Nekofrog Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 you want to be able to dictate the price of other people's blood sweat and tears you've said so yourself but unfortunately you've pretty much ignored everyone here who has told you how wrong you are just to hold onto your foolish belief that you know more than the everyone else the question here is not "is your work worth me paying for" it's "does your right as a consumer supercede my right as the creator" short answer: no long answer: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big giant circles Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Irrational, emotionally driven replies like that [Gwil's I mean] are generally a good sign that the thread has run it's course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I never said that. You said it, other people said it BUT NOT FUCKING ONCE DID I SAY IT! EVER!And I don't buy their shit! And I don't steal it either! So what's your problem that I have an ideal?? ARE YOU AFRAID I COULD BE RIGHT IN SOME WAY?? Or do you just not like the fact that I have a backbone and am not afraid to take a view that may be wildly unpopular and STICK TO IT? You have no fucking clue what I know or what I do. Or who I have talked to, or what I have talked to them about. Seriously guys, what I've been saying for the past, like, hour or so, is that you are putting words in her mouth, NEKOFROG especially. Seriously, READ the frikking thread. you want to be able to dictate the price of other people's blood sweat and tearsyou've said so yourself She did not say that at all in this thread. She said that you are allowed to have an opinion of what other people's things are worth (NOT DICTATE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE'S THINGS ARE WORTH, JUST HAVE AN OPINION). Everyone has their own opinion, it's just that this particular one is, in MY opinion ( and probably yours, too ) a poor one. This whole thing is a crazy spin of a misunderstanding of something BGC said. Irrational, emotionally driven replies like that [Gwil's I mean] are generally a good sign that the thread has run it's course. It's also a sign that you're getting on her nerves by putting words in her mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 All I'm gonna say is that I, apparently, make snake oil. If you want it, you can buy it. You can even get free samples. You do not, however, get all my snake oil products for free. You also shouldn't try to tell me to give it away for free, whether you like it or not. It's _my_ snake oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vagrance Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I never said that. You said it, other people said it BUT NOT FUCKING ONCE DID I SAY IT! EVER!And I don't buy their shit! And I don't steal it either! So what's your problem that I have an ideal?? ARE YOU AFRAID I COULD BE RIGHT IN SOME WAY?? Or do you just not like the fact that I have a backbone and am not afraid to take a view that may be wildly unpopular and STICK TO IT? You have no fucking clue what I know or what I do. Or who I have talked to, or what I have talked to them about. Not to sound to arrogant (which I undoubtedly will) but I can almost ensure you I've talked to more relevant people on this subject than you have. I'm talking important people inside of the scene who are the ones that keep everything turning, and I have asked them questions about the changing music scene and how to survive. That said, even they won't act like they know what's right or what's happening, the bottom line is whether the consumer gives you enough compensation of some form for the amount of effort you are putting into it. Also, this thread should be locked because this conversation is going nowhere and people are just going to end on a standstill with each other. A collection of musicians with (admittedly or not) ego issues arguing about something that affects them personally will never end well. And yes I am including myself in that classification of well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilendiel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 the question here is not "is your work worth me paying for" it's "does your right as a consumer supercede my right as the creator" No it doesn't supercede the right of the creator. The creator can take whatever he wants and the consumer can choose to accept it or not. But without the consumer there is no creator. Music fans are not a goddamn money farm. I'm sick of musicians who think they are god's gift to the earth and disrespect the people who PUT FOOD ON THEIR TABLES. You can't eat music, that's for sure. And I'm sick of people who want to dive into the music industry to make millions and treat consumers like cattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekofrog Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 reading this thread, you clearly have been a big proponent of the "creator has less rights over the property" idea and to deny it now is utter bullshit you're still equating music with a variety of things. snake oil, food, cars, etc. and those are all bullshit analogies no one here is disrespecting the consumer. no one is acting like gods gift to anything. shit, the album i'm working on now has already been announced to be free, so my desire to make money off of my own shit is almost nil. that said, no one has any right, not even the consumer, to dictate that the manhours that i put into creating my shit is only worth "x" and for only "x" number of years they have the right to not buy it and that's their only right in disagreeing with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilendiel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 reading this thread, you clearly have been a big proponent of the "creator has less rights over the property" idea and to deny it now is utter bullshityou're still equating