Heroes of Newerth

[Tensei]

eternal Zero, you might have posted about this already, but what are your thoughts on the new scout, still garbage? Seems to me that with the AoE silence and the disarming passive he'd be a pretty decent anti-carry himself now.

[zircon]

Hmm, Magebane and MQ as B? Why's that? MQ is a pretty devestating carry because of her ult and aura, but also a good farmer thanks to the AOE damage thing. Also, she's not mana reliant, unlike many other carries. MB also needs little mana and can escape/gank very easily with the practically 0-cooldown blink. Plus, the manaburn thing basically gives him +80 damage per attack against anyone, and I'd say that is quite significant.

I don't understand why Soul Reaper is A/S. That seems far too high. His AOE damage/heal is certainly unimpressive. 1% max health drained per second, even to a 3k HP tank is only 30 HP which is still weaker than a mock of brilliance, and certainly not a significant threat. With only one active his mana regen thing hardly seems amazing which leaves his ult. OK, it's basically a 45% execute. Pretty cool, but it's an ult, so you can't use it that much, and both TB and Legionnaire have similar skills (but more overall utility.)

Andromeda I'm on the fence about. Do you really think she's actually slightly worse than average? Her early game ganking capability is significant (long, high-damage stun plus swap) and later she's solid support with an AOE armor debuff, swap and damage aura (stronger than any other, I believe.) I know she's not S, but she seems at least average.

Blood Hunter, I might agree with you on that. He doesn't have enough tricks. And HB could probably move up, you're right.

Valk as A? Hmm.. not so sure. Her stun is unreliable in a teamfight and moves slow enough that it's dodgeable (plus having creeps around makes it easier to avoid.) Right now, she can also be hit mid-leap which makes it essentially like a weak blink. Her AOE is OK but nothing special, and her stat gain is mediocre for an AGI hero. What role does she play that makes her just as good as other A heroes?

Lastly.. Puppet as A seems too high. Yes he's a good farmer, a surprisingly powerful INT carry (basically has 20% 2x AOE crit as a passive, and a self-only damage buff), and doesn't need mana. But against any smart opponent, Puppet is not too useful because all you have to do is move away quickly. His disables are, as the HoN forum guys pointed out, pseudo-disables only. If you had to pick a disabler, Pollywog is certainly better, and sheep/channel -> wards is more powerful and reliable than Puppet (plus you can push with them.) But still, maybe.

[eternal Zero]

eternal Zero, you might have posted about this already, but what are your thoughts on the new scout, still garbage? Seems to me that with the AoE silence and the disarming passive he'd be a pretty decent anti-carry himself now.

I actually don't think he's garbage anymore. Definitely not a great hero by any means but he's no longer completely useless. Still really weak in a real game but in a pub he can definitely hold his own. Didn't notice him on the list. Definitely not A. Drop both him and Night Hound to C.

Hmm, Magebane and MQ as B? Why's that? MQ is a pretty devestating carry because of her ult and aura, but also a good farmer thanks to the AOE damage thing. Also, she's not mana reliant, unlike many other carries. MB also needs little mana and can escape/gank very easily with the practically 0-cooldown blink. Plus, the manaburn thing basically gives him +80 damage per attack against anyone, and I'd say that is quite significant.

I don't understand why Soul Reaper is A/S. That seems far too high. His AOE damage/heal is certainly unimpressive. 1% max health drained per second, even to a 3k HP tank is only 30 HP which is still weaker than a mock of brilliance, and certainly not a significant threat. With only one active his mana regen thing hardly seems amazing which leaves his ult. OK, it's basically a 45% execute. Pretty cool, but it's an ult, so you can't use it that much, and both TB and Legionnaire have similar skills (but more overall utility.)

Andromeda I'm on the fence about. Do you really think she's actually slightly worse than average? Her early game ganking capability is significant (long, high-damage stun plus swap) and later she's solid support with an AOE armor debuff, swap and damage aura (stronger than any other, I believe.) I know she's not S, but she seems at least average.

