OCRA-0014 - Final Fantasy IV: Echoes of Betrayal, Light of Redemption

[Phantosanucca]

Sorry - don't usually address criticism but as far as source - i painstakingly went through each section following the source extremely close

The problem that comes off is some of the elements are lost with mixing the vocals so up front. But the harmony is near verbatim minus the chant which is the same progression from the another moon track before it.

There is source scattered through every section. The bassline is near verbatim from the original. The hooks are all over the place (stacked 4ths). The verse has in two different variations that come across more apparent in the serialist version. But besides the chorus, yes - the vox melody isn't really source at all.

Go through the serialist version without the vox and tell me you still can't hear it.

I have.

I've TRIED. I'll believe you if you say the song is in there, somewhere, but not if you say it's actually audible.

[Monobrow]

Jay, I kinda agree with him to an extent. I can appreciate most of the songs from a musical kind of standpoint easily, however I can get that from a layman's standpoint, a lot of the songs deviate in ways that someone who is deeply nostalgic about the music might not agree with.

For example, I love your might of baron song, especially when that badass geetar comes in, but I do think that towards the end it meanders in ways that people who love FFIV might not appreciate as much as anyone else listening to the songs without much FFIV OBSESSION BACKGROUNDS! And once again, most people will probably go through these songs a few times before really paying attention to what is happening behind the scenes... They look for familiarity first and foremost.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I can see why anyone would be a little disappointed, especially at first, considering the perspectives where they are coming from. The FFVII project kind of felt the same way to me as well actually.

One song that irks me from this perspective is actually Blind's Golbez song, believe it or not, no offense! I don't have anything bad to say about the production, or the details and cool beatz and arps and synths etc. about the song itself, EXCEPT THAT he changed the original chord progression in a way that the song loses its badass feel.

Golbez is this badass organ guy, the minor chord progression was just perfect... And Blind changed it up, and I am not exactly sure why. That, I think, would be a good example of a great remix (which IMO could be taken as an original without the Golbez FFIV stamp to the average listener) deviating from the source in such an important way enough to maybe disappoint an avid fan of FFIV.

A LOT OF SONGS make up for this though, and are great so this is really me just trying to get to the bottom of why anyone would feel this way. In other words, I can understand the complaints. However guys, as far as complaining goes, what I find is best to do is just appreciate what you do like, because honestly, nothing is going to change what you don't, as far as these remixes go :J... And there is plenty out there to like!

[zircon]

Huh? The progression in bLiNd's Golbez mix is the same as the original. They're both minor. The original is Em -> F# maj/E -> Em -> F# maj/E -> Em -> F#maj -> Gmaj, etc. Pretty much just those three chords over and over. bLiNd's is identical, starting at 0:32 in his mix. Literally.. same chords, same voicing. Later in the song, ie. 0:45, he does change up the bassline, but the chords are still virtually the same.

[Phantosanucca]

Jay, I kinda agree with him to an extent. I can appreciate most of the songs from a musical kind of standpoint easily, however I can get that from a layman's standpoint, a lot of the songs deviate in ways that someone who is deeply nostalgic about the music might not agree with.

For example, I love your might of baron song, especially when that badass geetar comes in, but I do think that towards the end it meanders in ways that people who love FFIV might not appreciate as much as anyone else listening to the songs without much FFIV OBSESSION BACKGROUNDS! And once again, most people will probably go through these songs a few times before really paying attention to what is happening behind the scenes... They look for familiarity first and foremost.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but I can see why anyone would be a little disappointed, especially at first, considering the perspectives where they are coming from. The FFVII project kind of felt the same way to me as well actually.

One song that irks me from this perspective is actually Blind's Golbez song, believe it or not, no offense! I don't have anything bad to say about the production, or the details and cool beatz and arps and synths etc. about the song itself, EXCEPT THAT he changed the original chord progression in a way that the song loses its badass feel.

Golbez is this badass organ guy, the minor chord progression was just perfect... And Blind changed it up, and I am not exactly sure why. That, I think, would be a good example of a great remix (which IMO could be taken as an original without the Golbez FFIV stamp to the average listener) deviating from the source in such an important way enough to maybe disappoint an avid fan of FFIV.

A LOT OF SONGS make up for this though, and are great so this is really me just trying to get to the bottom of why anyone would feel this way. In other words, I can understand the complaints. However guys, as far as complaining goes, what I find is best to do is just appreciate what you do like, because honestly, nothing is going to change what you don't, as far as these remixes go :J... And there is plenty out there to like!

