Heroes of Newerth

[Tensei]

<3 Clockwerk

[Genoism]

wow, why don't you guys post this stuff in the newerth forums, the devs read virtually all the feedback. I personally haven't gotten into the game too much due to time restrictions but it seems like u guys are talking about stuff that would be really useful to the devs for balancing and whatnot.

[Dhsu]

Haha, that's true, we could've just replied in the HoN thread.

BTW I have to say they have the weirdest banner advertisements. One's just Armadon kinda dancing around. No animators on their team?

[bladiator]

I think it's pretty cool that they're taking what is well known in the community and using it to their advantage. I'm speaking here specifically about the banner ad that said "Want to Pre-purchase? TOO BAD IT'S ME BLACKSMITH!"

Or something to that effect.

[Dhsu]

Oh man, I am totally refreshing until I get that one.

And if you're lying I will cut off your fingers. ALL OF THEM.

Edit: GAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[bladiator]

Yay! I keep my fingers for another day!

[Hemophiliac]

Anyway, the new Enrage numbers could be changed, including the mana, but the CONCEPT of it is almost objectively superior to the old one, which was simply useless. Again, competitive Behe guides don't recommend leveling it past one EVER or until way late in the game. That's not good design.

I can think of another hero that only keeps a skill at level one for a long time.

zeus does that make the skill useless? no it's synergistic with his other one, just like behemoth.

both heroes gotta have a little downside.

[zircon]

I would argue, however, that his Chain Lightning *can* be leveled earlier as a farming tool. But yes, that one pretty much sucks also, and I would rather they buff that and nerf his lightning rod rather than have useless skills that might as well just do nothing but proc a passive.

[bladiator]

I can think of another hero that only keeps a skill at level one for a long time.

zeus does that make the skill useless? no it's synergistic with his other one, just like behemoth.

both heroes gotta have a little downside.

Weaknesses are one thing. But having skills that don't matter is another. It's not about making these heroes that much better than the other ones, but it's about making all the skills useful and balancing out a character so it's not one-dimensional.

[eternal Zero]

You guys are focusing way too much on optimal fissure use. A good behemoth player could potentially solo mid with just the gold he could get from farm/harassing with fissure. He can win against a double lane by himself provided he has enough mana. Two creep kills + nuke/stun + positioning on enemy lane is really really easy to do with each fissure and this adds up quick. Those are just with straight line fissures and timing them well. He's fine as is.

Also one dimensionality? You speak as if every hero should be able to do anything. Most heroes suffer from crappy 4th skills, so what? Get stats. You're arguing about 4th skill syndrome on two of the strongest heroes in the metagame. Or would you rather have a case of too many good skills on a hero like Nymphora where you want all four maxed ASAP and early decision of points is critical? Though most competitive users go stun/mana and ignore pod until later. You can't have the best of both worlds. Don't change the game to make up for shortcomings in your decision making I say.

[zircon]

Zero, like I posted on the HoN forums, if we're willing to just say it's OK for heroes to have crappy skills if we just buff their other ones, why not make a really one-dimensional hero with only ONE good skill and three crappy ones? If given the choice between having three good skills and four good skills, NO other factors considered, the obvious choice would be the latter. The question only becomes how to balance a character if they were already good even with a 'bad' skill. There is absolutely no reason to settle for less when we can instead shoot for optimal game design.

Honestly, this mirrors the HD Remix "debate" almost perfectly. SSF2T is considered to be one of the best, most balanced fighting games around. That being said, there are clear character tiers, useless moves and imbalances. Many people whined when David Sirlin said he was creating a rebalanced mode in HD Remix, because, well, the game was already good. However, the end result is that HD Remix adds new tactical decisions, tightens the tiers, adds new moves and buffs the formerly useless ones. Now, it is the tournament standard, and not SSF2T. Point is, a good game designer can take even a great design and make it better than it was. Great doesn't mean 'flawless.'

[Tensei]

There's lots of other heroes with skills that are mostly useless or even detrimental during certain phases of the game. That's why there's quite a few heroes where you get stats early on instead of leveling a second skill.

Behemoth is an example of a hero where I won't get anything but stats+ fissure until level 6, simply because there's no real use for having another stun that early when the alternative is increasing your mana pool and survivability. There's actually very few heroes that have skills that are ALL equally powerful and worth getting asap (Nymphora is an example of this, though), which is why there's usually a logical order in which to get your skills on most heroes.

[zircon]

I'm not saying every skill needs to be equally powerful and worth getting ASAP, but if a skill is so obviously bad that it's just never used or leveled really late (Terrify, Enrage, Chain Lightning) then it should be redesigned. The result will only be deeper heroes and deeper gameplay.

[anosou]

I'm not saying every skill needs to be equally powerful and worth getting ASAP, but if a skill is so obviously bad that it's just never used or leveled really late (Terrify, Enrage, Chain Lightning) then it should be redesigned. The result will only be deeper heroes and deeper gameplay.