Blood Hunter, I might agree with you on that. He doesn't have enough tricks. And HB could probably move up, you're right.

Valk as A? Hmm.. not so sure. Her stun is unreliable in a teamfight and moves slow enough that it's dodgeable (plus having creeps around makes it easier to avoid.) Right now, she can also be hit mid-leap which makes it essentially like a weak blink. Her AOE is OK but nothing special, and her stat gain is mediocre for an AGI hero. What role does she play that makes her just as good as other A heroes?

Lastly.. Puppet as A seems too high. Yes he's a good farmer, a surprisingly powerful INT carry (basically has 20% 2x AOE crit as a passive, and a self-only damage buff), and doesn't need mana. But against any smart opponent, Puppet is not too useful because all you have to do is move away quickly. His disables are, as the HoN forum guys pointed out, pseudo-disables only. If you had to pick a disabler, Pollywog is certainly better, and sheep/channel -> wards is more powerful and reliable than Puppet (plus you can push with them.) But still, maybe.

MB has two main uses: Tank and Caster Killer. The pro build is Vanguard->Heart as all he needs is to survive. In the pro metagame he used to be quite effective because casters were all too common. In a regular pub he could be a star but he requires a lot of farm to do so. Otherwise he's another right-click hero in a teamfight and this is largely useless.

As for Moon Queen she requires massive amounts of farm to be useful. The only reason she should be picked over another carry is if your team is good and coordinated enough to stack the ancient creep spawns for you since she is the fastest farmer in that respect. However in lane her attack bounces will push your lane and put you into danger so you can't start with that. Same reason you can't get her aura early or you will be placing yourself at risk. Therefore she is mana reliant early game in order to maintain some semblance of lane control (which she is quite bad at). Her ult isn't to be used as a main combat tool because making magic damage useless is far too common and easy.

Soul Reaper. AoE damage/heal is one of the best spells in the game. Easy farm/harass as well as significant damage far into the late game. His AoE degen aura is great in lane to keep the opposing side low on hp. You can't compare his ult to those two because it always scales where the other two do not.

Andromeda is solid support but won't keep losing games alive. I'd only consider picking her over other stunners if my entire team was as skilled as I am because she sets a ganking pace to the game.

Valk is one of the longest and best skill oriented stuns in the game. She isn't a hard carry so don't look at stat gain. Her AoE damage is sickening up until the later part of the late game. Leap should be seen as an excellent team buff. Her ult is nice and tricky and adds a lot. She is a solid ganker/anti-ganker and my favorite agi-hero. Also sees ton of play in pro DotA for these very reasons.

I'm willing to accept your view on Puppet, however. Had the same kind of feelings/arguments with my roommate and Silencer in DotA.

Also no such thing as a God Tier. Magmus B. Jer A and Tempest A. They're not -that- good.

[zircon]

Soul Reaper's AOE is weaker than that of Nymphora or Jeraziah though, both of whom are better support to boot. I'd hardly call 275 magic damage "significant" when plenty of other heroes have AOEs at least that strong, if not stronger, and two others have combo AOE/heals that are stronger. And didn't you just say MQ's ult is useless because magic damage is too easy to mitigate? Can't you say that about Soul Reaper or any other magic-based character? MQ doesn't RELY on her magic damage unlike SR (or Pyro or TB or...) and scales better into late game.

Same complaint about your view on Valk. MQ's magic is useless but Valk's AOE isn't? What? 300 AOE again is not that impressive. Heroes with as strong or stronger AOEs: Jeraziah, Nymphora, Pebbles, Pyromancer, Soulstealer, Wretched Hag, Defiler... yeah, Valk's long stun is nice but it's easy to dodge or mitigate, especially if you have a blink or movement boosting ability. An average AOE and unreliable stun doesn't seem to make up an A or S character to me, especially when her leap is not that great and her ult is both expensive, situational and easily countered (dust, bound eye.)