That's one way of looking at it, although I welcome a remixer putting his or her own personal spin on a composition. The issue here is that the original stuff seems to stretch out until it takes up more than half of the song, dwarfing the source. Instead of finding the proper balance.

As for the Zeromus track, I really like what they wanted to do. I believe my disappointment isn't the result of a lack of trying on their parts, but insufficient means of getting their idea across. It doesn't really work within their range of talents. It is too grand a concept. For what they were attempting, they would need an orchestra and trained opera singers or something. Sometimes there's only so much a handful of people can or should do.

[LuketheXjesse]

That's one way of looking at it, although I welcome a remixer putting his or her own personal spin on a composition. The issue here is that the original stuff seems to stretch out until it takes up more than half of the song, dwarfing the source. Instead of finding the proper balance.

As for the Zeromus track, I really like what they wanted to do. I believe my disappointment isn't the result of a lack of trying on their parts, but insufficient means of getting their idea across. It doesn't really work within their range of talents. It is too grand a concept. For what they were attempting, they would need an orchestra and trained opera singers or something. Sometimes there's only so much a handful of people can or should do.

While I thought the female vocals could have been a bit better, I think the team did just fine in terms of trying to achieve an epic finale; an entire orchestra can easily be created artificially with the right samples and mixing, and being a trained singer doesn't mean squat if you're not passionate or you aren't born with a good vocal tone. Now personally I didn't like the Zeromous track (or maybe I haven't listened to it enough) but there's no denying the creativity AND the work involved here, so surely you can, at the very least, appreciate that aspect of the song. If not, I'd enjoy seeing you try to make a better remix.

As for being upset with the remix not having enough of the original source, just try to look at it from a more musical perspective than a nostalgic one. I'll readily admit enjoying conservative remixes more than liberal ones (hence why I enjoy making Mega Man METAL RAWR), but once you give a liberal mix enough of a chance, and abandon the perspective of listening to the song for pure nostalgia, you could find a really great piece of work. I will say, however, than I don't enjoy an energetic song being turned to something ambient, or vice versa, unless the melody REALLY lends itself to making a good transition for such.

Just chill, bro. Appreciate it for what it is: Music.

[bLiNd]

Huh? The progression in bLiNd's Golbez mix is the same as the original. They're both minor. The original is Em -> F# maj/E -> Em -> F# maj/E -> Em -> F#maj -> Gmaj, etc. Pretty much just those three chords over and over. bLiNd's is identical, starting at 0:32 in his mix. Literally.. same chords, same voicing. Later in the song, ie. 0:45, he does change up the bassline, but the chords are still virtually the same.

yessir, i kept it the same until the beat drops. I changed the chord progression at that point by making the bass follow the root of the chord instead of keeping the dissonance that keeps it so evil sounding. Now i understand what monobrow is saying about the nostalgic feel, but the key here is to remix the track and make it your own right? I wanted to change the genre from evil church organ music to like golbez in his disco suit jammin on the dance floor. anyway that was my idea of it. hybound did his take on the alternate motif of golbez which is much more true to the original in that sense so you get the best of both on the album imo. To each his/her own...

[Jenz Drake]

One song that irks me from this perspective is actually Blind's Golbez song, believe it or not, no offense! I don't have anything bad to say about the production, or the details and cool beatz and arps and synths etc. about the song itself, EXCEPT THAT he changed the original chord progression in a way that the song loses its badass feel.

Golbez is this badass organ guy, the minor chord progression was just perfect... And Blind changed it up, and I am not exactly sure why. That, I think, would be a good example of a great remix (which IMO could be taken as an original without the Golbez FFIV stamp to the average listener) deviating from the source in such an important way enough to maybe disappoint an avid fan of FFIV.

I'm trying super hard not to be offended by this - he did an amazing job with that track. So MANY people agree. You have no idea what you're talking about. No disrespect to you, of course. I'm very well-mannered. OCRs-to-be get rejected quite often because they drag the source too long or just too much instead of turning it into their own. This site is called OC ReMix... as in... remixing it to your own flavor of sound and creativity. There is NOTHING wrong with the song. It's a REMIX. If you need or want nostalgia, just listen to the original track in the OSV. I don't know how any other way he could've remixed it. Lol Besides that point as Jordan and I are both electronic lovers to the max...We both know most people would have NEVER thought Goblez could be turned into a good house song. That is enough to call it a great song.

