Metroid: Other M

[Overflow]

Come on, guys, are we really getting mad at Sakmoto for feeling protective over his own creation? Wouldn't you feel pretty protective over something you made? Any author can tell you how horrible it is to spend years on a novel, working tirelessly to turn it into what they've always wanted, just to have it mangled to death by an editor. Sakamoto is within his rights to say that his version of Samus is the right one, just as Miyamoto can say his version of Mario and Link is the right one, or how any writer can say that about their characters.

I know this to be true; my own creations are pretty personal and while I want them to appeal to others, I don't want to change their characters entirely just to suit someone else. I feel that this is how Sakamoto always viewed Samus. Retro studios didn't step out of line with her and didn't do anything new with her either, but I'm willing to bet Sakamoto was biting his nails when thinking about what they might do to her.

[Bleck]

I feel that this is how Sakamoto always viewed Samus.

I don't really think that this is a problem

it's more that he spent twenty years cultivating what was apparently the wrong character and then decided to delve into it all willy nilly

if you want to write a thing about how samus is in actuality an emotional little girl who never got over her fear of ridley and spends a lot of time whining about things to herself than MAYBE you should have done it as soon as possible instead of waiting until you could do it via two hours of UNSKIPPABLE FUCKING CUTSCENES

[Calpis]

Thank you Overflow and Malaki. I've been meaning to type something like that up about all this for several days now but didn't have the initiative. I don't think Sakamoto is being egotistical at all.

[The Author]

I don't really think that this is a problem

it's more that he spent twenty years cultivating what was apparently the wrong character and then decided to delve into it all willy nilly

if you want to write a thing about how samus is in actuality an emotional little girl who never got over her fear of ridley and spends a lot of time whining about things to herself than MAYBE you should have done it as soon as possible instead of waiting until you could do it via two hours of UNSKIPPABLE FUCKING CUTSCENES

Actually, the fear of Ridley is easily explained: at that point Samus had been delving a lot into her past, and being with Adam and the squad brought back memories of a time before she defeated

Ridley. It would make sense that in that mood, when the monster you have at this point killed about 6 times comes back once more you would end up freezing. Not only that but she also had 3 opportunities to kill it and didn't take them, because she saw his bunny form as innocuous, a mistake she made as a child with fully grown Ridley.

In the psychological progression of the story, feeling vulnerable at that point fits. It doesn't take anything away from Samus, it shows her as human. She pulled through and won that fight didn't she? (Not only that, but it was a kickass fight too)

As for the cutscenes. Yes, some of them seem to stretch a bit, but truth is, these are some minor pacing issues. I think the cutscenes are much less annoying than the "scan this pixel" puzzles or the "shoulder cam slow walk" moments.

As for "doing it when you could" argument:

Lets face it, this is the first "main story" game that actually has the means to do this. There was little to no story telling in platformers in the 8 bit era. It was just a fact of the medium. Metroid 1 was simple: kill enemies. No plot, no development, just walk around, kill enemies randomly and get power ups until you kill the right enemies and move on to the last one.

Metroid 2 had a lot more in terms of linear plot. It was still: kill enemies and move on. Again, it was representative of its era and genre.

Metroid 3 throws a curve ball. We get to see Samus under a different light, namely by the inflated baby metroid scenes. What Other M did with the Mother Brain fight felt logical, Samus was between rage and control, and she killed MB because she had to, and because she wanted to.You get that in Super Metroid through musical cues, and simply because the Hyper Beam is the most badass of all badass weapons.

Then there's the metroid blackout. Fusion broke the silence, and presented a new side of Samus. Her interaction with the CO showed that she had a sense of humor (calling him Adam) a sense of what's right and wrong (she is a bounty hunter but she still wants to save the world, even risking her life) and emotions: her please to the CO are very emotional and probably on the same level as she pleaded with Adam in sector 0.

Zero Mission shows again a strong Samus kinda plagued by her past. Her venture on Zebes is filled with comments regarding her past, heck it even ends on her doodle.

