I have a question for you as I was just told my musical style was "too Japanese."

[Strike911]

Okay... I need some answers from you music folks. I'm working on some audio for a little game. I made some jazzy, peppy music for it. Something fun with saxophones, bass guitars, a little brass here and there. So here's what happens: from multiple people I've been told that the few tracks I've produced "sound Japanese." I quote this because multiple people have said this. Now this confused me because I'm not trying to produce anything with traditional Japanese, ethnic inspired instruments or anything... in fact, it's almost entirely a jazzy mix of tunes with a few electronic pieces tossed in for good measure. I can understand that thematic and stylistic differences in music composition occur based on location, but it's to the point that I don't want to detract from the game because the music feels out of place. So I'm in the middle of trying to experiment with how exactly I can go about "westernizing" the music, or in the very least, creating something that doesn't blatantly stick out like a sore thumb.

And again, part of me says F this.

But the question in my mind remains, what exactly does "your music sounds too Japanese" mean?! I can't figure it out... much less how to fix ... it. (?) If it even needs to be fixed. I even came to point of saying "Look, I'm not being defensive, I appreciate criticism... BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!?" And they can never answer me. It's like this criticism, or rather observation, that I can't necessarily prove nor disprove.

So here's my question: what makes a piece of music, without ethnic instruments, sound either Eastern or Western? How are we capable of saying "Oh this sounds like its from a JRPG" or "Oh this sounds like a western game's music?" What are the constants and variables of these kinds of music that allow us to make this distinction? Is there a distinction? There must be. And are these distinctions even remotely valid or is it just a perception thing based on media experiences we've internalized to represent "eastern" or "western" styles? I know styles exist, but what exactly are they...?

I hope I'm not over analyzing this. We're trying to develop this little game, and I want to make sure everything fits like it should. Again, part of me is like, "MEH, I'll produce what I think fits" but there has been such an overwhelming number of people that say "this sounds Japanese" that its making me wonder if I should be trying to figure out how to be more "western" with the music.

For giggles, here's a link to a Youtube vid with a few songs I produced, if you're so compelled you can scroll through it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f18nRkXzyxI

Thanks.

[Tensei]

There's an (arguably inaccurate) generalization that modern Asian, and in particular Japanese music (be it pop or rock or whatever), places a greater emphasis on melody than lyrical content when compared to Western music.

Generally, anything with a catchier melody than 'usual' might be perceived as Japanese.

Now in VGM, I think this stereotype kind of prevails: if you compare JRPGs against Western RPGs, the Western RPG will often have a big orchestral soundtrack that places more emphasis on moods, with maybe one clear leitmotif (Elder Scrolls theme anyone?) against a much more varied (depending on the setting) selection of music you tend to find in JRPGs, which tend to have tons of memorable tracks, if only for the main melody.

Finally, I notice there's often a certain tendency in Japanese music that I call 'maximalism'. I.e. they start with a rock track, then they might add some synths, and hey, why not an entire orchestra, whereas Western music will often stick to one genre (though there are fortunately tons of exceptions).

Now I think as for your music, I think the idea that it's 'too Japanese' is caused by the fact that it's both hard to categorize within a single genre, but it also places a great emphasis on melody. If the music were to be more 'Western', it'd probably be simpler and more atmospheric.

Either way, I think the complaint is rather silly.

[LuketheXjesse]

If something "Too Japanese" focuses more on the melody and is diverse, I would honestly take it as a compliment.

[Fratto]

A few instruments have sort of an Asian airy feel, but there's really nothing here that sounds blatantly Japanese.

The complaint is silly.

To prove a point in how silly it is, I'm going to actually say that I agree with Luke...

[MkVaff]

Personally, I've generally preferred Japanese game music to American or European. I think it's a good thing. Saying music is too Japanese is actually a pretty ridiculous comment in itself - unless the project was supposed to go in a different direction and didn't fit with your style. Dismissing something as too Japanese is pretty close minded and, well, pretty much useless.