[audio fidelity]

jade - just sticking up here for mono - cause i don't think she meant to say she thought the song was bad at all but that her expectations of where the song could go didn't match with hers

which is the inherent problem for remixing a song and having someone not like it from where they are coming from and how they feel about the source - it's tough right - but i guess hearing something in a new light can be as rewarding as it is frustrating for others

i thought the golbez 90's house version was a cool change-up myself - it still comes off dark but in playful kind of way (my fav of blinds tracks on the album) - another thing that could be said for the golbez motif - is that it's also featured in hy bound and cotmm's tracks - which are two different takes on the same theme - so everyone gets what they want - hopefully :/ hehe

[Megaman1985]

Out of all the remixes on this album, i only kept bLiNd's three mixes.

Bridge to Eternity & Path of Deception(both10/10)... when i listen to these two, i feel like these are the originals.

Golbez 'N Goblins(7/10)... this one not so much as i listened to the others first & thought this would sound more or less the same as those.

[LuketheXjesse]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say that Kidd Cabbage's song is the shit.

/metalbias

EDIT: I guess I'll review some of this sucka while I am here. Note that these are in completely in random order. In fact it's just random songs I felt like listening to that I picked randomly. So ya.

Might of Baron: Great idea with great execution. I just wish the Guitar tone was a little better. Not much else to really critique here, this is pretty awesome.

Full of Courage: Good, but I wish there was more energy here. I guess that what Might of Baron is supposed to be for.

The Flying Machine: Really awesome and packed full of punch and emotion. Really makes me wanna break out the game again. Excellent work, if not just a tad short.

Read the Sine: More of a sound experiment than an actual song. Too quirky for my taste, although it is pretty creative. I just wish there was some sort of climax here instead of a bunch of soundscapes going on. Recommended only for synth junkies.

Emerald Beauty: Really like this one. That lead sound that comes in at :58 confuses me though; what instrument is that? Reminds me a lot of Dali Village from Final Fantasy IX, which is a HUGE compliment, my friend. Saxophone parts are gorgeous, too. Nice work.

RDX Necklace: You really have to approach this one from a certain perspective to truly appreciate it. It's meant to capture the mood of the actual scene where the summoner's village is burned to the ground, and does a remarkable job. It's awesome in a movie soundtrack kind of way. It's a surreal, soundscape type of audio like Read the Sine, but actually relates to what's going on with the actual source. Very cool.

Of Fiend and Man: I remember not liking this one at the listening party, but listening to it now, I actually like it. Like RDX Necklace, you have to approach this one from a movie soundtrack perspective, and I ended up finding this song pretty good in the end. There's some parts that are BEGGING (especially the last minute) for louder, more obvious/metal guitar parts instead of the Orchestral elements hogging all the attention. Still a good remix, though.

I'll review more if I feel like it. I guess these were in order after all..

[Phantosanucca]

If not, I'd enjoy seeing you try to make a better remix.

It is fortunate then, that I don't have to be a great artist to appreciate great art. Or to tell the wheat from the chaff.

Not that I wouldn't try. But hell if I can figure out this FL Studio demo of mine, and other than that it's just midis for me. Being a musician is expensive and confusing. I credit anyone who can wrap their heads around this technology, or an instrument. That doesn't let Genesis of Destruction off the hook, however.

As for being upset with the remix not having enough of the original source, just try to look at it from a more musical perspective than a nostalgic one.

There is nothing wrong with a liberal remix. There is something wrong with a 7 minute long remix where 5 minutes aren't in the same ballpark as the original composition. A professional knows where the line is between a remix and sampling. Many of you are at or near that level of professional quality, which is why this soundtrack is sometimes so baffling.

I'll readily admit enjoying conservative remixes more than liberal ones (hence why I enjoy making Mega Man METAL RAWR), but once you give a liberal mix enough of a chance, and abandon the perspective of listening to the song for pure nostalgia, you could find a really great piece of work. I will say, however, than I don't enjoy an energetic song being turned to something ambient, or vice versa, unless the melody REALLY lends itself to making a good transition for such.

Just chill, bro. Appreciate it for what it is: Music.

