Final Fantasy XIII

[Vivi22]

...There are FFXIII fanboys?

I don't think anyone here is saying it's their favorite FF by a longshot. Definitely the prettiest with great battle system and a decent plot(until it goes apeshit towards the end of the second disc), but best FF ever? I think the entire internet can concur that this is not the case.

There are FFXIII fanboys as hard as that is to believe.

I must say though that I wouldn't even be so generous as to say that it had a great battle system or even a decent story. I felt the story spent literally the majority of the game with the characters utterly directionless and making decisions that made little real sense for their backstory and personality just so the writer could get the story to unfold the way they wanted. I also think it has the worst battle system, possibly in the history of the series. Character building was practically non-existent, which wouldn't necessarily be bad if the battle system were engaging and filled with strategy. Instead I flew through the game alternating between three paradigms and mashing auto-battle. The few times I had difficulty it was usually because I was hit by a one hit kill attack I couldn't anticipate and was prepared for when I redid the battle. A system that consists of me making the same three decisions over and over is pretty much devoid of strategy, and it's not even engaging since auto-battle does everything so well which means I'm not even racing against the clock to enter commands. I've never felt so bored by a battle system that tried so hard to convince me it was fast paced.

That being said, the whole linearity argument is getting pretty old, as that's pretty much a staple of JRPGs as a whole since FFX, which isn't to say that you aren't right about it being one big corridor, but a certain degree of linearity is to be expected when playing a JRPG.

As for the rest of your complaints, well they're perfectly valid. I personally didn't have that big of a problem with not having NPCs around or huge towns to explore, in fact I actually liked the fact that they removed most of that fluff(because like Jeremy Parish pointed out on the ATB podcast, he thinks that SE doesn't really do towns well, and I tend to agree).

I agree that there's nothing wrong with linearity as a design choice when it's done well. Unfortunately I didn't feel it was done well here at all. Aside from going into the menu to allocate CP there was pretty much nothing to do outside of battle except run along the path. The areas literally served no purpose beyond being story backdrops and moving the player from one battle to another and one cutscene to another. They were empty and sterile, and not the least bit engrossing. I didn't even really enjoy looking at them that much when I realized (quite quickly) that they served no purpose and most of it was little more than wallpaper.

Even though most JRPG's are linear, they always provide something to do outside of battle when you're running around, moving from one town to the next, whether it's exploring dungeons for treasure or chatting up the locals in a new town. Or an even better example would be linear shooters like COD which supposedly were inspiration for FFXIII's linearity. Part of why linear levels aren't a bad thing in those games is that they not only let the developer control the pace and the action, but the levels themselves are a part of the gameplay, whether it's just providing the player cover, or ways to flank the enemy.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me mind you, but that's pretty much how I felt about everything in this game. I would even go so far as to say it's the worst JRPG I've played in over a decade.

[Tinus]

swap discs constantly? i guess you never played mass effect 2.

I did. But you're right, I guess I exaggerated on that one. Although when I'd taken out the ME2 disc to play some other game, I'd often forget which disc I had been playing on, so I ended up having to swap more often than that.

Anyway, I was trying to say: I don't really mind games with multiple discs if you progress through the discs in order. I even kind of like it since it gives you an extra sense of progression. But if I have to swap the same disc in multiple times in a single playthrough, it tends to annoy me.

[relyanCe]

i think a lot of the "city/character/world immersion" complaints people have with ffXIII stem from not paying proper attention to the plot.

without spoiling any real details:

1. The characters are all on the run from the (absurdly powerful) government from the very start of the game. Sitting around in a city is counterproductive to the whole "don't get caught" idea, and the one time this actually happens (note: you can interact with people in this section as well), guess what? They get caught.

2. The characters spend from a point very early into the game till pretty much the end living on borrowed time, trying to avert a fate worse than death. A sense of urgency and lack of world immersion and casual chitchat should be expected. Granted, there are parts where they do sit around and talk for no real reason except to at least try to develop the characters, and these do indeed feel contrived.

Note:I haven't finished the game yet. Still in taejin's tower blowing robots up with Ruinga and Thundaga (oooooh shiny!).

