Heroes of Newerth

[eternal Zero]

Normally I'm fine with that level of play but you have to warn me first, lol. If I'm not carrying then I get very frustrated that I have nobody to rely on. Which you saw in spades.

And, Zircon, you are correct. I meant to say "carry viability".

[BardicKnowledge]

Blacksmith is really solid now as int support if you don't need the extra melee slot. I played a really solid BS game just now, fun as hell.

[Rambo]

Blacksmith is really solid now as int support if you don't need the extra melee slot. I played a really solid BS game just now, fun as hell.

That was a fun game. More than 2 tempest ults would have made it more fun. Namely when 4 of them were literally standing atop one another in the trees you warded for 10+ seconds, with all of us at the ready.

EDIT: I didn't realize Lopert was as good as he is. It never ceases to shock me when he contends hard with every game at LAN tournis we go to.

[zircon]

Enjoy your Tempest ult while I'm doing 100 magic damage per second to you! As Devourer that game I had +85 STR from passive. Brutal.

[Rambo]

Enjoy your Tempest ult while I'm doing 100 magic damage per second to you! As Devourer that game I had +85 STR from passive. Brutal.

I failed hard at sheep sticking you in the middle of your ults . You were a rotting fleshy tank. My fireballs barely dented you.

[zircon]

Yeah, the Null Stone helped with that. Magebane did an assload of damage to me though since Devo's armor is pretty bad (one of the lowest in the game) and his manaburn cut right through my fatty folds. But magic damage? Yeah, Devourer eats that for breakfast.

[Tensei]

Totally stealing zircon's tier list to adjust it to the post-balance changes.

God tier - Always pick these heroes if given the opportunity. Always ban them if the opposing team could have access.

S tier - Powerful, versatile characters that have significant utility. Try to fill your team with these.

A tier - Good heroes that can do one thing very well (perhaps on an S-tier level) but don't quite have as much overall utility as S-tiers. For example, Pollywog Priest is a great disabler. However, Succubus is an even better disabler, plus she has more lane staying power. Pandamonium and Rampage are solid STR carries with good stunning capabilities, but Pestilence offers more power overall.

B tier - Average picks. These may be competitive with the above tiers under circumstances, but cannot be thrown into any lineup. Generally these guys are mixed bags. For example, Swiftblade is a pretty good carry, but pales in comparison to Madman or the Dark Lady. Nymphora has some good potential but needs to be with the right heroes. Electrician counters Jeraziah, but doesn't offer a great deal to teamfights.

C tier - Below-average picks. Certainly capable of filling specific roles, but they have 1-2 "deadweight" or underpowered abilities, or are very easily countered. For example, Night Hound's Ult makes him invisible, but wards, dust, eyes and Pestilence's ult will reveal him. Keeper's ult is comparable to Tempest's, but not quite as good, his eyes are easily countered, and his self-damage buff is a waste.

D tier - Severely underpowered heroes. These guys require significant farm to be effective or are simply extremely hard to play properly. There is little reason to pick them over higher tier heroes.

God: Tempest, Jeraziah, Deadwood, Behemoth

S: Madman, Sand Wraith, Pestilence, Witch Slayer, Valkyrie, Hellbringer, Succubus, Plague Rider, Soul Reaper, Kraken, Pharaoh, Demented Shaman, Magebane, Forsaken Archer, Puppet Master, Wretched Hag, Pebbles

A: Legionnaire, Scout, Pandamonium, Soulstealer, Defiler, Torturer, Accursed, Glacius, Magmus, Hammerstorm, Pyromancer, Corrupted Disciple, Maliken, Predator, Engineer, Thunderbringer, The Dark Lady, Slither, Swiftblade, Blacksmith

B: Pollywog Priest, Vindicator, Nymphora, Blood Hunter, Wildsoul, Andromeda, Voodoo Jester, Moonqueen, Devourer, Nighthound, Keeper of the Forest

C: Armadon, War Beast, Chronos, Ophelia

D: Zephyr, Electrician, Rampage

Means the hero dropped a tier or two since the last list

Means the hero was previously unranked or went up in the tier list

Some justification/explanation: Deadwood is god tier simply because in his current incarnation he's overpowered, no way around it. He will be able to oneshot all squishy heroes until far into the mid game and will outlasthit almost anyone in mid. I'm expecting him to get hit by the nerf stick some more pretty soon.