This is not the first time people have made the assumption that I or others dislike some of these songs just because of some rose-tinted nostalgia that can't be lived up to. Or that someone had the audacity to dislike some of these tracks just because they aren't straight arrangements. Maybe(and hear me out on this one), but MAYBE some of the songs in this soundtrack just... aren't... that... good? Am I really being that unreasonable here? Are OCRemixer's egos truly that fragile?

The comments that I've seen(and given) here have been overwhelmingly positive. But when someone makes a decent critical point about one(1) song, suddenly they're just not listening to it right? My, but that is a convenient philosophy. One that says a lousy track is never the fault of the artist. Disagreeing over the quality of music is one thing, but I find it insulting when my ability to listen to a song "properly" is put into question.

[audio fidelity]

making music is the real experience - and i implore that you genesis is the track that's changed my life - it simply became what it wanted to - and i'm satisfied - atm thats all i care about but thanks for the crits yo

[Monobrow]

I'm trying super hard not to be offended by this - he did an amazing job with that track. So MANY people agree. You have no idea what you're talking about. No disrespect to you, of course. I'm very well-mannered. OCRs-to-be get rejected quite often because they drag the source too long or just too much instead of turning it into their own. This site is called OC ReMix... as in... remixing it to your own flavor of sound and creativity. There is NOTHING wrong with the song. It's a REMIX. If you need or want nostalgia, just listen to the original track in the OSV. I don't know how any other way he could've remixed it. Lol Besides that point as Jordan and I are both electronic lovers to the max...We both know most people would have NEVER thought Goblez could be turned into a good house song. That is enough to call it a great song.

You need to chill out and realize that this is just my opinion. I'm not going to back down from it just because "so many people like this mix" or disagree with me or any of the reasons you said up there. What I said I'm sticking by and I don't even think of it as offensive. I pointed out that the change did make the song lose the feel of the original in a way that I did not like. Big deal!

It's nice that you like it and are gung ho about it like this, however to take personal offense to a remark like that about his song?

It's nice that you are defending your dude, however none of the stuff you're saying has any concrete relevance towards whether I should like the song or not.

Every post in response, except for yours, shows that I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. The difference is, while what he did may irk me, you and others think it's awesome. :J

All I care about when I hear a song is whether I like it or not, and I listed the reasons. You think what he did was creative, that's cool. Hell I guess I should agree... But I still don't like the song for the same reason I said a few days ago. And honestly, I'm glad I didn't say this in the review thread because man what a shit storm that would have been! So I'd chalk it up, because 1 person not liking the song out of 120955 isn't so bad.

which is the inherent problem for remixing a song and having someone not like it from where they are coming from and how they feel about the source - it's tough right - but i guess hearing something in a new light can be as rewarding as it is frustrating for others

Thanks Jay. I didn't mean any offense (hence the "no offense" in my original post) This was pretty much what I was talking about, and what others were talking about, which is why I brought the Blind Song up in the first place (not to "attack" blind but to bring up a point and since his song is the first song that comes to mind when listening to the whole "true to the source" argument, I talked about in what way it irks me as an example)

[prophetik music]

hey i downloaded all the tracks but i deleted them all because they aren't chiptunes just wanted to tell everyone who spent two years creating them that they all are terrible k peace btw MAKE MORE MUSIC

does anyone else think that the above statement mirrors most of the critics of this album? entitlement is a BAD thing, lurkers.

[Cyril the Wolf]

Emerald Beauty: Really like this one. That lead sound that comes in at :58 confuses me though; what instrument is that? Reminds me a lot of Dali Village from Final Fantasy IX, which is a HUGE compliment, my friend. Saxophone parts are gorgeous, too. Nice work.

I'll review more if I feel like it. I guess these were in order after all..

Glad you liked it! It's supposed to be a violin... I dunno what that means for you, but, yea!

[Rozovian]

It's supposed to be a violin... I dunno what that means for you, but, yea!

Probably means that you're doing all right. Wasn't mistaken for bagpipes. Which it can also sound like. I speak from experience and many a secret fail.

[Cyril the Wolf]

O_O Bagpipes? Whoa... Bagpipes tend to sound more like an annoying Oboe to me or something. But hey

everyone has secret fails!

[bLiNd]

You need to chill out and realize that this is just my opinion. I'm not going to back down from it just because "so many people like this mix" or disagree with me or any of the reasons you said up there. What I said I'm sticking by and I don't even think of it as offensive. I pointed out that the change did make the song lose the feel of the original in a way that I did not like. Big deal!

It's nice that you like it and are gung ho about it like this, however to take personal offense to a remark like that about his song?