music with a variety of things. snake oil, food, cars, etc. and those are all bullshit analogies no one here is disrespecting the consumer. no one is acting like gods gift to anything. shit, the album i'm working on now has already been announced to be free, so my desire to make money off of my own shit is almost nil. that said, no one has any right, not even the consumer, to dictate that the manhours that i put into creating my shit is only worth "x" and for only "x" number of years they have the right to not buy it and that's their only right in disagreeing with me. It should be obvious that if it doesn't apply to you then it isn't about you. Thats what the word 'who' is for. Learn to read instead of hanging on to what you already thought I say before I say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big giant circles Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 No it doesn't supercede the right of the creator. The creator can take whatever he wants and the consumer can choose to accept it or not. But without the consumer there is no creator. Music fans are not a goddamn money farm. I'm sick of musicians who think they are god's gift to the earth and disrespect the people who PUT FOOD ON THEIR TABLES. You can't eat music, that's for sure. And I'm sick of people who want to dive into the music industry to make millions and treat consumers like cattle. Can you give a specific example of what you're talking about? At what point of success does a musician start "money farming" their clients/customers/listeners? I mean, if you're talking about say, Kanye West, yeah he's a douche and thinks he's God's gift to all listeners everywhere and that he knows what's best for everybody. Otherwise, what are you referring to specifically here? I am asking in total sincerity here, because you make it sound like if somebody doesn't have much money, then they should have special access to music that others are paying for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 But without the consumer there is no creator. Music fans are not a goddamn money farm. Without the consumer we musicians and producers must get a dayjob, if we don't have one already. But we are still creators. We just might not share our work with you. When that goes for every musician and producer on the planet, it adds up to being _your_ loss more than ours. The best thing you can do to fight the "musicians who think they are god's gift to the earth" is to support the artists who don't think they are "god's gift to the earth". By support I mean pay for their work. Make the _artists_ more popular than the products of the music industry machine. By products I mean "artists". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilendiel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Can you give a specific example of what you're talking about? At what point of success does a musician start "money farming" their clients/customers/listeners?I mean, if you're talking about say, Kanye West, yeah he's a douche and thinks he's God's gift to all listeners everywhere and that he knows what's best for everybody. Otherwise, what are you referring to specifically here? I am asking in total sincerity here, because you make it sound like if somebody doesn't have much money, then they should have special access to music that others are paying for. Let me put it this way. I love music. Music is my life pretty much... and I am literally in tears right now... I simply think it should be more than only a product. I have no problem with an honest musician making honest money... I never did... but it actually hurts me to see record labels that rob artists, or CERTAIN artists who have no interest in the people they are sold to... and especially those who don't even like their own fans or expect to be worshiped or pampered excessively... Even some MUSICIANS dislike this crap. Not every musician... but there are plenty of songs about selling out. Some of them by star artists, like Blues Traveller. I think they are good because at least they are somewhat honest! Yeah, they make a living.... and I have bought their music because I feel they try to be honest along with making money... there's nothing wrong with that. And the way things are is what makes all this possible.. they get away with this because there is nothing really stopping them.... Anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salluz Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Support the artists that you love: buy their music if they're that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 you want to be able to dictate the price of other people's blood sweat and tears dude, you cry about your songs? emmmoooooooooooooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekofrog Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Let me put it this way. I love music. Music is my life pretty much... and I am literally in tears right now...I simply think it should be more than only a product. I have no problem with an honest musician making honest money... I never did... but it actually hurts me to see record labels that rob artists, or CERTAIN artists who have no interest in the people they are sold to... and especially those who don't even like their own fans or expect to be worshiped or pampered excessively... Even some MUSICIANS dislike this crap. Not every musician... but there are plenty of songs about selling out. Some of them by star artists, like Blues Traveller. I think they are good because at least they are somewhat honest! Yeah, they make a living.... and I have bought their music because I feel they try to be honest along with making money... there's nothing wrong with that. And the way things are is what makes all this possible.. they get away with this because there is nothing really stopping them.... Anyway... you'll get over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big