[Tensei]

Soul Reaper's AOE is weaker than that of Nymphora or Jeraziah though, both of whom are better support to boot. I'd hardly call 275 magic damage "significant" when plenty of other heroes have AOEs at least that strong, if not stronger, and two others have combo AOE/heals that are stronger. And didn't you just say MQ's ult is useless because magic damage is too easy to mitigate? Can't you say that about Soul Reaper or any other magic-based character? MQ doesn't RELY on her magic damage unlike SR (or Pyro or TB or...) and scales better into late game.

Same complaint about your view on Valk. MQ's magic is useless but Valk's AOE isn't? What? 300 AOE again is not that impressive. Heroes with as strong or stronger AOEs: Jeraziah, Nymphora, Pebbles, Pyromancer, Soulstealer, Wretched Hag, Defiler... yeah, Valk's long stun is nice but it's easy to dodge or mitigate, especially if you have a blink or movement boosting ability. An average AOE and unreliable stun doesn't seem to make up an A or S character to me, especially when her leap is not that great and her ult is both expensive, situational and easily countered (dust, bound eye.)

Soul Reaper's healnuke is on 5 second cooldown, so you'll probably be able to spam it at least four times in most teamfights. This, along with the damage aura, adds up. Nymphora's and Jereziah's healnukes are both harder to aim, and will affect fewer targets. Not to mention that they won't be able to spam as much as Soul Reaper, so while he might not deal damage in big bursts, I'm sure the damage and healing will eventually add up and make a difference.

[LuketheXjesse]

What are some keyboard shortcuts I should know about (if any)?

I recently learned about R letting you use your ult, for one.

[zircon]

QWER corresponds to your abilities - this is the same for every character. So, Q activates your first skill (first slot), W is the second (second slot), etc. Passive skills cannot be activated.

Clicking on yourself then pressing control + (Number) on yourself will hotkey your hero. I recommend doing control+1. Then, if you press "1" twice in quick succession, the camera will center on your character. This is useful because often times you'll want to scroll around the map but then quickly jump back to your character.

ALT+Q, ALT+W and ALT+E correspond to the top three slots in your inventory. So, if you have Enhanced Marchers in the top-left slot (slot 1), ALT+Q will activate them.

[Tensei]

Haha, oh man, if you've been using items/casting spells by right clicking on them, learning to use the hotkeys will make you improve a TON.

[LuketheXjesse]

Which is the primary reason I asked.

[eternal Zero]

Soul Reaper's AOE is weaker than that of Nymphora or Jeraziah though, both of whom are better support to boot. I'd hardly call 275 magic damage "significant" when plenty of other heroes have AOEs at least that strong, if not stronger, and two others have combo AOE/heals that are stronger. And didn't you just say MQ's ult is useless because magic damage is too easy to mitigate? Can't you say that about Soul Reaper or any other magic-based character? MQ doesn't RELY on her magic damage unlike SR (or Pyro or TB or...) and scales better into late game.

Same complaint about your view on Valk. MQ's magic is useless but Valk's AOE isn't? What? 300 AOE again is not that impressive. Heroes with as strong or stronger AOEs: Jeraziah, Nymphora, Pebbles, Pyromancer, Soulstealer, Wretched Hag, Defiler... yeah, Valk's long stun is nice but it's easy to dodge or mitigate, especially if you have a blink or movement boosting ability. An average AOE and unreliable stun doesn't seem to make up an A or S character to me, especially when her leap is not that great and her ult is both expensive, situational and easily countered (dust, bound eye.)

Tensei hit on it. It's the amount of casting as well as the ability it gives them to super farm. Soul Reaper can cast a lot and Valk has that small chance to hit a target within melee range a second time which any skillful player can abuse again and again. Also both are much easier to aim than Nymph/Jer. Also it is fine to counter an ultimate with magic resist because it takes a while to build up. It's much harder to prevent a regular spell from already doing it's lasting damage to your team even if you go for magic resist. Take Thunderbringer for example. Like him, by the time you can afford the magic resistance he'll have done his job. Unlike Moon Queen who needs to get lucky once or twice with her weak level 6 ult before you get your resist.