But if the rest of the skills are so fantastic a hero is banned in higher level games (Behemoth) changing the "useless" skills would severely unbalance the gameplay. The skills aren't USELESS (Enrage can be used as an interrupt, Chain Lightning for farming and extra damage) they're just much less powerful to make the hero OVERALL balanced. The result will not only be deeper heroes and deeper gameplay, the result will be imbalance and/or even MORE needless balance because every skill needs to be "good".

[zircon]

Right, which is why I was saying if you're going to buff a useless skill, the question is how to adjust the others to compensate. I've said umpteen times that I know Behemoth is powerful, and I'm not suggesting an overall buff... merely making one of his useless abilities useful and toning some other aspect down to compensate. Otherwise, why not just make heroes that pretty much only do one thing and one thing only, but are gamebreaking when they do it? That's just poor design. Remember that DotA has been cobbled together over the years and just because it is one way doesn't mean that way is correct and should never be touched.

In other words, I don't believe overpowering one ability to compensate for an underpowered second ability is a good way of doing things. Make them BOTH good. You can only gain strategy and depth by doing this. It's like if Ryu had a Hadoken in Street Fighter that did 50% of your health if you got hit, but the rest of his abilities (dragon punch, hurricane kick) were useless. Would anyone say that is better than his current character, with three useful abilities?

[anosou]

Right, which is why I was saying if you're going to buff a useless skill, the question is how to adjust the others to compensate. I've said umpteen times that I know Behemoth is powerful, and I'm not suggesting an overall buff... merely making one of his useless abilities useful and toning some other aspect down to compensate. Otherwise, why not just make heroes that pretty much only do one thing and one thing only, but are gamebreaking when they do it? That's just poor design. Remember that DotA has been cobbled together over the years and just because it is one way doesn't mean that way is correct and should never be touched.

Heard you like Tempest... or ok, Wretched Hag?

In other words, I don't believe overpowering one ability to compensate for an underpowered second ability is a good way of doing things. Make them BOTH good. You can only gain strategy and depth by doing this.

I think somehow that would affect the difference in heroes. While Behemoth's certainly no one-trick pony his playstyle (focused on great positioning and stunning) is unique AND fun to play. If fissure or his ulti was nerfed and Enrage changed he would probably be played differently, lose his unique style.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you think it's poor design, not everyone does. I like that one skill is hardly ever used. It's highly situational and allows focus on his two other skills, offering a unique playstyle. Agree do disagree (YOU ARE WRONG FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU)?

[bladiator]

I think somehow that would affect the difference in heroes. While Behemoth's certainly no one-trick pony his playstyle (focused on great positioning and stunning) is unique AND fun to play. If fissure or his ulti was nerfed and Enrage changed he would probably be played differently, lose his unique style.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you think it's poor design, not everyone does. I like that one skill is hardly ever used. It's highly situational and allows focus on his two other skills, offering a unique playstyle. Agree do disagree (YOU ARE WRONG FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU)?

I'm usually ok with the "Agree to disagree" standpoint on things, but I don't understand the push against a change like this. If none of you had ever played DotA or ever played beta in HoN, and then the game came out the way Zircon is proposing it, it would probably be JUST FINE. I remember when the original DotA classic came out. I played it from v1.6 on. Things NEVER stayed the same from week to week or month to month. They were constantly tweaking the game to make it a little fuller, a little better.

Now you're going to tell me, "But you don't need to tweak something that is already working fine." But I say, is it really perfect, or is it just what you are used to playing and like the way it plays and don't want to adapt and adjust? This is Heroes of Newerth, not DotA All-Stars 2 Turbo Tournament Edition. Again, the skill is not just something that is useless, it is something that is being used not for its own strength, but because it activates another skill.

...

THAT'S RETARDED

[relyanCe]

seriously why is everyone hating on enrage?

maybe you don't think +200% base damage isn't worth anything, but in games in which i play behemoth it means finishing off the other teams carry during my initiation, or wiping my whole team cuz i couldn't get the final hit in.

you do realize that lategame an enrage hit + weapon damage can do upwards of 500-600 damage in a single hit? Theres a reason some people stack battle furies on him, and it has nothing to do with fissure or his ultimate.

[zircon]

I've never heard of a Behemoth build with battlefuries... that's pretty stupid. By endgame with no +damage items (which he SHOULDN'T HAVE) he will do 380-400 damage in a swipe. Nothing to scoff at, but it's not useful enough vs. 3 levels of stats, IMO. His inventory is better used for things like Portkey, Shrunken Head, Posthaste/Steamboots, Behemoth's Heart, Frostfield Plate and Ring of Sorcery.

I think somehow that would affect the difference in heroes. While Behemoth's certainly no one-trick pony his playstyle (focused on great positioning and stunning) is unique AND fun to play. If fissure or his ulti was nerfed and Enrage changed he would probably be played differently, lose his unique style.