giant circles Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Let me put it this way. I love music. Music is my life pretty much... and I am literally in tears right now...I simply think it should be more than only a product. I have no problem with an honest musician making honest money... I never did... but it actually hurts me to see record labels that rob artists, or CERTAIN artists who have no interest in the people they are sold to... and especially those who don't even like their own fans or expect to be worshiped or pampered excessively... Even some MUSICIANS dislike this crap. Not every musician... but there are plenty of songs about selling out. Some of them by star artists, like Blues Traveller. I think they are good because at least they are somewhat honest! Yeah, they make a living.... and I have bought their music because I feel they try to be honest along with making money... there's nothing wrong with that. And the way things are is what makes all this possible.. they get away with this because there is nothing really stopping them.... Anyway... Well, I'd say most of the people on this board love music too. And honestly, I'm likely to buy music no matter who/where it came from if it speaks to me. If I hear a song on the radio tomorrow by Britney Spears and it embodies everything that I look for in music, then I'm probably going to buy it. If I didn't SOLELY for the reason that I felt that she didn't deserve my money, that's pretty reprehensible, wouldn't you say? And it would make me dishonest. If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that you're just trying to make a pull for under-appreciated music/musicians. And regardless of what side of this issue we're on, I'm sure we can all respect that. It's only in fairness that people have a right to create music for any purpose they see fit, whether it's a service to someone or just for the sake of expression itself. But the terms of it's creation shouldn't affect the value we give it once we've heard it. I agree that good music from small/poor/unlikely places should be supported so that they can make more of it. If some grass-roots kid makes awesome music on the internet but can't afford to pay his rent, then I hope that he does get support so that he CAN keep making music. If he happens to get recognition and sign a record label, and then starts touring and making 6+ digit figures, does that mean he's money-farming? No. He still deserves his success whether he's reached 10 listeners or 10 million. The core message here shouldn't be "support the artists who deserve it", but "support the artists you love. PERIOD." Whether or not they're making millions of dollars should have no impact on your perception of their music. TL:DR? Read Salluz's post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekofrog Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 dude, you cry about your songs? emmmoooooooooooooooo I ALsO CUT MYSELF WHAT YOU GONNA DO :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 you want to be able to dictate the price of other people's blood sweat and tears dude, you cry about your songs? emmmoooooooooooooooo ps. man up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hy Bound Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Support the artists that you love: buy their music if they're that good. I'm pretty sure thats the answer everyone on this thread is giving... This sums it up perfectly. If you don't like the way someone conducts themselves, their business, their music or treats their fans, then DO NOT, i repeat, DO NOT support them. You are only adding to the problem if you do. That is all the power you have as a consumer and that is a much greater power than you are giving it credit for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilendiel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Well, I'd say most of the people on this board love music too. And honestly, I'm likely to buy music no matter who/where it came from if it speaks to me. If I hear a song on the radio tomorrow by Britney Spears and it embodies everything that I look for in music, then I'm probably going to buy it. If I didn't SOLELY for the reason that I felt that she didn't deserve my money, that's pretty reprehensible, wouldn't you say? And it would make me dishonest. If I had to guess at this point, I'd say that you're just trying to make a pull for under-appreciated music/musicians. And regardless of what side of this issue we're on, I'm sure we can all respect that. It's only in fairness that people have a right to create music for any purpose they see fit, whether it's a service to someone or just for the sake of expression itself. But the terms of it's creation shouldn't affect the value we give it once we've heard it. I agree that good music from small/poor/unlikely places should be supported so that they can make more of it. If some grass-roots kid makes awesome music on the internet but can't afford to pay his rent, then I hope that he does get support so that he CAN keep making music. If he happens to get recognition and sign a record label, and then starts touring and making 6+ digit figures, does that mean he's money-farming? No. He still deserves his success whether he's reached 10 listeners or 10 million. The core message here shouldn't be "support the artists who deserve it", but "support the artists you love. PERIOD." Whether or not they're making millions of dollars should have no impact on your perception of their music. TL:DR? Read Salluz's post Yeah... you're right... I get upset too much. I'm thinking more about principal than practice... hate to say it but maybe it's because I'm an excitable female... I dunno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big giant circles Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 It's fine to think in ideals as long as you don't let it skew your