From Fusion and on, Metroids have had this constant look towards Samus's past. They have also developed her into a more well rounded figure, with emotions and weaknesses. Other M might have overdone it in some aspects (well, the cutscenes were kinda long) but overall it is just part of a narrative that was present, but wasn't done right either due to technology, or because it wasn't the right time in the series to do so (like the Prime series, which I enjoyed once, and haven't touched for a couple of years... unlike most Metroids that I tend to clear once a year at least (except 2, but that's a hardware issue.))

[Bleck]

In the psychological progression of the story, feeling vulnerable at that point fits. It doesn't take anything away from Samus, it shows her as human.

no it doesn't

if you step on a bug but then it doesn't die and you step on it six more times and then it looks like it's dead and some time later it pops up again all impudent

the only natural human response to this INTENSE IRRITATION

and maybe if it was the second time or even the third that ridley came back then MAYBE I would have understood the whole OH NO IT'S RIDLEY I THOUGHT HE WAS DEAD BAWWW nonsense

but at that point in timeline there was no reason for samus - assuming she is a relatively rational person - to think OH HE MUST BE DEAD FOR SURE FOR GOOD THIS TIME

every previous death had him either exploding into phazon or MELTING IN GOD DAMN LAVA and he always fucking comes back

this is seriously just a really, really poor attempt to shoehorn in some character development that should have been put in a game that came out fifteen years ago

As for "doing it when you could" argument:

Lets face it, this is the first "main story" game that actually has the means to do this.

bullshit

nobody in their right mind is going to sit there and tell me that snes games don't have the capacity to deliver a good story

[The Author]

Well, to be fair, I think that this story should have gone between Metroid 1 and 2, and the Primes should have come between 2 and 3. But that's just my opinion.

[Master_Yoshi]

no it doesn't

if you step on a bug but then it doesn't die and you step on it six more times and then it looks like it's dead and some time later it pops up again all impudent

the only natural human response to this INTENSE IRRITATION

and maybe if it was the second time or even the third that ridley came back then MAYBE I would have understood the whole OH NO IT'S RIDLEY I THOUGHT HE WAS DEAD BAWWW nonsense

but at that point in timeline there was no reason for samus - assuming she is a relatively rational person - to think OH HE MUST BE DEAD FOR SURE FOR GOOD THIS TIME

every previous death had him either exploding into phazon or MELTING IN GOD DAMN LAVA and he always fucking comes back

this is seriously just a really, really poor attempt to shoehorn in some character development that should have been put in a game that came out fifteen years ago

bullshit

nobody in their right mind is going to sit there and tell me that snes games don't have the capacity to deliver a good story

You're missing an even bigger point here.

They just DIDN'T have any character development in the previous games, except for a little bit about her dropping her mission of destroy all metroids when she had the chance to play mommy. She had less character development than even Gordon Freeman, who we at least know went to school at some point in MIT.

As far as faceless, identity-less characters go, Samus was a nintendo staple along with Mario - just a mindless drone tasked with taking care of generic big bad X. Even the jerks in Gears of War had some character depth. Samus had almost none.

This game tries to say "You know what? She did have depth, but I never really was able to display it before in the games because of the non-linear nature of their gameplay. I decided to put impeccable gameplay over storytelling but now I am going to try to merge them."

This is the first time that such a thing has been done in the metroid universe, and really the first time someone has taken a long-standing, well beloved and in some cases cult classic game, which is entirely gameplay driven with next to no plot or characterization, and insert some real meat storyline wise.

Well, sort of the second time. Fusion I see as an experiment, to see if that was even possible. There was a bit of a marriage between gameplay and story there, but I think it was more to see what audiences would react to. And people loved it, otherwise this wouldn't have been made.

Would you REALLY want another 20 metroid titles that were ripoffs of super metroid, where there was no growth in the characters, universe, or any of that related stuff? Prime sort of did that, and the third game is quite weak for it in comparison to 1 and 2. Sticking to the same formula over and over again leads to horrible stagnation of ideas.

And just because we all saw Samus as generic mindless ass kicker X359 because the creator failed his first couple outings of proving to us differently, should he then be forced to change his ideals to our whim rather than sticking to his own vision? Can we really only accept a series as long as nothing ever changes, only gets more "refined?" Eventually you end up with something bland, emotionless, and you are no longer making games for art or entertainment - you are making them for money. Because all the passion and joy is lost.