I dont think people are actually saying "OMG NO INTERACTION". They just don't know the right words for "OMG NO PLOT/GAMEPLAY SEGREGATION" and resort to the former.

Gripes with characterization, I can understand. They definitely stepped back from the less-exaggerated characters of FFXII.

[Vivi22]

i think a lot of the "city/character/world immersion" complaints people have with ffXIII stem from not paying proper attention to the plot.

without spoiling any real details:

1. The characters are all on the run from the (absurdly powerful) government from the very start of the game. Sitting around in a city is counterproductive to the whole "don't get caught" idea, and the one time this actually happens (note: you can interact with people in this section as well), guess what? They get caught.

2. The characters spend from a point very early into the game till pretty much the end living on borrowed time, trying to avert a fate worse than death. A sense of urgency and lack of world immersion and casual chitchat should be expected. Granted, there are parts where they do sit around and talk for no real reason except to at least try to develop the characters, and these do indeed feel contrived.

Note:I haven't finished the game yet. Still in taejin's tower blowing robots up with Ruinga and Thundaga (oooooh shiny!).

I dont think people are actually saying "OMG NO INTERACTION". They just don't know the right words for "OMG NO PLOT/GAMEPLAY SEGREGATION" and resort to the former.

Gripes with characterization, I can understand. They definitely stepped back from the less-exaggerated characters of FFXII.

They can explain it away with any kind of plot details they want, but a bad gameplay idea (or in this case an idea with no gameplay) is still a bad idea. They could have tweaked the story easily to fit a world with more substance and ways for the player to interact with it. Instead they went the other way by using the plot to justify an idea that sees the player having almost no interaction with the areas they visit. And it really is a case of having almost no interaction with the world of FFXIII. At least no meaningful interaction beyond running and fighting. Writing in plot elements to explain it doesn't excuse it.

[Mirby]

If memory serves, another reason there aren't any real towns like there were in previous installments was that the developers found it too difficult to render them in HD.

Also why we won't be seeing FF7PS3 any time soon.

[Sixto]

...There are FFXIII fanboys?

I don't think anyone here is saying it's their favorite FF by a longshot.

I don't know if I'm a fanboy, but XIII certainly is my favorite. Although I've only ever played XI, a tiny bit of X, and Crisis Core. I did just start FF III on PSP, though. I'd try others but I just hate random battles and turn-based battle systems. Not to mention the old graphics.

[relyanCe]

They can explain it away with any kind of plot details they want, but a bad gameplay idea (or in this case an idea with no gameplay) is still a bad idea. They could have tweaked the story easily to fit a world with more substance and ways for the player to interact with it. Instead they went the other way by using the plot to justify an idea that sees the player having almost no interaction with the areas they visit. And it really is a case of having almost no interaction with the world of FFXIII. At least no meaningful interaction beyond running and fighting. Writing in plot elements to explain it doesn't excuse it.

I'm not squeenix's PR, i'm not "excusing" anything, and neither is Square-Enix. I'm telling people why (from the standpoint of a writer) the game was developed in the way it was and what they're really complaining about. They built a narrative, and then constructed the game around the narrative, just like you build a TV show or a movie or a book or any other narrative medium. If you don't like the way it goes, then you're probably playing the wrong game.

The point I'm trying to make is that it would be out of place and entirely out of character for the protags presented in the plot to simply mill about in cities talking to people just because you the player expect them to. The developers likely saw this coming, and stuck to their guns regardless. Hell, they actually DID write in a completely random plot element just for people who like side-stuff (the mark sidequests).

I'm very impressed by Square-Enix for this game. It breaks genre rules and breaks them well. Unfortunately, some people (or a lot of people) simply can't stand the idea of the rules being broken, I guess.

You're idea that they wrote the plot to excuse game elements is almost certainly baseless and completely false, because frankly, that's not how it works.

If memory serves, another reason there aren't any real towns like there were in previous installments was that the developers found it too difficult to render them in HD.

Also why we won't be seeing FF7PS3 any time soon.

thank god.