Madman and Sandwraith have both gotten some nerfs, but not significant enough to make them lose their position as the top carries. Magebane has had comparatively fewer nerfs, which consequently bumps him up a tier.

Wretched Hag...well, what can we say about her. She got significant buffs in the last few patches, to the point where she's a solid pick in competitive games, and one of the best (if not the best, now that HBs lifevoid got nerfed) 1v2 laners. Her early-midgame ganking power is almost as good as Deadwood, and she has the potential to carry if built with that purpose.

Hellbringers earlygame got neutered pretty badly, but he makes up for it by having even more of a presence in teamfights with AoE Death Boil.

Pebbles can rape the solo mid lane, and can generally be a god in early-midgame where he will oneshot all squishy heroes. He plays similarly to Deadwood and Devourer, but his effectiveness sits somewhere in between them. He still has the AoE stun initiation going for him in lategame.

Puppet Master and Forsaken Archer are suddenly S-tier semi-carries, and while the latter got a good amount of buffs, Puppet Master has acquired this position solely because of the shift in the metagame. Lately, games have been less about hard carries ricing all day, and more about carrying with heroes that are strong earlygame contenders as well.

Predator got bumped up a tier as well, for the same reasons as Puppet Master, and is now a solid, if situational, competitive pick to counter certain hero line-ups.

Slither was always an insane earlygamer, but with the latest patch he's easily able to 1v1 any hero lower than level 6. His midgame potential has gone up as well due to the ward buff and the regen negation on his orb.

Swiftblade is finally a solid pick in competitive games as well, maintaining his earlygame power, but now being able to keep the momentum in mid and lategame.

Blacksmith has become a sort of pseudo-Hellbringer, with more single-target burst damage and less AoE capability.

Moonqueen can now outlasthit everyone with the Aura/Stats build and still get everything out of her ult. She can start neutraling amazingly early and is generally a semi-carry that will get big really fast, but she still pales in comparison to some of the higher tier carries.

Devourer is now a genuine threat in earlygame as well, but is still hampered by his pathetic mana pool. He now has the potential to firstblood pretty easily, but his effectiveness tapers off as the game goes on and his ult will get easily interrupted.

I'm still not sold on new KotF. He just doesn't DO enough for your team when his ult isn't up, and getting a non-carry with almost zero ganking potential is a liability for almost every team. Effective turtle hero, but gets outshined by Kraken in that respect.

[Vilecat]

Polly's new ult is pretty sweet, and makes ganking and teamfights easier/better. Ult > sheep > lol

I'm really liking him again.

Seen a lot more pudges in pubs now.

[Tensei]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faZwaiCA2TE&hd=1 <3

[Dhsu]

Haha, epic Rambo KS at the end.

[eternal Zero]

One main thing I've noticed, Tensei, is that you cancel a lot of attacks with spells. Usually in moments where you want to be killing as quickly as possible. In moments like those let the attack finish then quickly animation cancel into a spell then animation cancel into an attack. You lose DPS that way and sometimes it's really crucial.

[Capa Langley]

Okay, I haven't played since the last 2 patches. What's new?

[Tensei]

Okay, I haven't played since the last 2 patches. What's new?

TL;DR: Blacksmith and Slither useful now, Deadwood still overpowered, that's the most important changes pretty much.

[zircon]

I don't think Hag is S tier because of her poor animation + damage range. Also if she doesn't get off to a good start, she's less effective than heroes like TB or Pyro which, even if they're level 3, still scale very well (AOE stun / channel interrupt / %-based damage.)

Devourer is better than all of you give him credit for. He is a potent last-hitter because, unlike Pebbles, his higher STR/AGI gain and base STR/AGI allow him to withstand much more harass. He can get higher Magic armor very early which, combined with the STR gain on the passive, allows him to balloon to insane HP levels without any HP boosting items. If you just get a bottle, his mana pool is not really an issue. Unlike Pebbles, who needs 240 mana for his combo, Devourer only needs 140 to Hook (Decay is free or extremely cheap.) Plus, Devourer can harass really easily with Decay alone which, again, is free.

His Ult can be interrupted but now that you can max Decay and his passive earlier, it's now a death sentence to most any INT or AGI character. At level 6, a Devoured target is taking 525 magic damage over the course of 3 seconds. This doesn't count initial hook damage (100), damage from Decay while the hook is pulling them closer (~25-50), or the Decay damage that they'll take after Devour has ended (a lot.)