perspective of reality or the *big picture* etc. Anyway, so if we can all vote YES on "Support the music you love" then we can wrap this up and then all go have punch and pie over at neblix's house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 It's fine to think in ideals as long as you don't let it skew your perspective of reality or the *big picture* etc.Anyway, so if we can all vote YES on "Support the music you love" then we can wrap this up and then all go have punch and pie over at neblix's house. I come back from playin xbox and I find people invite themselves to my house for a punch-pie party... jeezies... *goes out to buy some punch and pie* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklink42 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I think the biggest problem is that the title of the thread says "music industry" where I think she meant to say "recording industry". Maybe I'm wrong on that, but it sounded, and still sounds, like the core of the issue is the way in which music is produced and distributed, as opposed to artists acting like assholes and demanding things they don't deserve(which has no solution, because that's just how some artists are). And I'd say on that point, there a lot of things springing up right now that mitigate that point, and are slowly changing the way we access and share music. Obviously we're never going to have a free market on music, but I like sites like CDbaby and others that let people put out their music they want to, and charge fair price for it. But I like the consensus everyone's come to as well, because really that is the best way to change something you don't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José the Bronx Rican Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 PREFACE: I'm likely late with this as everyone seems reconciled, but I did all this typing, and I'll be damned if I let it go to waste. I'm pretty certain this discussion has gone on everywhere else to the same degree. Some folks don't realize that although the so-called "music industry" has been around for quite a long time, GREED itself has been around since the very beginning of human anything. And it's so easy to blame labels and everyone else who is NOT the artist we like, but greed is what brings us where we are now, NOT ONLY label greed, but ARTIST greed and even CONSUMER greed. Yeah, I said it... all the piracy proves it. It's also easy to say we should have a new system for getting music out that helps "good" artists more, naively thinking greedy fools won't game that system to death too, and bring us back to square one. For every person that tries to come up honest, six others already cheated their way ahead of you. Life ain't fair; I learned that at age six. The industry is actually much better in certain ways at present: remember the old days when Black artists couldn't google the word "residuals"? There just aren't enough of us out there with the kind of good will needed to change things. We all sit around sometimes going, "why the hell do people like this crap?", forgetting we are sitting VERY deep into a minority opinion. A lot of us see a problem with what we hear on the radio; a hell of a lot more see no problem whatsoever. That's why it's called "popular" music. I have more than my share of guilty pleasures in my Zen player. We are well within our right to argue our opinion over who deserves what, but most labels have the know-how and the resources to get people out there, and the more successful artists they collect through their techniques, the more know-how and resources they gather. They're huge companies for a reason; they deserve a little something. I like to think some of us wish sgx luck with his label, and the same goes for DCT's Urbanizm, and that they come up big in much the same way. That's the moral here: we do what we can to help who we like, and, as the saying goes, "let the babies have their bottles." BTW, the reason dead artists make money is because their music ISN'T dead... and neither are their families or their estates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilendiel Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Dark and José, you are right... I think the real REAL problem is I believe I am clear when I'm about as transparent as mud.... then I wonder why ppl are yelling at me for saying things I never really wanted to say in the first place... then I get combative but it's my own fault. >.< Anyway... I think this should be locked.. and I apologize again... seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olarin Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 BTW, the reason dead artists make money is because their music ISN'T dead... and neither are their families or their estates. True. However, sometimes it isn't even the estate or family making money off the music, and it doesn't seem fair. The problem is, if you don't let anyone make money off of an artist's music when they're dead, that limits the potential rights of the artist themselves when they're alive. I have the right to license my own songs and recordings; but if I don't want to mess with that, I also have the right to sell those rights to someone else for a quick buck, and let them try their luck at publicizing and distributing my stuff, and it isn't necessarily fair to them if I die tomorrow and those rights vaporize. This is where a lot of the problem with fighting the 'big evil companies' lies - you can't pick and choose whose rights you protect. Either music is copyrightable, ownable, and licensable, or it isn't. Much of the problem lies with artist education - you have to know enough not to sign a deal that will rip you off in the long run, and that requires a lot of research as well as a certain amount of caution and common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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