I personally am glad this game happened. I hope the trend continues, and I hope that the marriage of plot and gameplay gets refined, and we can move down from being melodramatic and focus in on the important parts.

Oh, and regarding the Ridley scene. Ridley was never an insect. He brought her to the brink of death EVERY time (unless you are uber leet, but work with me here.) If I killed your family in front of you, then threatened to kill you, and no amount of gas, bullets, melting, explosions, dismemberment, acid, atomization, or whatever gruesome death you could think of stopped me from trying to kill you too, do you think that would be cool? You'd be okay to just say "Yup, I'll just squash you." Oh wait, YOU'VE DONE THAT 5 OTHER TIMES!!! Or however many ridley deaths there have been. If the one thing that haunts your nightmares just does NOT stay down don't you think that having a freezeup moment would be appropriate?

Add onto the fact that you are a nigh-invicible badass that destroys ordinary monsters during a liesurely stroll, who sees a near-useless survival stun gun as the ticket out of a completely hostile and hopeless situation. If you have the power to destroy planets and end civilizations, don't you think that having one goddamn dragon lizard never stop coming back to kill you no matter what you do would fuck you up hardcore?

The only person who would be able to handle that kind of stress without showing any weakness is a psychopath - aka someone without emotion. And that is a horrible protagonist.

Yeah, she has a moment of weakness due to that, but she gets over it and kicks ass! She doesn't freeze up and need someone to rescue her and make the monsters go away while she cries. She bucks up, gets over her fear, and does what has to be done. That's real courage and awesomess right there.

[Bleck]

You're missing an even bigger point here.

They just DIDN'T have any character development in the previous games

no actually that's my point entirely

picture this

super metroid

you walk into the room

the game displays a still image of ridley appearing

followed by a still image of samus' visor

another still image of her eyes

still image of samus as a child, ridley standing over her threateningly

still image of samus' angry eyes

still image of battle ready samus

and then you fight ridley

not only was that FULLY POSSIBLE on the SNES, it would have portrayed THE EXACT SAME THING as the stupid cutscenes in Other M and in a much less intrusive, irritating manner

my argument is that yes, there was little previous character in the previous games - and looking back, if that is always what he's wanted to do, there is little to no excuse to not have done it back then

[Rozovian]

The psychological progression of the story shows Samus as suffering some kind of bipolar disorder where she sometimes is fully calm and collected in the face of danger, at other times the slightest event upsets her. Sure, you can argue that this is because of her isolation and non-human upbringing, but imo it would all have manifested before, either in ZM or the Prime games. Hinted at or implied, maybe, it's still a huge step from that to overstating her bouncing between sociopath and feeble, emotionally handicapped to this extent.

An arbitrarily added overstated disproportionately emotional superfluous story inconsistent with the previous games. Better not anything like that in the next game, cuz when it sells this well, there's gonna be a next game fairly soon.

[Master_Yoshi]

no actually that's my point entirely

picture this

super metroid

you walk into the room

the game displays a still image of ridley appearing

followed by a still image of samus' visor

another still image of her eyes

still image of samus as a child, ridley standing over her threateningly

still image of samus' angry eyes

still image of battle ready samus

and then you fight ridley

not only was that FULLY POSSIBLE on the SNES, it would have portrayed THE EXACT SAME THING as the stupid cutscenes in Other M and in a much less intrusive, irritating manner

my argument is that yes, there was little previous character in the previous games - and looking back, if that is always what he's wanted to do, there is little to no excuse to not have done it back then

So... what's your endgame here, then? That because they didn't have it before and they should have but had no excuse, that it has no place now? Or maybe you'd have preferred other M to have a ret-conning flashback that puts in that scene in super metroid?

[Overflow]

Oh, and regarding the Ridley scene. Ridley was never an insect. He brought her to the brink of death EVERY time (unless you are uber leet, but work with me here.) If I killed your family in front of you, then threatened to kill you, and no amount of gas, bullets, melting, explosions, dismemberment, acid, atomization, or whatever gruesome death you could think of stopped me from trying to kill you too, do you think that would be cool? You'd be okay to just say "Yup, I'll just squash you." Oh wait, YOU'VE DONE THAT 5 OTHER TIMES!!! Or however many ridley deaths there have been. If the one thing that haunts your nightmares just does NOT stay down don't you think that having a freezeup moment would be appropriate?