Devourer's effectiveness only increases as the game goes on, because thanks to his insane early-mid game, he'll skyrocket into the 2k-3k+ range before level 20 - more than many heroes even WITH a heart - also increasing his auto attack damage. Since he really doesn't need many items to be powerful, he can afford to get a Mock or a SotM, depending on the team he's facing.

[BardicKnowledge]

Lategame, devourer doesn't fulfill his role of ganker / support as well as pebbles because devourer lacks an AOE stun. Similarly, in the lategame channeled ults really lose their effectiveness as your chance of maintaining it goes down in teamfights. Pebs can hit for 500 magic damage and 250 physical damage without channeling, and his portkey distance is about the same range as hook.

Edit: If you're going to try to drag out the game to a full hour by turtling and become a semi-carry with devourer, then he's the way to go. If you want your game to end around the 45:00 mark, pick Pebbles or Deadwood instead.

[zircon]

It's unrealistic in lategame teamfights to expect that you'll get a perfect toss -> stalagmites combo on anyone, but moreover once Pebbles uses his two things, that's it. His HP is going to be worse, his armor is going to be worse, and his auto attacks are less effective. Toss/Stalag and your usefulness is done. Meanwhile, Devourer attacks faster + harder and is doing 100 damage per second to everyone in the battle. Not bad.

Devourer is also a better initiator because he can pull someone out of the battle and make it 4v5, like Andromeda, but with more safety.

[Rambo]

Haha, epic Rambo KS at the end.

fml. Honestly. I had no idea that deadwood was so capable of fucking someone up that hard. When I saw him going in I clicked that spell to slow tort so that deadwood could chase. Then I was watching my flank as I went in and at the last bloody instance I saw that he was already dead and couldn't cancel my attack in time. I really did feel terrible.

Anyway. I liked the video.

[Tensei]

You're giving Devourer way more credit than he deserves. Remember that because of his terrible manapool, earlygame inlane you can fire off exactly one hook before you're back to gulping down mana potions, not to mention that you're not only relying on your own skill to land hooks but also on enemies to, well, be dumb and not stand in the right position/not dance. Oh, and he has close to no skills that would facilitate runewhoring for him on top of his terrible base movement speed.

I think it's funny how you're saying Pebbles can't get a reliable combo off in lategame (which he definitely can, considering portal key), while you praise devourer for his initiation . In an ideal world where you land each and every hook, maybe, but again, it's very reliant on your opponent's skill level.

Also auto-attacks less effective? Pebbles hits like a ton of bricks in lategame thanks to his ult (pun again not intended) and will usually have daemonic breastplate ready. They're about the same when it comes to attack animation but Pebbles has significantly higher base damage.

Devourer is still nowhere near the early-midgame force that Pebbles is (in competitive games).

Oh and Hag may have a long windup animation, but very high projectile speed. I do agree that you need the +8 int (2x mark of the novice, 2x minor totem) in your starting build to fix her abysmal base damage. That said, I have never had trouble lasthitting with her even when facing a double lane (as a solo). I'd also say it's close to impossible to NOT get a good start with Hag provided you can have a solo lane, because it's not like you'll die early on with that blink.

[zircon]

Devourer's initial mana is bad but you don't need to spam hook that much early. Again, provided you have a solo lane it's quite easy to dominate and harass with only one or two uses before you get your Bottle. Once you do get that, no more mana problems.

Pebbles definitely CAN'T get off a reliable combo because that's the nature of his abilities. If your opponents are complete dumbasses and spread out completely with no creeps around, sure, your toss won't pick up the wrong guy. However, if they're all grouped up w/ creeps, there is no way in hell you can even close to guarantee that you'll take out the right guy. Plus he has less HP and armor than Devourer and he has to put himself in the middle of enemies to initiate. Devourer can just sit back and relax while your team rapes the guy he hooked.

I insist that he's more of a force as an auto attacker because he has way better AGI gain and his base damage will balloon as high as Pebbles', except without the ASPD loss. Also I tend to end up with reasonably high base damage on Devourer because I don't need to stock up on INT/mana items like Pebbles does (again, Pebbles is garbage if he can't use his combo - Devourer can do significant damage with Rot alone.)

[Dhsu]

On a related note, Devourer and Accursed is an awesome lane combo. Fire Shield + Decay = ROFL.

