but I know with FL's pencil tool - and NO OTHER tools or shortcuts - you can do virtually anything with extreme easy. Right click to delete, left click and drag to move, left click and drag while placing a note to drag in any direction (and hear the notes sound off while doing so) etc. Logic takes 2-3x as long to sequence anything in.

[Lunahorum]

The only thing I don't like about FL is the pattern selector. It is sort of stupid how their are different patterns to select from. I usually just write the whole thing in one pattern anyways.

[Smenelian]

I wish they would combine the capabilities of the selection tool to the pencil tool for the ultimate sequencing tool. I switch between those two more often than any others and I think it would be easy enough to put them together.

[Rozovian]

Smenelian seems to be needing Logic 8. Logic 8 has some degree of customization, you can customize the left- and right-click behavior. By default, left-click is for moving and resizing notes and regions (or loops), and the right-click is a multiple selection tool. I've changed the right-click to be create new regions/notes instead, since I can select with the left-click tool anyway. Left-click and right-click then select (and modify) and create notes/regions respectively, pretty much as you needed. Deleting notes is done via backspace, tho you can customize that to happen on right-click too if you prefer that.

On a laptop, the command button lets me change between the two buttons, it gets intuitive after a litle while, especially since I was familiar with GarageBand. WHen you do need to change tools, pressing escape will open the tool menu where your cursor is at.

EternalWrath, if you're getting a relatively recent Mac that you can run Windows on, try out FL. If you get GarageBand with it, try that out too (on the Mac side, obviously). GB is an oversimplified version of Logic 8, at least in terms of interface and features, but it should at least let you be more familiar with it.

Then it's just a matter of preference and requirements.

--

As for the confusion of notes from multiple regions in the same view... Double-clicking on the background is gonna display all notes. Looped regions' notes are only displayed first, the notes aren't repeated. In Logic 8, selecting multiple regions displays all notes in those regions. Double-clicking the background does the same thing as in Logic 7 afaik. It's useful when you know what you're doing, but I understand it's frustrating if it happens by accident. There might be some keystroke that does this too.

[avaris]

All of this in is regards to the pencil tool, unless stated otherwise. All differences in terms of workflow are highlighted in bold.

(Note in both programs the size of the note to be entered is determined by the size of the last note you inputted, moved, or resized)

Entering Notes:

Logic: a single left click enters notes. (The length is determined by the length of the previous note you inputted or moved. If you left click and hold while entering a note you can resize it by moving the mouse around left and right.)

FL: a single left click enters notes. (The length is determined by the length of the previous note you inputted or moved. If you left click and hold while entering a note you can move it.)

Moving Notes: (both with pencil tool)

Logic: Move cursor over the midi note region. Left click in the body of the note to move note in all directions.

FL: Move cursor over the midi note region. Left click in the body of the note to move note in all directions.

Resizing Notes After Input:

Logic: Move cursor over left or right side of note to resize in any direction.

FL: Move cursor over right side of note to resize in any direction.

Delete Existing Notes:

Logic: Double click with left mouse button to delete a note.

FL: Right click with mouse button to delete a note.

Listen to Notes as you Input, Move, and/or Resize them:

Logic: Press the Midi Out button in the piano roll so it highlights itself in green. (this is on by default) You will hear the note on input or when you move it around.

FL: You will hear the note on input or when you move it around. (you cannot turn this feature off. I looked in the options for FL but did not find a way to turn this off.)

Move/resize multiple notes:

Logic Hold the command key to use Pointer Tool. Drag to highlight multiple notes. Use either the Pencil or Pointer to move and/or resize groups of notes.

FL: Hold the ctrl key to highlight multiple notes. You move and/or resize groups of notes while holding the ctrl key or not holding the control key.

Delete Multiple Notes:

Logic: Hold the command key to use the Pointer Tool. Drag to highlight multiple notes. Hold command and x to cut all notes selected. OR Let go of command key and double click on any note within the group of notes to delete all notes selected.

FL: Hold the ctrl key to highlight multiple notes. Hold ctrl and x to cut all notes selected.

I think in this regard the pencil tools (primary input and delete method for notes) are very similar. Like Rozo said you can customize what tools are assigned to what mouse buttons in Logic 8. If this was not the case in the 7 my bad I’ve never used 7. I the example I was you would have the pencil tool selected as the primary tool, and the pointer tool selected as the secondary tool.

For me personally I will often enter in notes into the piano roll while other parts are playing. In this instance I do not want to hear a note play everytime I decid to resize, input, or move a note around. I only want to hear the notes I have already inputed. This is very annoying when working with any instrument with very long delays.

To the OP there are lil nuances between these features in both programs that can enhance your workflow or put a damper on it. Garageband will help you decide on whether or not a linear type of arrangement style will better suit you or not. FL has a very unique arrangement method that is a either a love or hate relationship.

[Beatdrop]

Actually, a couple of those things, at least in regards to FL, aren't entirely accurate.

For one, resizing a note after it's already inputted has to be done from the right side of the note, not the left. This is actually one thing I don't like about FL's sequencer, and that's that you can't resize backwards in time. Instead, you have to reposition the note's start point, and then stretch it to the appropriate length.

Secondly, in FL, selecting notes and simply hitting the delete key will delete them (as opposed to hitting ctrl-x to cut them).