If I heard your music and I thought it sounded Japanese I would've had the common sense to think that you wanted that way. If I heard one of Zircon's songs with crazy beats and synths and told him "dude it sounds too electronic" I think that would be pretty silly on my part...

[Meteo Xavier]

To me, Japanese music sounds like overly epic, melodic content built over sequenced drums and background with progressive rock song structures. It lacks subtlety in emotional content, prefering to blare out sad or angry or powerful by making you focus on one memorable melody or sound over any combination of I, IV, V and VI Minor chords with occasional breaks into a melodic chord just as Em, C, D, B and then having Esus4 and then E to close off a music phrase.

Western music sticks to making music that is strictly background and atmosphere and only exists to maybe give an atmosphere some subtlety and you wouldn't be able to remember a specific tune to save your life. They are usually Danny Elfman or John Williams-wannabe scores and are overly orchestral with extreme focus to make it sound like real orchestras are playing which I disagree with because its too much money spent on production instead of creativity which is what sells records.

Modern Japanese music rules. Hands down.

[Bleck]

not metal enough

[cobaltstarfire]

I think what they're picking out as sounding "Japanese" might be the kind of chords/key you use, I mean lookit Okami, sure a lot of it's music is full of ethnic instruments, but some of the tracks have very few, are mostly orchestral, but still has a Japanese feel. I don't think the stuff you posted has a Japanese feel, but it does sound like something that would have come out of Japan, just on instrument choice, and also the way they are (processed? I'm not sure of the word to use here, cause I'm really only knowledgeable in working with a real band/orchestra).

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing either just like others have said lol. It doesn't seem to "feel" Japanese to me so it doesn't seem like it would upset the mood of the game any as you are worried.

[MkVaff]

To me, Japanese music sounds like overly epic, melodic content built over sequenced drums and background with progressive rock song structures. It lacks subtlety in emotional content, prefering to blare out sad or angry or powerful by making you focus on one memorable melody or sound over any combination of I, IV, V and VI Minor chords with occasional breaks into a melodic chord just as Em, C, D, B and then having Esus4 and then E to close off a music phrase.

Western music sticks to making music that is strictly background and atmosphere and only exists to maybe give an atmosphere some subtlety and you wouldn't be able to remember a specific tune to save your life. They are usually Danny Elfman or John Williams-wannabe scores and are overly orchestral with extreme focus to make it sound like real orchestras are playing which I disagree with because its too much money spent on production instead of creativity which is what sells records.

Modern Japanese music rules. Hands down.

You saying that Elfman and Williams (as examples of Western composers) are subtle on melody? Because damn I can remember sooo many Elfman and Williams melodies. Williams in particular has a career full of memorable themes...

[Guy In Rubber Suit]

I really don't hear anything Japanese about the music here. There are a few scales that create an Eastern feel to them but here I really don't hear it. It sounds like 16-bit music to me and really Eastern and Western composers focused on melody at the time. I guess the only thing that can really be 'Japanese' are the use of xylophones in some of the tunes. I know some JRPGs abuse that instrument or something similar.

[Meteo Xavier]

You saying that Elfman and Williams (as examples of Western composers) are subtle on melody? Because damn I can remember sooo many Elfman and Williams melodies. Williams in particular has a career full of memorable themes...

No, I'm saying Western composers are largely uncreative and bland going for the "John Williams sound" instead of what truly endears to John Williams: the melodies.

Editorial: And I hate Danny Elfman. You hear one bells-and-choir song in a chromatic scale, you've heard most of his resume.

[Xelebes]

Rhythm, you're forgetting rhythm.

Western music, especially since the dawn of the Impressionist and Modernist Era has seen a greater focus on rhythm and enunciation than melody. Japanese music generally lacks enunciation and rhythm, thus sounding a bit more like Romantic Era music.

[Meteo Xavier]

Rhythm, you're forgetting rhythm.

Western music, especially since the dawn of the Impressionist and Modernist Era has seen a greater focus on rhythm and enunciation than melody. Japanese music generally lacks enunciation and rhythm, thus sounding a bit more like Romantic Era music.

That is traditional Japanese music. We're largely talking about modern Japanese music.