Add onto the fact that you are a nigh-invicible badass that destroys ordinary monsters during a liesurely stroll, who sees a near-useless survival stun gun as the ticket out of a completely hostile and hopeless situation. If you have the power to destroy planets and end civilizations, don't you think that having one goddamn dragon lizard never stop coming back to kill you no matter what you do would fuck you up hardcore?

The only person who would be able to handle that kind of stress without showing any weakness is a psychopath - aka someone without emotion. And that is a horrible protagonist.

Yeah, she has a moment of weakness due to that, but she gets over it and kicks ass! She doesn't freeze up and need someone to rescue her and make the monsters go away while she cries. She bucks up, gets over her fear, and does what has to be done. That's real courage and awesomess right there.

THIS.

From now on, I will repost this whenever the point is brought up again.

The rest of the post is awesome too, but this part really takes the cake.

[Brushfire]

I got something we can all agree on.

Samus, no matter how terrible fleshed out of a character she is, she is still a major hottie.

Also Bleck is right, they totally could've done that cutscene on the SNES, and this thread would be a happier place.

TO THE BLECK BRAND TIME MACHINE!!!

[Bleck]

So... what's your endgame here, then? That because they didn't have it before and they should have but had no excuse, that it has no place now?

Yes! If they had done the character development when they did Super Metroid, it would have been fine, because Samus had no characterization in the first two titles.

But then we had Metroid Fusion, and all of the Primes, and various comics, and through all of those titles Samus' personality was shaped into a finalized image in the minds of all Metroid fans. You can't justify taking twenty years to actually define somethi-

No, I've got it. You know what this is like? It's George Lucas. It doesn't matter how long he had the stories stewing in his head - it doesn't make any of the prequel movies worth watching more than once. It doesn't make the dialogue any better, it doesn't make the characterization any better and it doesn't make the plot make any more sense.

Other M, luckily, has a solid game behind all of the cutscenes. But for the most part, this cutscene bullshit is inexcusable to me. You not only take a shit on what all of your fans believe, but do it in a really, really poor and annoying way? It's astonishing that there are people defending this kind of bullshit.

[Master_Yoshi]

Yes! If they had done the character development when they did Super Metroid, it would have been fine, because Samus had no characterization in the first two titles.

But then we had Metroid Fusion, and all of the Primes, and various comics, and through all of those titles Samus' personality was shaped into a finalized image in the minds of all Metroid fans. You can't justify taking twenty years to actually define somethi-

No, I've got it. You know what this is like? It's George Lucas. It doesn't matter how long he had the stories stewing in his head - it doesn't make any of the prequel movies worth watching more than once. It doesn't make the dialogue any better, it doesn't make the characterization any better and it doesn't make the plot make any more sense.

Other M, luckily, has a solid game behind all of the cutscenes. But for the most part, this cutscene bullshit is inexcusable to me. You not only take a shit on what all of your fans believe, but do it in a really, really poor and annoying way? It's astonishing that there are people defending this kind of bullshit.

I disagree with you on two points, but at least we can agree on gameplay!

Honestly, I can't see you budging your opinion on the character development aspect. Moving someone from a long-standing non-character to being a fully three dimensional and fully fledged character is bound to be a rough transition, even for the best of authors and... blah. I know what's really at play here.

Samus Aran is one of the video game heroines that is hardest to find hentai of. Because guys respect her, because she's one of them, or so they think. Raised on the 80s and 90s of having no emotion = awesome and badass, a la terminator and Rambo, only showing the faintest signs of budging when a child or something else helpless comes into play, there's a lot going on there I think. Most people have this image of her and preconceived notions of what it takes to be cool.

Sadly, a lack of emotion isn't cool. It's boring, it's stupid, and it's incredibly scary. Ask anyone that has been through real emotional trauma and hardship - the easier thing to do is switch off completely, it takes real courage to deal with that emotion, take the hits, the freezeups, and the emotional beatings, and continue to trek on.

To me, having her go into a full fledged panic attack and then come out of it rather than go fetal, that endears me to her even more. As someone that's had panic attacks, I know what that's like. Maybe it's something people on the outside can't understand?