Granted I am assuming faithful ports here. I don't know about SoulReaper but I know for fact that Valkyrie is not a faithful port of Priestess of the Moon.

Also you assume Valk's stun is the first stun and that they can dodge it. You would be incorrect as most situations dictate that you are the second disable that is the nail in the coffin.

[bladiator]

I am going to continue to whine about this. Non-noobs in noob games. By the time we conceded this last game, the Magebane was double our team's level, and would regularly be able to kill 3-4 of us in every team fight. Yeeeeah, nice work getting your rocks off on new players.

[Kidd Cabbage]

So, I'm just going to but in and argue some more and just get out there that I really disagree with most of zircon's tier list. It seems to me like a lot of the higher tiered heroes are ones that you might have a hard time countering, personally, and the lower-tiered ones can be amazing, and playing mostly in-house, you just haven't seen them played well. I'm not saying I could play them, but I've seen Ophelias (one of the hardest characters to actually play right) that can crush almost entire teams in midgame team fights, and you obviously have just had some terrible Keeper of the Forest experiences. My point is that most heroes have almost the same opportunity to do well for their team as others, depending on the player controlling them. The game is much more balanced than you're giving it credit for, and some heroes and countering them is just something based on playstyle or learning specifically different than others. If I had to do a tier list, I would probably have three tiers - one for most heroes, ones that could use a slight buff, and ones that could use a slight nerf - and that's pushing it. I just think you're basing your tiers too much on the skills of those that you play with often and your own skills.

[zircon]

Well, what else am I supposed to base them on except what I know? Like I said, this isn't me telling pros what they should be doing, but rather a community effort to understand what heroes we generally consider to be strong or not. When I looked up the community tier forums on the actual HoN forums ours are actually not that far off. The heroes we consider to be weaker (Accursed, Keeper, TDL, Chronos) match up with theirs, while our S/God ones (Tempest, Jeraziah, Succu, TB, etc.) match up with their top picks.

I'm not saying the game is imbalanced at all - don't think I ever have - just that there are better picks than others. Yes, Keeper can be good. But if you need an initiator, would you rather have him or Behemoth? If you need a nuker, would you rather have Hag or Thunderbringer? If you need a disabler, would you rather have Puppet Master or Succubus?

I am going to continue to whine about this. Non-noobs in noob games. By the time we conceded this last game, the Magebane was double our team's level, and would regularly be able to kill 3-4 of us in every team fight. Yeeeeah, nice work getting your rocks off on new players.

I agree. My main complaint about DotA/HoN is how even just a few kills or a slight advantage builds up exponentially.

[relyanCe]

what ibbiaz said basically

[Kidd Cabbage]

u wan b frends

[eternal Zero]

I agree. My main complaint about DotA/HoN is how even just a few kills or a slight advantage builds up exponentially.

Welcome to the world of DotA. No mercy.

[zircon]

Just because it is doesn't mean it should be that way, you know It's basically exponential slippery slope. Dying is bad for you and good for the enemy in about a dozen different ways. IMO, any of the following should be done; less XP gained for hero kills, less gold gained for hero kills, less gold LOST for dying.

Anyway, played Soul Reaper today... he's OK but I'm skeptical that he is A-tier. His execute seems somehow unreliable, and is quite mana-intensive. His nuke isn't bad but it doesn't even kill archers at level 4, thus you still have to do a lot of auto attacking. DEFINITELY not as good for farming as Nympho's pod, for example. Plus, the animation isn't instantaneous even after it's cast, which is a pain. Lastly, his attack animation seems sluggish and he's on the slow side. B, in my opinion.