[Tensei]

If anything, Pebbles being able to combo a squishy hero lategame that is slightly seperated from the rest of the team (which isn't that rare, squishy heroes will tend to stay back a bit) has a much higher chance of occuring than, say, the entire enemy team grouping up with a creep wave, allowing a perfect behemoth initiation, who is nonetheless considered one of the best initiators all around.

Even if Pebbles can't isolate a single enemy, he can instead just port in and stun 2-3 enemies rather than trying to instagib a single hero. He's versatile when it comes to that, and that combined with his early-midgame power (which more or less matches that of Devourer) makes him a solid competitive pick. The same can't be said for Devo though.

There's no way around the fact that Devourer is one of the least reliable initiators in the game, seeing as his ability to initiate requires a significant amount of luck and a lack of awareness/skill in the enemy team, moreso than other initiators.

What's more, Devourers lategame power is completely contingent on his earlygame. You need to roam and gank successfully a lot, and again, this all depends on whether the enemy heroes are careless enough to let themselves get hooked.

If you do terribly early game with Pebbles, you might get your portal key as late as 30 minutes, but you will still be useful to your team after that point.

If you have a terrible early game with Devourer, you won't even be able to tank due to a lack of items/str and most of your use in teamfights will come from your mediocre, channeled disable.

I think the main reason why Pebbles is a competitive pick and Devourer isn't, is that he's more reliable overall.

[Tensei]

Doublepost but whatever.

Let me make clear that I have absolutely NO obligation to buy wards, courier or any support items in a pub, no matter what your preconceived notions of a 'support' hero are.

It's also exceptionally poor form to start blaming me for throwing the game when you've fed 8 deaths vs my single death in a teamfight. Me building Puzzlebox on Demented Shaman over 'support' items (Puzzlebox is a support item fyi) will have NO bearing on the game compared to the ~2k gold deficit caused by 8 deaths.

And even if I, hypothetically speaking, would have cost us the game, it's completely uncalled for to start insulting me, especially when you're playing like shit yourself. Just throwing that out there. The amount of unwarranted flak I received that game really makes me think twice about ever playing with you guys again.

Match ID 22742610

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

patch 1.66 is bringing a rework of electrician. YESSSS!!!~~

(loved playing him, and it worked often at games of my skill level, but was always painfully aware of his limitations)

[zircon]

First of all, Bardic died several times inlane because Defiler came top with a Haste rune and her ult. Due to all that ganking he was never really able to recover and farm up (no thanks to you taking up farm, more on that later.) There's really nothing you can do about that, especially when no one calls MIA and it only looks like she's been gone a second or two. The fact that we never had wards meant that we never had rune or map control, a fact which Defiler abused over and over for successful ganks. However even those things considered we did fine top lane and scored most of the team's laning phase kills, if not all of them (BS/Swift still an awesome combo.) Despite the fact that lack of rune control was seriously hurting us the entire game, you never bought wards. We can't rely on pubs to buy them, but an experienced player that we've played with hundreds of times should. Not doing so was selfish.

The fact that you died and then complained that we didn't type "MIA" instead of saying it over the mic was frustrating. You inevitably have to stop playing the game to type, and your refusal to turn off your music meant that we couldn't coordinate you via voice, which is annoying as hell. Again, selfish.

After our lanes started getting crushed by the overfed Defiler (who we couldn't do anything against due to her rune control + lack of MIA calls from mid, including the time that we thought you were there) you claim that you're going a carry build, which was no help to our team in teamfights at all. Had you built an Astrolabe or Totem we may have been able to sustain ourselves longer, as most of the fights were pretty close. Yet again, selfish.

This is all without even mentioning the fact that you generally just wandered around doing your own thing, taking the safe farm from Bardic and of course being unable to hear us and coordinate (isn't that the point of joining a game with 3 people that know each other? Not to dick around?) For the fourth time, selfish.

Essentially you cared more about preserving your K/D and doing a novelty build then actually trying to help win the game. I play HoN to win. If I'm going to mess around and not try to win, I'll do it in nostats. I don't join a game with two experienced players that I know and go Scout codex build. I don't care if it's a pub or not. What's really worst of all though is despite us asking you to turn on your sound and to buy wards, you basically just said "fuck you", despite the fact that we've been playing this game with you for awhile now, and instead wasted our time by not playing to win. You wonder why your K/D keeps going up yet your W/L is below 50 and you dropped like a rock from 1700 PSR. Maybe you should focus more on winning and less on making adversaries of your own teammates.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Less drama, more Dota.