I don't know if I'm a fanboy, but XIII certainly is my favorite. Although I've only ever played XI, a tiny bit of X, and Crisis Core. I did just start FF III on PSP, though. I'd try others but I just hate random battles and turn-based battle systems. Not to mention the old graphics.

watch your words, Sixto. the JRPG Gods have smitten foolish mortals for less caustic statements.

[Vivi22]

I'm not squeenix's PR, i'm not "excusing" anything

I wasn't trying to say you were. I was simply saying that explaining it in the story doesn't make it okay. I actually have seen people try to excuse it that way which is why I wanted to make the distinction and my thoughts on it clear.

I'm telling people why (from the standpoint of a writer) the game was developed in the way it was and what they're really complaining about. They built a narrative, and then constructed the game around the narrative

I can't speak for Square specifically in this case, but the usual situation in the industry is the other way around. The game will be largely designed or at least have a pretty solid direction before the writer even comes on board. I'm not saying that's definitely the case here, but I would not be surprised in the least if they decided early on that the game wouldn't feature towns and other distractions; before the story was anywhere near finalized. Given that almost every FF ever made has undergone many (sometimes dramatic) story changes during development and the fact that they would need to have at least some idea of what they need the engine to do before they'd even get to the game, it's very possible gameplay design preceded story points here.

Regardless, they could have easily written out the method of tracking the characters and altered the conditions in which the main characters are racing against the clock to fit with a more fleshed out world if they wanted to. I'd bet money the decision regarding gameplay came before the story explanations, though we'll never be sure either way.

You're idea that they wrote the plot to excuse game elements is almost certainly baseless and completely false, because frankly, that's not how it works.

See above, I've seen numerous articles from game writers over the years who talk specifically about the fact that the story often comes last in development within the industry. That certainly flies in the face of the idea that that's not how things work with a lot of companies.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them trying to break genre conventions. I'm not even trying to argue that a more fleshed out world would make sense in the context of the established story. I'm just saying that I feel they did linearity poorly. Whether they did it to support the plot or wrote the plot to support the design really isn't the issue despite this little back and forth about it.

[relyanCe]

I wasn't trying to say you were. I was simply saying that explaining it in the story doesn't make it okay. I actually have seen people try to excuse it that way which is why I wanted to make the distinction and my thoughts on it clear.

I can't speak for Square specifically in this case, but the usual situation in the industry is the other way around. The game will be largely designed or at least have a pretty solid direction before the writer even comes on board. I'm not saying that's definitely the case here, but I would not be surprised in the least if they decided early on that the game wouldn't feature towns and other distractions; before the story was anywhere near finalized. Given that almost every FF ever made has undergone many (sometimes dramatic) story changes during development and the fact that they would need to have at least some idea of what they need the engine to do before they'd even get to the game, it's very possible gameplay design preceded story points here.

Regardless, they could have easily written out the method of tracking the characters and altered the conditions in which the main characters are racing against the clock to fit with a more fleshed out world if they wanted to. I'd bet money the decision regarding gameplay came before the story explanations, though we'll never be sure either way.

See above, I've seen numerous articles from game writers over the years who talk specifically about the fact that the story often comes last in development within the industry. That certainly flies in the face of the idea that that's not how things work with a lot of companies.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them trying to break genre conventions. I'm not even trying to argue that a more fleshed out world would make sense in the context of the established story. I'm just saying that I feel they did linearity poorly. Whether they did it to support the plot or wrote the plot to support the design really isn't the issue despite this little back and forth about it.

I'll accept that, as you're either supporting your opinions with more than "I just don't like it", or just out and out saying that you just don't like it, and those are both perfectly justifiable reasons for why you, of course, don't like it. I just can't stand when people complain about things for reasons that have nothing to do with what they're complaining about, and what I try to do is point out the actual reasons they're complaining, not tell them to stop.

[Gollgagh]

I did just start FF III on PSP, though

no you didn't

you either started FF I or II on PSP, or you started FF III on DS

[prophetik music]

unless he's got a GBA emulator or a PSX2PSP version on his psp, and is talking about ffvi.

[Brandon Strader]

unless he's got a GBA emulator or a PSX2PSP version on his psp, and is talking about ffvi.

Well FF6 was known as FF3 in the US on the SNES wasn't it? ... Guy just is crazy in brain.