And regarding the George Lucas thing.... wow.... That's insulting. To insinuate that I might enjoy the prequel trilogies outside of the spectacle that is episode 3 hurts... I'm just going to leave it at "not the same situation, at all."

*Edit* And YES YOU CAN justify taking 20 years to define something. It's the success of the original metroid and metroid 2, and listening to the fans and feedback and hearing that they want to be a space bounty hunter (wtf is that, even? Has she ever actually gotten a bounty? Does she bring in criminals? Who pays her?) They wanted another game that was built entirely around gameplay and was a throwback to the NES days. And they got it. Super metroid was awesome, but I refuse to go over to the opinion that not having story and characterization injected there makes it "too late" for the series to have them at all. That's a complete pile of bullshit. I can't think of any parallels to that situation because long standing things ALWAYS have drastic changes from beginning to end.

[Bleck]

Most people have this image of her and preconceived notions of what it takes to be cool.

Sadly, a lack of emotion isn't cool. It's boring, it's stupid, and it's incredibly scary.

I'm not talking a lack of emotion here - I'm saying it's entirely possible to show development and feeling without a god damn monologue. Anyone who plays video games or reads comic books or watches movies should be able to understand that what makes all three pieces of media great is the ability to tell a story and develop a character without having to painstakingly walk through their tedious explanation.

"You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!" - Professor Farnsworth

My point here isn't that I don't think Samus should show any character development (although I do think that the particular chain of development that she goes on now is nonsensical) - it's that the method in which they've chosen to portray this development is hamfisted and painful.

Do you think that the way I described how it was possible in Super Metroid had any sort of flaw? It would have taken a total of fifteen seconds at most, instead of a two minute cutscene, and it would have been a better way of pulling it off... and it would have actually made sense, chronologically.

There's just no reason at all for long, long cutscenes in a Metroid game, especially if they're going to be awfully written and nonsensical.

edit:

They wanted another game that was built entirely around gameplay and was a throwback to the NES days. And they got it.

when there is a total of two hours of cutscenes in a video game that takes eight hours to beat, it is really, really dumb to say that it's built entirely around gameplay

[Master_Yoshi]

I'm not talking a lack of emotion here - I'm saying it's entirely possible to show development and feeling without a god damn monologue. Anyone who plays video games or reads comic books or watches movies should be able to understand that what makes all three pieces of media great is the ability to tell a story and develop a character without having to painstakingly walk through their tedious explanation.

"You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!" - Professor Farnsworth

My point here isn't that I don't think Samus should show any character development (although I do think that the particular chain of development that she goes on now is nonsensical) - it's that the method in which they've chosen to portray this development is hamfisted and painful.

Do you think that the way I described how it was possible in Super Metroid had any sort of flaw? It would have taken a total of fifteen seconds at most, instead of a two minute cutscene, and it would have been a better way of pulling it off... and it would have actually made sense, chronologically.

There's just no reason at all for long, long cutscenes in a Metroid game, especially if they're going to be awfully written and nonsensical.

edit:

when there is a total of two hours of cutscenes in a video game that takes eight hours to beat, it is really, really dumb to say that it's built entirely around gameplay

Nah, when you put it that way you come off as totally reasonable.

And yeah, monologues suck. It's the one thing I really hate in metroid fusion. Granted, I'm fine with her voice actress, as even her Japanese counterpart sounded that way.

And the fact cutscenes are unskippable is always a problem. So yes, it could have been handled better, but I never really meant to argue that point. I think the transition from pure gameplay to a blend of gameplay and story is necessary, and it's bound to be painful. I support it because I want the formula to be revisited, refined, hashed and rehashed. It's not perfect now, and things like being unskippable in your cutscenes is a big deal, but damnit! It's a lot closer to be a whole, enjoyable experience that is more than the mindlessness of the classic mega man era, I can't help but see through those flaws.

And my comment on the throwback was towards Super Metroid, not other M.

So yeah, to sum up. I agree that the implimentation here, from a technical standpoint, was bad. But the story, the characterization, all of that I am cool with. They could have done a better job telling the story, but I see nothing wrong with the story itself.