[MkVaff]

....

Editorial: And I hate Danny Elfman. You hear one bells-and-choir song in a chromatic scale, you've heard most of his resume.

You may be true about his limited scope compared to some people, but I can give Danny a pass though because though he might not venture out of his comfort zone much, he kicked ass in the Nightmare Before Christmas and Beetlejuice soundtracks. =)

[Bleck]

is this going to turn into another thread where meteo xavier wanks off about japan endlessly

[Gollgagh]

could be

[ambinate]

Editorial: And I hate Danny Elfman. You hear one bells-and-choir song in a chromatic scale, you've heard most of his resume.

I've gotta disagree with this one. Maybe the work of his that I've heard is the exception, but I think his scores for Big Fish, Good Will Hunting, and a bunch of others are all great examples of modern film music done right, and I wouldn't put any of them in the category you mentioned.

I also think that, in some cases, it's tough to compare western game music composers and Japanese game music composers, mostly because gameplay has to be taken into account. I think the type of music you hear in JRPGs that focuses on memorable melodies/structures would have a difficult time fitting in western RPGs like the Elder Scrolls games, the Knights of the Old Republic games, the Baldur's Gate series, etc. Western RPGs, I think, tend to have bigger, more wide open areas with less zoning/loading between each area, no random battles, and all other types of gameplay choices that make having a score with really tuneful pieces less sensible. Out of context, it might be pretty boring to listen to on its own, but I don't think that necessarily makes it shittier than Japanese game music. It's just a different approach to gamemaking, so the music has to be different, as a result.

[Sengin]

I've actually been quite disappointed in the soundtracks of games I have played somewhat recently (note that I am not saying all games that have come out recently, just that I haven't played any that has surprised me). I miss the memorable music from games... from the recent games, I remember not a single track whereas old games that I haven't played in years I can recall. I have found that with the increase use of the orchestra, most games are starting to not only sound the same, but also really boring and completely forgettable (probably something to do with "hey, he used an orchestra - I can do that too!"). The only exception I've found is (gasp!) Sonic Unleashed, which had some interesting tracks (though some forgettable as well). It still pales in comparison to say, Sonic 3&K or Sonic 2, but I definitely thought it was better than other modern games. Hell, I remember ONE track from FFXII. I remember too many to count from FFVI and FFVII.

I'm not saying the orchestra can't be memorable or exciting, but from what I've played, composers need to start stepping it up. Or just focusing on other instruments (yes, we get it, the orchestra has brass in it) and melodies to create interesting tracks instead of just background sound.

[MkVaff]

I've actually been quite disappointed in the soundtracks of games I have played somewhat recently (note that I am not saying all games that have come out recently, just that I haven't played any that has surprised me). I miss the memorable music from games... from the recent games, I remember not a single track whereas old games that I haven't played in years I can recall. I have found that with the increase use of the orchestra, most games are starting to not only sound the same, but also really boring and completely forgettable (probably something to do with "hey, he used an orchestra - I can do that too!"). The only exception I've found is (gasp!) Sonic Unleashed, which had some interesting tracks (though some forgettable as well). It still pales in comparison to say, Sonic 3&K or Sonic 2, but I definitely thought it was better than other modern games. Hell, I remember ONE track from FFXII. I remember too many to count from FFVI and FFVII.

I'm not saying the orchestra can't be memorable or exciting, but from what I've played, composers need to start stepping it up. Or just focusing on other instruments (yes, we get it, the orchestra has brass in it) and melodies to create interesting tracks instead of just background sound.

Yeah I've noticed this trend for awhile now, very few new game soundtracks stand out to me these days. Even though the vast majority of them are done well, very few are memorable - some more recent exceptions being the Katamari series and the oh so awesome Megaman 9 soundtrack.

[lazygecko]

I don't think that youtube sampler strikes me as particularly Japanese. In fact, it doesn't sound all that different from what you'd usually hear from western game music and TV productions pre-2000. Some of them would fit right at home in a Sierra adventure game.