[Kenogu Labz]

Well FF6 was known as FF3 in the US on the SNES wasn't it? ... Guy just is crazy in brain.

Fixed that for ya.

[Gollgagh]

Well FF6 was known as FF2 in the US on the SNES wasn't it? ... Guy just is crazy in brain.

heh I thought everyone had this straight by now

FF1 J = FF1 US

FF2 J =

FF3 J =

FF4 J = FF2 US

FF5 J =

FF6 J = FF3 US

unless he's got a GBA emulator or a PSX2PSP version on his psp, and is talking about ffvi.

well he said he didn't like old graphics so I ruled out GBA

[Brandon Strader]

heh I thought everyone had this straight by now

FF1 J = FF1 US

FF2 J =

FF3 J =

FF4 J = FF2 US

FF5 J =

FF6 J = FF3 US

well he said he didn't like old graphics so I ruled out GBA

FF5 is on the FF Anthology (PSX) and GBA

1 & 2 are togther in Dawn of Souls..

There was a FF3 remake on DS!

Don't leave them slots blankened

[Gollgagh]

right, I was talking about initial releases

[Mirby]

FF1 - FF1 (NES, PSX, WSC, GBA, PSP)

FF2 - FF2 (FC, PSX, WSC, GBA, PSP)

FF3 - FF3 (FC, DS)

FF4 - FF2/4 (SNES, SFC, PSX, WSC, GBA, DS)

FF5 - FF5 (SFC, PSX, GBA)

FF6 - FF3/6 (SNES, SFC, PSX, GBA)

There are DS emulators for the PSP, if memory serves.

All releases I know of, just so there's no more arguing.

[Gollgagh]

good lord the entire purpose of my earlier post was simplification

which is why I didn't put anything about re-releases to avoid obfuscating everything

Also the "DS emulators" on the PSP are proof of concept only. They do not work at all from a gaming standpoint and certainly do not play anything worth anything. Full Stop.

[relyanCe]

dear god what just happened

[Sixto]

no you didn't

you either started FF I or II on PSP, or you started FF III on DS

Oh yeah, I forgot I got a DS Lite recently.

[Gollgagh]

*smug grin*

[Fishy]

i think a lot of the "city/character/world immersion" complaints people have with ffXIII stem from not paying proper attention to the plot.

I'm telling people why (from the standpoint of a writer) the game was developed in the way it was and what they're really complaining about.

I know what I'm complaining about and I payed close attention to the plot. I don't need you to correct my argument, nor did I ask you to.

I'm well aware that the plot was probably chosen on purpose to avoid the whole cities thing. You also spend a lot of time as a fugitive in FFXII and FFX, and they did the opposite and found ways for you to get around cities despite that. They could have easily tailored features of the plot to allow for cities, they just clearly didn't want to as it's probably way too expensive to make a proper city these days.

[Brandon Strader]

FF1 - FF1 (NES, PSX, WSC, GBA, PSP)

FF2 - FF2 (FC, PSX, WSC, GBA, PSP)

FF3 - FF3 (FC, DS)

FF4 - FF2/4 (SNES, SFC, PSX, WSC, GBA, DS)

FF5 - FF5 (SFC, PSX, GBA)

FF6 - FF3/6 (SNES, SFC, PSX, GBA)

There are DS emulators for the PSP, if memory serves.

All releases I know of, just so there's no more arguing.

You forgot the iPhone. LOL

[Mirby]

good lord the entire purpose of my earlier post was simplification

which is why I didn't put anything about re-releases to avoid obfuscating everything

Also the "DS emulators" on the PSP are proof of concept only. They do not work at all from a gaming standpoint and certainly do not play anything worth anything. Full Stop.

1) I did it so other morons (if there are any others; I'm not counting you as one, Gollgagh) wouldn't be all WASN'T THIS ALSO ON THIS?

2) I never said they worked; I just said they existed. There's a difference.

[Brandon Strader]

Who are YOU calling MORAN

But yeah, back on topic to the actual game of Final Fantasy 13... I found the open world bit to be very boring and thought it leaves very little incentive to continue the game at that point.