It's sort of like Harry Potter. I like the story in it, the world is colourful and fun, incredibly interesting, all of that is fantastic. Could it have been told better? Of course! Does that really detract from it in the grand scheme, and was I opposed to book 7? Of course not!

[Ray Falling]

Are people still going on about how Samus was totally ruined for them?

The one thing I can't stand is how people keep saying "she was a badass". What does that even mean? A videogame character is only as "badass" as you manage to play through a game.

You can't say "well, she killed this and blew up that so she shouldn't have this kind of emotion" because she didn't. YOU DID! You, the player.

If you're a bad player, your so called "badass" character gets their ass handed to them by even the simplest trap or enemy. If you die too many times and quit playing the game out of frustration, Samus effectively never got anything done.

Remember, you're in control of the character, but you're not going through the physical or emotional pain of your on-screen counter part: you're on your luxurious couch or whatever. You're not the one nearly dying dozens of times, or actually dying for that matter. You're not the one with the murdered family.

It's a miracle Samus can get anything done really. With all that she's been through. Which is exactly the point where reality crosses into fiction.

The thing with Metroid (and many games and movies really) is, it's crossed so far into the territory of fiction that any sense of reality (in terms of human emotion) just doesn't work anymore, it just doesn't seem real anymore.

I still personally think the story and the way they made Samus' character is good. If only minorly overdone in some parts. MINORLY.

That said, there is that cognitive dissonance, going from inside Samus' mind, back to my mind as a player and just continue blasting away at stuff with no fear, from the comfort of my couch.

Now, a game would be really good if your character's emotion was your emotion and if that would actually affect gameplay. (I'm too tired to properly justify that statement with an example to pre-empt your misunderstanding of it).

[EC2151]

These are all good posts, and I wish I had something to add right now, but since i'm tired, really tired, I'll say this:

on any playthrough after your first, you can skip cutscenes.

And like magic, this game gets so much better.

[Brushfire]

So is there an unlockable cutscene where Samus is taking a bath nude, or cooking nude, or mowing the lawn nude, or some other activity that would be enhanced by her being nude?

[Mirby]

Metroid: Xtreme Beach Volleyball

[Bleck]

or some other activity that would be enhanced by her being nude?

ie any/all activities

[Toadofsky]

Heaven forbid anyone sticking to their guns and following through with their own creative vision.

And screwing up a character in the process? Yeah.

I don't necessarily have that much of a problem with creativity, or peoples creative vision. But all I see with this Sakamoto guy is egotism, and if this game flops and any other metroid games, and Nintendo STILL let's this guy handle them, they're stupid.

And what Bleck said is right, they could have had cutscenes in previous games, they just didn't do it then, there was no hardware limit on small cutscenes, Ninja Gaiden on NES anyone?

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

nobody in their right mind is going to sit there and tell me that snes games don't have the capacity to deliver a good story

OK, so if Super Metroid had this "epic" narrative, could you direct me to it? SNES games did have the capacity to tell an amazing story(FFVI and Chrono Trigger for example), but Super Metroid was hardly one of them. Metroid games have always won their fans over by solid gameplay, which they have in droves. However compelling dramas they ain't.

Metroid was essentially "Here's a planet with shit on it, go blow said shit up. If you do it fast enough, you get to see a chick in a bikini at the end." The fact that you all were easy to please pre-pubescent larva back then is how anything in the 16-bit era could have a "good story"

Next thing you'll be telling me is how Super Mario Bros. 3 is the Schindler's List of 8-bit gaming, or that Mario's constant pursuing of the princess is actually a metaphor for heroine use among the disenfranchised teens of America.

(Incidentally I don't understand why everyone shits on Metroid 2)

And screwing up a character in the process? Yeah.

Subjective.

[Bleck]

nobody in their right mind is going to sit there and tell me that snes games don't have the capacity to deliver a good story

OK, so if Super Metroid had this "epic" narrative, could you direct me to it?

...

super metroid could have had good story elements, but didn't

But can you prove that Super Metroid had good story elements?

how can you even argue about good story when you can't even read

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I wasn't speaking directly to your previous point as much as I was to the idea that people think that Super Metroid actually had some semblance of a plot. Maybe taking out some of the 'you's would've helped.