I'm not suggesting anything that would change his playstyle at all. Enrage adds nothing to his playstyle. I also don't want to change Fissure at all. If anything, like I said, I would advocate a slight nerf of his ult so it doesn't gib the entire enemy team instantly in the lategame. He doesn't NEED that to be an excellent hero; 700-800 instant AOE damage + Heavyweight + stun + Fissure + Fissure stun + Heavyweight is a brutal enough combo as it is.

Changing enrage to a +Strength buff instead would still help with last-hitting, but make the ability worth using outside of simply proccing Heavyweight. In other words, it only adds depth, without changing his core playstyle in the least. An ability doesn't need to be BAD to fit in with a current hero build; you guys aren't thinking creatively enough.

[relyanCe]

don't knock it till you try it is all im sayin

[anosou]

that's retarded

that's how i roll

[eternal Zero]

Changing enrage to a +Strength buff instead would still help with last-hitting, but make the ability worth using outside of simply proccing Heavyweight. In other words, it only adds depth, without changing his core playstyle in the least. An ability doesn't need to be BAD to fit in with a current hero build; you guys aren't thinking creatively enough.

+ Strength or + Agility are already built into skills into two DotA heroes and they're ultimate level abilities. I realize you feel like changing the game to suit this hero but having the damage and activation of heavyweight from enrage is well worth it on a Behemoth. Pro Earthshaker players actually get all four skills eventually. Honestly it's not because I want this game to be DotA forever but I honestly think that most of your ideas have been done before in other heroes and that HoN is just so limited that you don't realize it. Even the new HoN heroes have all been done before in some form or fashion but they are just slightly altered due to a new gaming engine. It's hard to make change because of the vast amount of things done in this game before. I think that before you hope to make a lasting change on a hero you best focus your attention into creating a new item. Lots of skills and different effects have yet to be placed into items and this is where most people will contribute if at all. Just take a look at the latest updates. Suggestions about changes and the like have been made for years and years with DotA and since the beginning of HoN beta but what are the very few that even made it into the testing stage? Items. Nome's Wisdom (he's a cool guy, btw) and the new Harkon's blade. Not any hero changes. Oh that isn't fair. Maliken is actually a fan's idea of a hero that S2 took and didn't use the original hero concept. Still stands that his main two draws: the sword blink and ult transformation are slight tweaks to old DotA skills.

[zircon]

You forgot Magebane rework and Scout rework; both were community suggestions. Considering the game is not even out I would say that S2 has done a pretty fantastic job of implementing community feedback and suggestions, and will probably do an even better job once more of the bread and butter stuff is done (more maps, matchmaking, more DotA ports.) The potential for HoN is limitless since it isn't limited by WC3's engine.

You're saying Enrage shouldn't be +Str because it's been done in DotA. How many repeat skills are there already, anyway? There are tons of line nukes, simple damage+stuns, passive crit skills... and DotA was much worse in that regard. Are there really any skills that are active, relatively spammable, proc a secondary skill and give a short boost to STR? Even if there was one exactly like that, it certainly would fit Behemoth and be more useful than Enrage.

[eternal Zero]

You forgot Magebane rework and Scout rework; both were community suggestions. Considering the game is not even out I would say that S2 has done a pretty fantastic job of implementing community feedback and suggestions, and will probably do an even better job once more of the bread and butter stuff is done (more maps, matchmaking, more DotA ports.) The potential for HoN is limitless since it isn't limited by WC3's engine.

You're saying Enrage shouldn't be +Str because it's been done in DotA. How many repeat skills are there already, anyway? There are tons of line nukes, simple damage+stuns, passive crit skills... and DotA was much worse in that regard. Are there really any skills that are active, relatively spammable, proc a secondary skill and give a short boost to STR? Even if there was one exactly like that, it certainly would fit Behemoth and be more useful than Enrage.

First and foremost Scout is still a shit hero. Any "rework" is a waste of time. Secondly I'll give you Magebane though he was just fine in the beginning of HoN beta when he had +5 base strength instead of his current changes. He was a monster then, too.

You also misunderstand. I didn't say don't do it because it's been done. I was talking about "Select skill get permanent +15 Strength." That's the ultimate for Centaur and it's +agility for Drow Ranger. Also there is a hero that gets a spell that does -Str as well as damage in an area of effect as well as gives the +Str to the hero itself. That's on Undying.

[BardicKnowledge]

It's like if Ryu had a Hadoken in Street Fighter that did 50% of your health if you got hit, but the rest of his abilities (dragon punch, hurricane kick) were useless. Would anyone say that is better than his current character, with three useful abilities?

Actually, in the SF2HD remake, they gave Ryu a FOURTH special move: the fake fireball. It adds multiple levels of depth to his game, while not changing the way he's supposed to be played.

Why are people so opposed to adding depth to a hero? More options is almost always better, gang.