[eternal Zero]

Little tip on how to farm with almost any AoE nuke (Valk, Wretched Hag, Soul Reaper): Hit ranged creep once. Start autoattacking melee creep that your creeps aren't focusing. When the two melee creeps are low, cast the nuke. This will kill 3/5 of the creeps then you can easily last hit the remaining two. Note: This is midgame farming. NOT early.

[Clefairy]

Just because it is doesn't mean it should be that way, you know

Doesn't matter. Dota's been around for a good while now; the culture's had a long time to settle into its ways. Unless there's a big shift in their way of thinking, I can't see the game getting any less cutthroat; if anything, it'll probably continue in that direction.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Yeah, I agree, and that's part of what makes HoN/Dota strategy what it is. The game is balanced on the principle of ganks being so important. If ganking wasn't as hindering to them and beneficial to you, people wouldn't opt to leave lanes so early for ganks, nor would people really have to worry about dying as much. There wouldn't be as easy of a counter to Arachna or Chronos without being able to gimp them early on. It would just tilt the table even more in the direction of farming heroes.

[zircon]

Just because it was originally designed that way doesn't make it good. I think Chronos is a stupid hero, for example. He is laughably weak early on and gamebreaking later. He should be toned down. It's like the design decisions made in HD Remix. T.Hawk was considered to be the worst character in Super Turbo, but if he ever got in close (which was very hard), he basically won automatically. That's a stupid tactic, and not balanced. Dave Sirlin balanced this by taking away this auto-win loop but making him stronger overall, and the game is better for it.

All I'm saying is that DotA was designed by a bunch of hobbyists and amateur game designers who admittedly did a great job overall, but who also should not be unquestioned. S2 has a full staff and the resources to fix any design decisions in the original DotA that were holding the game back (for example, I think the concept of last-hitting and denying is kind of stupid and counter-intuitive, adding a needless layer of execution.)

[Tensei]

Some thoughts on "Which lane should I take?":

While it may seem pretty arbitrary whether you take the top or bottom lane (from a legion perspective, on forests of caldavar), there's some slight differences that make certain heroes more suited to be in a particular lane.

Top Lane (Legion) characteristics:

- Defaults to be very close to the enemy tower, so unless you're a lot better at laning than your opponents, you will generally be more vulnerable to ganks in this lane, since the creep waves will clash close to the enemy tower most of the time.

- No neutral creeps around, unless you try to neutral pull from the hellbourne jungle (risky).

- Faces the hellbourne 'safe' lane, so if your opponents know what they're doing you will probably be facing a carry and a babysitting support hero.

Considering all this, I think legion top is most suited for heroes that aren't that item-dependent, but are capable of strong lane-control with multiple stuns and/or burst damage (i.e. gankers), to allow for a possible first blood on the enemy carry. Examples: Behemoth, Magmus, Succubus, Pharaoh, Andromeda, Wretched Hag, Pyromancer and similar heroes.

Obviously ideally you'll only want one melee hero at most, to allow for harassment on the enemy carry. (if the enemy has a ranged support and a carry against your two melee gankers, the carry should have an easy time farming last-hits while the support hero can just take potshots at you whenever you come in range)

Mid Lane:

- Very close to towers, abusable high ground, so very safe overall.

- River allows for fast access to sidelanes and runes, so it's easy to set up ganks.

- Heroes in this lane will most likely solo so they will level faster than their teammates in the sidelanes.

If you take a look at these characteristics, it's pretty obvious that a mid-laning hero should be capable of several things to make the most use of this position:

- He has to be able to gank as early as possible, the level advantage will give him quicker access to higher-level skills and items, so he'll be able to do significant damage to heroes in sidelanes in earlygame.

- He has to be able to make use of the bottle and runes, even if it's to just deny them from the enemy hero. Heroes with powerful nukes but a low manapool will be able to make excellent use of the bottle and midlane because they will be able to replenish their mana.

- He needs decent lane-presence to be able to score last-hits ( ranged heroes are very much preferred, though not necessary. A decent madman can do fine in mid in a low-level game.)