[Avatar of Justice]

I've actually been quite disappointed in the soundtracks of games I have played somewhat recently (note that I am not saying all games that have come out recently, just that I haven't played any that has surprised me). I miss the memorable music from games... from the recent games, I remember not a single track whereas old games that I haven't played in years I can recall. I have found that with the increase use of the orchestra, most games are starting to not only sound the same, but also really boring and completely forgettable (probably something to do with "hey, he used an orchestra - I can do that too!"). The only exception I've found is (gasp!) Sonic Unleashed, which had some interesting tracks (though some forgettable as well). It still pales in comparison to say, Sonic 3&K or Sonic 2, but I definitely thought it was better than other modern games. Hell, I remember ONE track from FFXII. I remember too many to count from FFVI and FFVII.

I'm not saying the orchestra can't be memorable or exciting, but from what I've played, composers need to start stepping it up. Or just focusing on other instruments (yes, we get it, the orchestra has brass in it) and melodies to create interesting tracks instead of just background sound.

Yeah I was driving back home on a trip and put on the Skies of Arcadia OST. I really appreciate how the Skies OST manages to have some orchestrated stuff going on, yet mix it with synth to remind me that I'm playing a video game. These all orchestral soundtracks start to run together in my head. I guess if I were a younger gamer not raised on chiptunes, synthiness wouldn't be associated with games in my head and it wouldn't matter as much. I mean I like FF12's OST (I am a fan of Hitoshi Sakimoto in general and orchestral is his style), but the orchestration does tend to make things run together a bit for me.

[cobaltstarfire]

That can be applied to any form of music, it's not really fair to say that it's happening because it happens to be orchestral.

I'm probably just biased though, orchestral/symphonic music doesn't tend to run together for me unless it's pretty crappy and undistinguished in the first place. Then again I can pick out most music I'm familiar with based on just a few bars, even if it's just variations on a theme (such as is done in video game music). So I dunno maybe I just focus a lot more on the music or something as it's playing? *shrug*

[DrumUltimA]

I'm listening to your youtube post, the only really "japanese" sounding thing I hear is the third track, and that's only because it sounds like yasunori mitsuda composed it lol. I generally think that harmonically speaking, anything based around a minor i-VI-VII-i progression has been stereotyped as a japanese sound... which is stupid because I absolutely love that. Oh, fifth song in has a japanese sound to it, i guess. But it's not even that bad! I guess I can hear what they're talking about, but for that to be a COMPLAINT is silly, I think. I mean, it's clear that you've been heavily influenced by, well, japanese video game composers. But, who on this site hasn't? Who in the industry (other than howard drossin...) hasn't? If you really wanna chance your style for this silly reason, just imagine everything you ever liked about yasunori mitsuda or nobou uematsu and try to remove that from the element.

Sometimes I think that the idea of something sounding too japanese is them saying "hey, this music is too good, could you dumb it down a little? Take out some of the really nice sounding elements and replace it with more generic sounds?"

[Meteo Xavier]

I don't think that youtube sampler strikes me as particularly Japanese. In fact, it doesn't sound all that different from what you'd usually hear from western game music and TV productions pre-2000. Some of them would fit right at home in a Sierra adventure game.

Well it goes without saying that any ideas and stereotypes/archetypes present should not be taken literally. Battletoads and Double Dragon I could swear was done by a Yuzo Koshiro soundalike, but guess what, NO!

Someone should totally start up a B/DD project album. >

[abg]

Considering most of the most important video games (and video game soundtracks) are Japanese, I'd take that as a compliment

I gave the Hour Zero teaser a listen and I have to agree, it sounds somewhat Japanese. So, I looked around on youtube and in my personal music collection for music from western games, and to my surprise most of them have that Japanese sound too! The only soundtracks that stand out as being obviously North American are rock oriented ones (Command & Conquer for example, or liscensed soundtracks), NARPGs with atmospheric soundtracks (Diablo, Oblivion) and games with super cinematic music (Prey, Killzone, etc).

So unless you wanna make some cinematic, atmospheric rock music I think you're going to be stuck being labelled as sounding Japanese!