I've never used Logic, so I don't think I can really contribute to this discussion, but it sounds like the Logic sequencer is somewhat similar to the sequencer in Reason, which I really detest.

Plus, I don't see the reasoning behind complaining about the pattern-based side of FL, because like someone else mentioned, you can compose an entire song in a single pattern. The patterns aren't really limited on how long they can be or how many different channels playing at one time they can contain. If you want a 120-measure pattern consisting of a lengthy piano solo or a strings arrangement, it can be done easily. I think the pattern-based editing actually helps out a whole lot in terms of programming recurring drum patterns, arpeggios, and other things like chord progressions. Saves a ton of time. And sequencing patterns throughout a song in FL is even easier than programming notes into the piano roll.

On top of that, as of FL 6 (I believe), you can convert any pattern into a pattern clip, which functions like a clip of audio that instead feeds off the channels/instruments loaded live into FL. You can slice and re-arrange the pattern clip without affecting the original pattern, which further saves time in programming quick drum fills and dramatic pauses. And getting right down to it, you can even do more complex things with it like completely rearranging a rapid melody, but this is kind of counter-productive as such a procedure would take longer this way than it would to simply reprogram it in the piano roll.

But that's all just my opinion as a diehard FL user for over 7 years. I could be wrong.

[zircon]

The differences you highlighted, avaris, are so major to me that they make Logic almost unusable for sequencing. I can't stand it. I have to play in everything live or I'm not able to use it. In FL, I can simply right click and drag to delete multiple notes. I don't have to double click on EVERY SINGLE note I want to delete, or use a lasso tool - the right click method is the ultimate, because what if I want to quickly delete a harmony a perfect sixth down from the main melody? If there are a lot of jumps, the lasso tool won't capture all those notes. The right click method works flawlessly.

Additionally, the inability to move a note immediately while placing it, and have it sound off there AND always sound off while it's being moved without using any other tool, is really a dealbreaker. The way I sequence, I NEED those things to work quickly and accurately. You might say you don't want to hear the full note because of release times, but this is never an issue for me in FL. If you click briefly on a note, even if it's long, you only hear the note for the duration of your click, pretty much. Likewise with dragging it around.

[Rozovian]

In Logic, you can do something similar to pattern-based sequencing, using loops instead of patterns. Looped MIDI regions. I don't know to what extent FL can use shorter measures, odd time signatures, and stuff, or playing stuff in different time signatures simultaneously, but Logic has no problem with that.

In FL, I can simply right click and drag to delete multiple notes. I don't have to double click on EVERY SINGLE note I want to delete, or use a lasso tool - the right click method is the ultimate, because what if I want to quickly delete a harmony a perfect sixth down from the main melody? If there are a lot of jumps, the lasso tool won't capture all those notes. The right click method works flawlessly.

The eraser tool - which can be customly set to be the right-click behavior - lets you wither click on a note to delete it, or select a bunch of notes and then click on them to delete.

You'd prefer working with pencil+eraser, whereas I work with pointer+pencil. Pressing delete (aka backspace) to delete notes selected with the pointer (dragged or shift-clicked) becomes as intuitive as right-clicking with the eraser. It's just a question of how you prefer to work. Anything you're used to is faster.

While a quick look around the MIDI settings and piano roll menus didn't reveal any way of shortening the playing of input notes to the duration of the click, I did find what avaris was talking about, shutting off the sound of notes being moved, resized, or input. That could be useful (green button sayin "out" in a pic of a MIDI plug, top left of editor) for me.

It's utlimately up to whatever you are / wanna get used to.

[zircon]

You'd prefer working with pencil+eraser, whereas I work with pointer+pencil. Pressing delete (aka backspace) to delete notes selected with the pointer (dragged or shift-clicked) becomes as intuitive as right-clicking with the eraser. It's just a question of how you prefer to work. Anything you're used to is faster.

The difference is that in FL, you don't need two separate tools. That's what I can't stand about Logic (or any other sequencer) but love about FL... I just don't have to change tools. The right click IS the eraser tool. Of course, FL also has a select/lasso tool, accessible with one keystroke, if you wanted to work that way. But right clicking to delete notes is far more precise than using the lasso tool, because if you're simply selecting multiple notes you can only do so if they fall within a rectangular box. If you're trying to delete the middle voice from a four part harmony chord progression, you'll have a hell of a time... whereas with a single drag-to-erase motion you could do it in less than two seconds.

[Rozovian]

You misunderstood. My bad.

The eraser tool - which can be customly set to be the right-click behavior - lets you wither click on a note to delete it, or select a bunch of notes and then click on them to delete.

You assign a tool to each mouse button. I shouldn't have said "right-clicking with the eraser", I should have said "right clicking - when the eraser is set to the right mouse button" or something like that. Logic's eraser tool isn't any different from how you're describing FL's.

You'd prefer working with pencil+eraser, whereas I work with pointer+pencil.

Pencil+eraser, that's how you'd set the button behaviors in Logic 8. By default, it's pointer+a selection tool, but it's easily customized. Next time you use Logic, you'll be able to customize the mouse button behavior to suit your workflow.

I use the pointer to select, move, and resize notes, and the pencil to create new ones. Like I said before, I don't need a separate eraser tool, I just select and press delete. That's how I do it, and I only need to change tools when changing note velocity. Using escape to change tools isn't very time-consuming anyway.