- Though again not necessary, it helps a lot if the hero scales decently into lategame, since he probably will be farming quite a lot of gold and xp if he ganks a lot (which he should).

So considering all this, most likely you'll want a ranged ganker/semi-carry: Soulstealer, Thunderbringer, Arachna, Defiler, Pyromancer are all fine choices. Plague Rider is a bit of a special case, since he's mostly a support hero, so he MIGHT be better off babysitting your carry. However, his mana replenishment skill will deny creeps completely, causing the enemy hero to miss out on xp, which eventually adds up and can be REALLY frustrating to deal with since the enemy hero will fall behind and won't be able to carry his team as well. Not to mention he can spam his slowing nuke over and over again due to the infinite mana, so he has a really strong lane presence as well. Situational, but still solid pick for mid.

Bottom Lane:

- Defaults close to the tower, making it a 'safe' or 'short' lane.

- Has neutral creeps nearby, which allows for neutral-pulling and jungling.

The fact that this lane is relatively protected from ganks, makes it perfect for your main carry hero. Predator, Pestilence, Maliken, Swiftblade, Magebane, hell, even Chronos can perform well in this lane and get a lot of farm out of it, provided they have the right support.

Support heroes come in all flavors and sizes, but it's very very very much preferred that they have a ranged attack in this case, since it allows them to harass the enemy heroes as well as deny their own creeps, all of which will make it easier for the carry to farm up on last-hits.

Ideally the support hero will have some kind of long stun/slow and/or a healing ability, which will respectively give the carry some chances to get hero kills, or allow him to stay in lane for longer and skimp a bit on regen items in favor of getting his core items faster. Soul Reaper, Pollywog Priest, Electrician (kind of situational because he's melee), Nymphora, Demented Shaman, Voodoo Jester and Plague Rider are all fine choices for support heroes in this lane.

In case you have someone who's jungling or starts neutraling from a certain level onwards on your team, they will most likely start out in this lane as well, and should be helping with ganks in this lane if necessary. This goes for heroes like Zephyr, Legionnaire, Tempest, Warbeast, Wildsoul.

Jungling/neutralling should be seriously considered if you have any of these heroes because it makes the bottom lane another solo lane, which means more experience for the hero there.

A disadvantage of this is that you shouldn't be pitting a carry against two heroes because he most likely won't be able to farm up anything. In this case, just treat it like laning mid and pick another ganker/semi-carry (preferably not thunderbringer or soulstealer, as neither of them have escape mechanisms, which is tricky when you have no higher ground to fall back to. They also don't get to use their bottle as much).

Arachna or Madman would both be a decent choice for the bottom lane if you have someone jungling/neutraling. If you have a hard carry and a jungler on your team, move the hard carry with his support/babysitter to the top lane.

[BardicKnowledge]

Tensei, do similar lane theories exist for the other two maps?

[Tensei]

As far as I know, Watchtower's left and right lanes are exactly the same with tower placement, so the difference is a lot less pronounced (there's still the neutral creeps though). The midlane is basically the same as Caldavar.

Darkwood Vale's two lanes are exactly the same as far as I can tell.

[eternal Zero]

As far as I know, Watchtower's left and right lanes are exactly the same with tower placement, so the difference is a lot less pronounced (there's still the neutral creeps though). The midlane is basically the same as Caldavar.

Darkwood Vale's two lanes are exactly the same as far as I can tell.

Watchtower is much more gank oriented as the forest is easier to navigate and the lanes are closer together. The lanes are longer, however, so you want to keep the enemy tower alive as long as possible so you don't completely lose a safe lane.

Bottom lane in Darkwood Vale is usually safer. As Hellbourne you don't really need to focus on the area beneath you and as such you can focus on the forest above you whereas in top lane you get this benefit as Legion. Also Hellbourne has an innate advantage in that both rune spawns are easier for them to reach. Also ganking is not as prevalent in this map as travel is long and with only 3 opponents at most to look out for calling missing is a breeze.