It's nice that you are defending your dude, however none of the stuff you're saying has any concrete relevance towards whether I should like the song or not.

Every post in response, except for yours, shows that I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. The difference is, while what he did may irk me, you and others think it's awesome. :J

All I care about when I hear a song is whether I like it or not, and I listed the reasons. You think what he did was creative, that's cool. Hell I guess I should agree... But I still don't like the song for the same reason I said a few days ago. And honestly, I'm glad I didn't say this in the review thread because man what a shit storm that would have been! So I'd chalk it up, because 1 person not liking the song out of 120955 isn't so bad.

Thanks Jay. I didn't mean any offense (hence the "no offense" in my original post) This was pretty much what I was talking about, and what others were talking about, which is why I brought the Blind Song up in the first place (not to "attack" blind but to bring up a point and since his song is the first song that comes to mind when listening to the whole "true to the source" argument, I talked about in what way it irks me as an example)

Hey Monobrow,

Dont take offense to her offense either..its obvious you have a bond to the original track and there are plenty of mixes that irk me the same way so I totally understand your opinion of the track. But I guess you just have to look at the goal and purpose of the remix. I had several goals to make with the song. One was to stay true to my remixing style. Two was to change it in a way that would make it original so I could make a front page post. Three was to actually STAY true to the original as best I could as well as make it my own (which is what zircon pointed out is that I used the intro and buildup with the original progression and the used my own progression as the hook). Those were the hardest factors. I was really asked to take the track over because overcoat was sitting on his. I looked at it as a challenge because that track is REALLY hard to remix! Its hard to make anything out of it. Its really awesome on its own and its hard to come up with anything even remotely interesting, now hybound proved me wrong but that is a different source even though its the same motif and thats just the nature of creativity. But the fact is you still complimented my production and sounds even though you just couldnt connect with it. But DJP did say it was badass in the writeup even though you said it lost its badassness (is that a word?) I guess its two different types of cool or badass sounding music.. At Magfest my goal in my genre was proven, it really made people go nuts! It was a cool way of taking a villains theme and making it a floor anthem.

Anyway, my wife has a strong attachment to that song so thats why she wanted to defend it, she didnt mean anything personal towards you and i know you didnt mean anything towards me either. Just the heat of the moment and the emotions that come with music can bring someone to speak their mind. So anyway thank you for your comments monobrow and zircon and audio fidelity. Lets all get along now....

[Monobrow]

Sure thing :J

Hell, I just want to say that this isn't how I view all remixes, I like what I like, and what I don't like I do usually try to see the reasoning for whatever someone is doing. Some remixes that change things about the original I really really like, and others I just don't find the choice that great... Apples and oranges.

This song didn't particularly hit the mark with me, but I'm just one person, it's just my opinion, and I really hope that you guys can see where I am coming from without thinking of it as an attack (it's not, why would it be?)

I was really just using your song as an example in the argument, and god knows we've all heard this argument before, about the balance between source and arrangement. I am sure some people didn't mind the changes, and hell they enjoyed them. But you are right, I have a very special attachment to this game and to that song in particular from wayyyyyyyy back. I thought of what you changed in the song as an important factor that made the original what it was, and I didn't see why. You explained it and thanks for that, and I can see why you did it that way. The difference here being, I thought what you changed up was probably the most important thing in the song, and you were giving it your own stylistic...twist... So maybe it's like this, to me the original badassness was lost, however you put your own badassness... back in? And yeah, I complimented the synths, details, etc. etc. for a reason.

Yeah badassness should be a word.

And no, I am not taking offense of Jade's offense, er... defense... She's like a linebacker or something. Anyway, I was just surprised that she got so worked up! It's opinions, yo! And like I said originally, NO OFFENSE! I will chill out and not be set off but crud okay? WE COOL LETS ALL CHILL <3 WE COOL!

[bLiNd]

group hug <3

[Level 99]

I think we all learned a valuable lesson today: never judge a book by its cover.

No wait, it's don't cry over spilled milk.

No, that's not it either.

Hmm, I think we all should eat COOKIES!

[bLiNd]

NOOO

cupcakes!

[Level 99]

Can't we do both? I'll make cookies and you make cupcakes, we'll meet in the middle.

[Cyril the Wolf]

Forgive me, but I do believe the correct choice is: Chocolate Chip Muffins.

[bLiNd]

yea but jade has to make the cupcakes not me